Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Building a weapon? Have a new design or helpful hint you would like to share? Please ask advice or give advice here!

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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Kendall » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:26 am

Let's talk about flails and their chain lengths.

About half a year ago I saw a well known documentary about a game* that is fairly similar to dagorhir. In fact if it had not been for two main factors I would have thought that I was looking at dag during the fighting. Those factors were A) the level of effort put into garb and characterization (their worst just looked a lot better then out worst), and B) that their flails had much longer ropes.

Since seeing this I have done some research and discovered a few relevant facts. Firstly that in the game I mentioned above, they build the flails so that they are safe to strike the crown of the head (presumably to mitigate the lack of control inherent in such a weapon), and secondly that dagorhir actually had longer chained flails back in the day.

So what's stopping us from enjoying such a weapon today?

SAFTY
Maybe I am just naive, but I just don't see a flail chain in the neighborhood of 10-12 inches choking anyone, especially if the size of the head of a flail could be required to be a certain minimum size to reduce the possibility of it completing a circle around a throat. In addition the existence of such a weapon in a comparable game implies that it is at least fairly safe. Six inches is certainly a safer number, but at what point are we being overly conservative about what we would consider safe enough?

PLAYABILITY
Would such a weapon be better at wrapping around stuff? Yes. Would that make it a OP weapon? I don't think it would. Sure the guy with the flail would get one pretty good shot at you, but this reword comes with an intense risk, if that shot is a failure, the longer chain will make the flail much slower to be readied for the next attack. Honestly I imagine such a weapon being a very poor competitive choice for the average fighter, your defense becomes limited, and you trade the ability to throw several shots for one tricky one.

REALISM.
real flails could and often did have longer chains then what we do in dag, and if they are built to be head shot safe they would allow a realistic target that is harder to hit safely with an "anchored" swing.

So what do you guys think? Are the longer flails I describe not fit for our game, or do they merit play testing? Anyone with first hand experiences with a weapon like this please speak up and share.

*I would name the game but I'm not sure if it has been censored.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Cassius » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:38 am

We very briefly playtested 8" flail chains in Southlands.  With an 8" chain on a flail I can pull your leg out from under you.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Silk » Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:08 am

It occurred to me that one could make a flail with a chain that has some recoil to it. I'm not sure exactly how it could be done, though with a shorter chain it could be managed with camp pad. Imagine an 8 to 12 inch chain that didn't flop around like a flail is supposed to. That could be a game breaker. A little flick of the wrist and the thing arcs around a shield, and bounces right back?

Granted that this is all "what if?" right now, but it seems possible. I have no evidence anecdotal or otherwise to support it.

Back to the actual question, a flail chain longer than six inches can entrap a limb. While not as scary as say wrapping around a neck, we deem weapons that can do this as unsafe.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Blackhawk » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:24 am

I had a 2' chain on my flail in da 80s. I was a god, total game breaker.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Milo Baines » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:35 am

[quote="Casimir Glassjaw"]
We very briefly playtested 8" flail chains in Southlands.  With an 8" chain on a flail I can pull your leg out from under you.
[/quote]

Too briefly I think...I'm planning on revisiting the idea soon.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Malpan » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:44 am

As things stand, flails are basically swords that can bend around shields. With longer, more flexible chains, I imagine they would behave more like real flails, improving both playability and realism...

BUT.........

There is a reason safety is on top of the trinity of dag standards. We simply cannot risk a flail rope getting wrapped around a limb, or, BH forbid, someones neck.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Mardil Three-Bows » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:26 pm

I can't trust a guy that can't properly spell "Safety."
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Cassius » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:34 pm

[quote="Milo Baines"]Too briefly I think...I'm planning on revisiting the idea soon.
[/quote]
I will pull your leg out from under you again.  I would prefer to try playtesting something like tiered armor grappling or just allowing the armored to initiate grappling.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby strave » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:07 pm

Ok so this forum seems like it is mainly ment to be used to ask about potential weapon ideas and possible hazards so i have one id like you guys to take a look at instead of posting a whole new topic.
A friend of mine recently joined our chaptor ands he does not like any of the weapons we have because they are all to short so we wanted something a little longer after some time she gave me a explaination of what she wanted.
She basically wants somthing that looks like this
<========-------========>
Its supposed to be foam on both edges and the handle is in the middle. Im sorry for the poor drawing but it was the best i could think of off the top of my head. However just looking at it, it brings me questions of wether it would pass or not due to there is technically no pommel. Other than that Is there anything you guys can think of that would make this illegal? and if the pommel wouldnt matter for this how effective do you think this would be?
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Sir Mirelle of Narnia » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:10 pm

[quote=&quot;strave&quot;]
Ok so this forum seems like it is mainly ment to be used to ask about potential weapon ideas and possible hazards so i have one id like you guys to take a look at instead of posting a whole new topic.
A friend of mine recently joined our chaptor ands he does not like any of the weapons we have because they are all to short so we wanted something a little longer after some time she gave me a explaination of what she wanted.
She basically wants somthing that looks like this
<========-------========>
Its supposed to be foam on both edges and the handle is in the middle. Im sorry for the poor drawing but it was the best i could think of off the top of my head. However just looking at it, it brings me questions of wether it would pass or not due to there is technically no pommel. Other than that Is there anything you guys can think of that would make this illegal? and if the pommel wouldnt matter for this how effective do you think this would be?
[/quote]

4.1.11.6 - No weapon may have a spike or blade at the butt (pommel) end. Note that double-ended weapons (below) may have stabbing points at ends; this is different from a blue sword with a green stabbing spike on the pommel.

4.1.11.8 - Double-ended weapons such as quarter staves are always considered to be blue weapons.

4.2.5 - Double-ended Weapons

4.2.5.1 - Double-ended weapons must not be more than 7 feet long.

4.2.5.2 - Double-ended weapons must have a minimum of 18 inches in length of a cylindrically padded striking surface on each end.

4.2.5.3 - Both ends must pass as green or neither end will pass as green.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby strave » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:13 pm

Wow i must have completly missed those when i read over it... literally right before i posted. i feel pretty foolish now but thank you cause now i also know how long to make sure it is/is not.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Arrakis » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:23 am

I would also recommend that you push her to start with a 32" blue sword, instead, to learn the basics of shot mechanics, body mechanics, footwork, grip, and blocking.

If she starts out with a quarterstaff, she will learn and progress more slowly and become frustrated more quickly, due to the technical difficulties involved with wielding a Dagorhir quarterstaff well.  Veterans find the Dag-legal quarterstaff a much more difficult weapon to fight well with than the basic sword or sword and shield.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Ethos » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:04 pm

This thread caused me to actually register, I think it might be the most amusing thread on the site. Thank you, one and all for your entertaining (and often /quite/ informative) postings!
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Rojji » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:02 am

The only reason I am posting this before I make it is because I do not want to waste my pommel-foam. I have some molded Closed cell foam that my dad gave me which some computer parts were packed in, I could make two cylinders out of it, that are legal by size and I could make a set of nunchucks that are kosher.....so why no bueno?
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Spiderling » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:50 am

Nunchucks are specifically disallowed in the rules:

4.1.11.10 - Disallowed weapons include but  are not limited to: Nets, lassos, pungee sticks, nunchucks, tonfas,  double-ended daggers, punch daggers

As I recall, this is primarily due to the issues involved in allowing people to grip the striking surface of their weapon (required when using nunchucks).
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Silk » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:36 am

Grabbing your own striking surface isn't much an issue, see half swording, but nunchaku are a tricky weapon whose uses include trapping and controlling an opponents weapons and limbs, the latter being not kosher. I'm sure there are other reasons to disallow them as well. For one, how useful would they be once padded to Dag minimums? While you're spinning them around and wrapping them around your body, shouldn't you be taking blue damage? Some say yes, others say no. They simply cause too much trouble for playability and safety without adding much if any benefit.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Cassin » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:49 am

Nunchaku are kinda one of those weapons that people used because conventional weapons were illegal.  Better than nothing, and in the right hands they could overpower a single enemy with a battlefield weapon, but there are reasons why "battlefield weapon" does not include nunchaku.  If you really want to use them, they can be approximated with really short flails that have elongated heads.  I would not recommend using them as your primary weapon unless killing a lot of people is not important to you or you rarely participate in battles with more than ten people.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Rojji » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:29 am

I not trained to use them nor do i plan on them being my primary, i just thought it would be a novelty weapon and if built like a flail in the middle then it should be fine
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Ragefire » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:17 pm

Also, a non lethal weapon.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Blackhawk » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:22 pm

I'll just leave this here.
-----------------
4.1.11.10 - Disallowed weapons include but are not limited to: Nets, lassos, pungee sticks, nunchucks, tonfas, double-ended daggers, punch daggers
-----------------
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Malpan » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:37 pm

But Blackhawk, that doesn't say anything about nunchaku!
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Blackhawk » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:43 pm

[quote=&quot;Malpan&quot;]
But Blackhawk, that doesn't say anything about nunchaku!
[/quote]
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Rojji » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:49 pm

Honey badger don't need no tent. He don't play that way. He'll go Han Solo and climb up in yo A#$ so he's nice and warm. Cuz he's a honey badger. He just don't give a S$%7
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Malpan » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:37 pm

[quote=&quot;Blackhawk The Apollyon&quot;]
[quote=&quot;Malpan&quot;]
But Blackhawk, that doesn't say anything about nunchaku!
[/quote]
I am going to use your skin to make an orange tent for a honey badger.
[/quote]

That sounds kind of awesome.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Spiderling » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:06 pm

[quote=&quot;Silk&quot;]
Grabbing your own striking surface isn't much an issue, see half swording[/quote][color=black]Half-swording is one thing, but in this case you'd be talking about the striking surface being the only grip, and having to grip it fairly hard to keep the full-sized striking surface in your hand while whipping it around all day.  I can't see that ending well when you then flip it around and swing the end you've been squeezing, core and all.[/color]
While you're spinning them around and wrapping them around your body, shouldn't you be taking blue damage? Some say yes, others say no.

As someone who's actually trained with the real thing, yes.  Very yes.  You will take yourself out over and over before you learn to control the stupid thing, much less hit anyone with it.  Plus, a good many techniques have you catching the striking surface while it's moving relatively fast at your hand.  Doable in real life, but in Dag it'd be a playability mess if you didn't call that loss of arm.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Silk » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:40 pm

Up until the last several years people would call you dead if you picked up your own sword by the blade, half-swording was out! This was directly hypocritical in respect of the fact that no one calls them self dead when their flail ball hits them in the back. People are foolish about different things now, so I can't say that the striking surface as a handle is a legitimate reason to ban the weapon, but as I said there are other, better reasons.

I had some training back when I was a kid, (almost doesn't count) but that, my time in silks in HS and my poi training as an adult have taught me that anything swinging around your body is likely to hurt when it whacks you. (especially when it's on fire!)
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Rafiq's Slightly Used Camels » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:05 pm

When I trained with nunchaku it wasn't so much about hitting yourself with it as positioning your body to make the chain bounce back before it hit you. That being said, nunchaku was like the most boring weapon to train.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Silk » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:33 pm

Right, but make the hafts dag legal and try to hit just the chain with your body.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Whisper Moonson » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:47 pm

Nunchuku were banned for safety reasons. They're so awesome that people's heads start to spontaneously explode whenever someone brings 'em out. That's a safety problem. Thus, we banned them.

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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Silk » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:05 pm

I love you.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Baros Deschain » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:53 am

So, back onto the subject of crazy experimental things... if I found a way to make it work with the weight limit, could I make a three-foot diameter rock?
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Blackhawk » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:12 pm

[quote=&quot;Baros Deschain&quot;]
So, back onto the subject of crazy experimental things... if I found a way to make it work with the weight limit, could I make a three-foot diameter rock?
[/quote]
Yes
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Rúnsær » Mon May 28, 2012 1:21 am

[quote=&quot;Blackhawk The Apollyon&quot;]
4.1.11.10 - Disallowed weapons include but are not limited to: Nets, lassos, pungee sticks, nunchucks, tonfas, double-ended daggers, punch daggers
[/quote][quote=&quot;Malpan&quot;]
But Blackhawk, that doesn't say anything about nunchaku!
[/quote]

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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Garret Ironshield » Tue May 29, 2012 3:03 pm

[quote=&quot;revjester&quot;]
[quote=&quot;Blackhawk The Apollyon&quot;]
4.1.11.10 - Disallowed weapons include but are not limited to: Nets, lassos, pungee sticks, nunchucks, tonfas, double-ended daggers, punch daggers
[/quote][quote=&quot;Malpan&quot;]
But Blackhawk, that doesn't say anything about nunchaku!
[/quote]

"Rule Zero"
In all aspects of Dagorhir, common sense supersedes loopholes. .... Loopholes will not even be considered by the Heralds (referees), check-in personnel, officials, or other players.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure Malpan was joking.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Rúnsær » Tue May 29, 2012 5:45 pm

Of course he was, I was just playing along
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Jinxerina » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:13 pm

So I found a goofy video on youtube of bat'leth dueling that has me craving some honorable Klingon goodness. Though, from some googling I've found that the design is banned under the double-ended weapon rules. Can I get an explanation? As far as I've seen it's "something something balance meta something something".

Also, here's the video: http://youtu.be/k3-iSn342CY
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Cassius » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:57 pm

Because the only double ended weapons allowed must have a cylindrical striking surface, and a bat'leth isn't cylindrical.

Also, you probably shouldn't look to sci-fi for weapon ideas for a dark ages themed LARP.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Anvildude » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:21 pm

When someone says "So why are certain double ended weapons banned through weird rules that require cylindrical striking surfaces" you don't answer with "The rules require cylindrical striking surfaces".


If I understand correctly, it's partly due to "meta" - for a while, Reds and Blues were allowed to have a Pommel Spike, essentially making them double ended weapons- however, because of the rules of our game and the way people would make weapons, long handled reds with a pommel spike ended up being used as "Spears with a surprise"- and completely dominated the field.  thus, better rules for two-ended weapons.

Also, I believe it's somewhat of a playability/safey reason- if you were to allow two-ended swords/axes/bat'leths, the person swinging would have to be completely aware of the orientation of the blade, to avoid flatting with it- and with a double ended weapon in the heat of combat, that's very, very difficult- especially since two-ended weapons are one of the more "Newb-bait" things out there, along with Flails and oversized Reds.  So if you allowed for non-omnidirectional striking surfaces on two-ended weapons, you're essentially opening the floodgates to new guys hitting everyone with flats, with a weapon that allows for a lot more force generation a lot quicker than just about anything else out there.

Thirdly- I've actually seen it posited (or maybe made the posit myself) that the Bat'leth is descended from what was essentially a Klingon scythe, back in their agrarian period- part of the use of a Bat'leth is a swung stabbing action with the forward swept points on the end of the blade- and swung piercing weapons are rather difficult to make safe, and against the rules in anycase (because of the aforementioned safety issue).

I know someone else had a discussion going on "Feyblades" which are essentially one-handed mini-bat'leths, and I believe it ended up with people saying that, yes, you could potentially make a curved Quarterstaff that would act during a fight like a Bat'leth/feyblade, though it wouldn't look like one.

It does bring up an interesting question/idea, though-  I could see someone making that 'curved Q-staff', safe, legal, all on the up-and-up, and then adding extra foam on the inner surface to make it look and act more like a Bat'leth- though then you start getting into the odd area of 'punching weapons'- though again, I believe there may be no rules specifically against punching motions with weapons, just against things like punch daggers and claws- pushing with the center of this hypothetical Bat'leth-Q-staff wouldn't be allowed to be counted as a strike (though it is a 'bladed' portion of the Bat'leth) but, if padded properly, would probably be allowed as just that- a pushing or blocking surface.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Jinxerina » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:23 pm

[quote=&quot;Cassius&quot;]
Because the only double ended weapons allowed must have a cylindrical striking surface, and a bat'leth isn't cylindrical.

Also, you probably shouldn't look to sci-fi for weapon ideas for a dark ages themed LARP.
[/quote]

Well, I understand the first part, sort of. Though it doesn't clear up the why part of cylindrical weapons being the only acceptable double ended ones, and even then only quarterstaves for the most part.
Also, what does it matter if it's from a sci-fi? Far more illogical fantasy melee weapons floating around in use. Not to mention the 'sploity meta-weapons that could never work in reality like ten foot red swords that scoot in under the door at events now and then.

Thirdly- I've actually seen it posited (or maybe made the posit myself) that the Bat'leth is descended from what was essentially a Klingon scythe, back in their agrarian period- part of the use of a Bat'leth is a swung stabbing action with the forward swept points on the end of the blade- and swung piercing weapons are rather difficult to make safe, and against the rules in anycase (because of the aforementioned safety issue).

I know someone else had a discussion going on "Feyblades" which are essentially one-handed mini-bat'leths, and I believe it ended up with people saying that, yes, you could potentially make a curved Quarterstaff that would act during a fight like a Bat'leth/feyblade, though it wouldn't look like one.

It does bring up an interesting question/idea, though-  I could see someone making that 'curved Q-staff', safe, legal, all on the up-and-up, and then adding extra foam on the inner surface to make it look and act more like a Bat'leth- though then you start getting into the odd area of 'punching weapons'- though again, I believe there may be no rules specifically against punching motions with weapons, just against things like punch daggers and claws- pushing with the center of this hypothetical Bat'leth-Q-staff wouldn't be allowed to be counted as a strike (though it is a 'bladed' portion of the Bat'leth) but, if padded properly, would probably be allowed as just that- a pushing or blocking surface.


As much as that indeed would be the logical way around making a bat'leth, I'm sure that'd be pretty hit and miss in terms of legality under the principles of rule zero. Also, thanks for the explanation of what exactly it was in meta that made dual-ending so bad.
By feyblades do you mean deer-horn knives?
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Last edited by Jinxerina on Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Angus Daergh MacKay » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:30 am

[quote=&quot;Jinxerina&quot;]
Thirdly- I've actually seen it posited (or maybe made the posit myself) that the Bat'leth is descended from what was essentially a Klingon scythe, back in their agrarian period- part of the use of a Bat'leth is a swung stabbing action with the forward swept points on the end of the blade- and swung piercing weapons are rather difficult to make safe, and against the rules in anycase (because of the aforementioned safety issue).
[/quote]

Well going to let my geek flag fly proudly here, the Bat'leth was originally  (in canon) developed by Kahless the unforgettable by taking a strand of his hair and dipping it in the lava of an active volcano (whose name escapes me at this minute) and then twisted it into the shape we all recognize now. That said and though I LOE Bat'leths (I even have the banned book n Klingon Martial Arts released back in the late 90's and then recalled by Paramount) the Bat'leth is more suited to one-on-one tournaments such as in this video from the IKV Melota's 2008 Bat'leth Tourney (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3-iSn342CY) while padded and used in full contact, they clearly are not made up to Dagorhir construction standards...(and not to mention the whole sci-fi as opposed to fantasy thing)
Think about this...The Scottish Highlanders were a very poor people, no armor to speak of, only the most basic of weapons, and still the English, whom had one of the most powerful armies of the time, considered them to be a huge threat!  Hmmmmm
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Jinxerina » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:00 pm

[quote=&quot;Angus Daergh MacKay&quot;]
[quote=&quot;Jinxerina&quot;]
Thirdly- I've actually seen it posited (or maybe made the posit myself) that the Bat'leth is descended from what was essentially a Klingon scythe, back in their agrarian period- part of the use of a Bat'leth is a swung stabbing action with the forward swept points on the end of the blade- and swung piercing weapons are rather difficult to make safe, and against the rules in anycase (because of the aforementioned safety issue).
[/quote]

Well going to let my geek flag fly proudly here, the Bat'leth was originally  (in canon) developed by Kahless the unforgettable by taking a strand of his hair and dipping it in the lava of an active volcano (whose name escapes me at this minute) and then twisted it into the shape we all recognize now. That said and though I LOE Bat'leths (I even have the banned book n Klingon Martial Arts released back in the late 90's and then recalled by Paramount) the Bat'leth is more suited to one-on-one tournaments such as in this video from the IKV Melota's 2008 Bat'leth Tourney (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3-iSn342CY) while padded and used in full contact, they clearly are not made up to Dagorhir construction standards...(and not to mention the whole sci-fi as opposed to fantasy thing)
[/quote]
Such brotherhood in honour. I agree it's almost exclusively a duel weapon, a gimmicky duel weapon at that. But I too love the design and don't find the sci fi part that big a deal. The weapon did arise from the Klingon era relatively analogous to the human era Dag is set in. Why puck only one variety of fantasy universe?
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Ravus Tull » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:37 pm

You get sci fi swords as soon as I get sci fi blasters.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Anvildude » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:15 pm

No no, you misunderstand.  This isn't a Sci-fi sword.  It's a Fantasy sword from a culture in a Sci-fi universe.

It would be like if someone made a Red that was like Digo's 3-bladed axe from Girl Genius- a Fantasy weapon from a Steampunk universe.  Or if someone made one of the iron-type Sangheili swords- historical from a fictional sci-fi universe.

Now, if we were allowed to have lightsabers, you know, hilts with blades that weigh almost nothing and can deliver mortal strikes from any direction, then you'd be allowed your blasters.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Jinxerina » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:32 pm

Moving my other project that will not be named to the back burner, I've decided to play around with the idea of building a better quarterstaff. Right now, they kind of blow; they're heavy, slow, and unwieldy. The antithesis of the staff.
Looking at them for some quick research, they're all built in a relatively uniform way from older tech. They're using straight blue foam or blue foam over pool noodles, being done with anywhere between a .50-1.00" pvc or reinforced pvc core, and are shaped like q-tips with only a small gripping surface in the center.
Thinking they could be greatly improved using more up to date concepts like thinner, lighter fiberglass and carbon cores, better foam type and location distribution, and possibly changing the locations of their gripping surfaces.

To shoot some ideas out there:
Make alternating rings of foam equal in diameter, one set to take impacts, another one made of softer foam to be grabbed through to get a hold like in my beautiful ASCII drawing below.

<[]=[]=[]=[]=[]=[]=[]=[]=[]=[]>
Not sure how this one would do if you hit somebody with it is the thing. Certainly, the vast majority of blows would feature primarily impacting or partially impacting the firmer "impact foam" but catching an arm with the softer stuff would blow and likely knocks this idea out of legality.

Don't build a ludicrously large center handle, no staff-wielding style I'm aware of places both hands in the center of the pole. Instead, build two handles approximately at 1/3rd and 2/3rd positions or three at 1/4th, 2/4ths, and 3/4ths.

<=====---======---=====>
or
<====--====--====--====>
Problem with this is even worse than the above because of the even worse possibility of hitting somebody with your handle. Probably unlikely, but it's going to happen. Thus, not that great an option.

Build the entire thing with a continuous, impact-safe surface that's magically thin enough to be grabbed onto? Well, there is this video http://youtu.be/A980sz-RDm0 which, albeit silly and not up at Dagorhir impacts, does illustrate a quarterstaff being used that's thick, but manageable if you have larger hands. Wondering if the foam'gineers of Dag have any ideas about all this.
Last edited by Jinxerina on Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Whisper Moonson » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:53 pm

The best quarterstaff designs I've seen have been on the long side, with 18" padded for blue and green at both ends, and tapering layers of courtesy padding extending from the striking zone on one end down to the bare haft by the butt end. More ASCII art to illustrate (not to scale):

Code: Select all
.____________                                                                     ____________
|            \                                            _______________---------            |
|             --------------------========================_______________                     |
|____________/                                                           ---------____________|


The idea being that you use it as a spear or pole arm with a little surprise on the back end.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Ulricus Burgstahler » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:58 pm

[quote=&quot;Whisper Moonson&quot;]
The best quarterstaff designs I've seen have been on the long side, with 18" padded for blue and green at both ends, and tapering layers of courtesy padding extending from the striking zone on one end down to the bare haft by the butt end. More ASCII art to illustrate (not to scale):

Code: Select all
.____________                                                                     ____________
|            \                                            _______________---------            |
|             --------------------========================_______________                     |
|____________/                                                           ---------____________|


The idea being that you use it as a spear or pole arm with a little surprise on the back end.
[/quote]

Wouldn't that count as a pommel spike which is not allowed?
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Anvildude » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:01 am

Not so much because of the 18" of strike zone beneath it.  It's essentially a 2 sided spear with extra padding and "bonus blue".  And it actually allows for more... not sure if "realistic" is the word?- spear work- allowing for 'butt spike' and haft/blade strikes that are weaker than the thrust.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Lt. Colonel Nessie-Pop » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:26 am

Then you tack on the fact that the 7' max length on Qs makes it shorter than your average Dag spear, on top of the fact that gripping 18" forward of the pommel is killing your range anyway, and you have a spear with a surprise, but a much smaller effective range.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Jinxerina » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:43 am

That would indeed be an improvement over the typical q-tip, but I still don't feel it takes the whole thing far enough. Not sure if the tube of striking surface concept is really possible, given Dag' LARP physics and actual physics. The amount of force you could generate along a five foot jo or a six foot bo when swinging from the base is probably just too much to realistically pad for.

Protip: don't be that ass that uses a "quarterspear" with a strap shield. Nobody likes that ass.

Had a lightbulb moment where I though about using a thin fiberglass rod for a core that extended the final couple of inches beyond a kitespar core which it rested inside of. It'd mean thinner, more flexible ends with more give to pass impact tests. The problem would of course be flex tests, not sure how to design for that.
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Re: Experimental Weapons Meta-Guide

Postby Whisper Moonson » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:40 pm

[quote=&quot;Takiir Sendlerin of the Highest Bidder&quot;]
[quote=&quot;Whisper Moonson&quot;]
The best quarterstaff designs I've seen have been on the long side, with 18" padded for blue and green at both ends, and tapering layers of courtesy padding extending from the striking zone on one end down to the bare haft by the butt end. More ASCII art to illustrate (not to scale):

Code: Select all
.____________                                                                     ____________
|            \                                            _______________---------            |
|             --------------------========================_______________                     |
|____________/                                                           ---------____________|


The idea being that you use it as a spear or pole arm with a little surprise on the back end.
[/quote]

Wouldn't that count as a pommel spike which is not allowed?
[/quote]

Normally, yes. But we're talking about a quarterstaff, here. At least 18" padded for striking (for blue) on each end, and either both ends padded for stabbing or neither end padded for striking.

I don't see any problem with building this on a band pole, using a progressive 4-layer build for the striking surfaces. Crank away! Just don't build it too heavy. Mass is a bigger problem with pole weapons than padding. If you can find a lighter core than band pole that won't flex out or break, that would be even better.
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