Whip sword.

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Whip sword.

Postby Arctictiger35 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:18 am

So, I get that it is generally agreed apon that a whip sword by flail rules would not be possible. After re-reading the rules on flails, I realized that it says that a chain can have a max length of 6 inches. Not that a flail can have a max of 6 inches of chain. So the ideas that are handle chain head chain head chain head like this ===--[{}]-[{}]-[{}] are perfectly within the rules. Ask your local realm leader due to rule 0, but rules as written it is a legal weapon. Go have fun ya nerds
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Re: Whip sword.

Postby Shagz » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:16 pm

Instead of just stating "No" or "Rule 0", here are some reasons for failure under the rules:
  • Lets start by how we define head. I'll use definition 9a from the Merriam-Webster dictionary which defines it as "the uppermost extremity or projecting part of an object". There are plenty over other definitions that support the use of head as the end, usually uppermost, of something. So the tester failing the weapon could state that only the end piece of the chain is the head and that the weapon fails for a greater than 6 inch chain as you used overly large chain segments. Looking at definition 9b that defines "the striking part of a weapon, tool, or implement", you could argue that each large segment is a striking part and each should be defined as a head. This leads into the other to reason it could and should lead to failure in my list. Here's a link to Merriam-Webster Dictionary for the term "Head".
  • Your striking surface fails the flex test unless you added a core to your chain sot that it would only flex to around 40 degrees. Not the weapon checker's problem you forgot to add a core to your striking surface.

If you want to make a whip sword as a tool for special scenarios you host, then go ahead, but this will fail at at least 99% of Dagorhir official events, no matter what loopholes you try to spew.
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Re: Whip sword.

Postby Arctictiger35 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:19 am

Actually, both of your points are flawed. Let's start with the last one first.
This is a flail. Flails have chains that are exceptions to the flex rule. The only part of this weapon that would flex would be the chain/chains, thus putting this into said exception.
As for your other point, you are using the 9a definition of head. Let's look at 9b. -the striking part of a weapon, tool, or implement- it's that simple.
Sounds to me like your argument is full of holes.
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Re: Whip sword.

Postby Sirilay, Innaniel » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:24 pm

It can be a little vague, yes.

4.2.4.3 - The maximum "chain" length on a flail is 6 inches.

One would argue the heads in your example above are still a part of the chain, and three heads would make it longer than 6".

4.2.4.4 - The rope or cloth of the flail "chain" must be completely covered with segmented foam (rings) to reduce the risk of injury if the chain strikes a fighter and reduce the risk of the chain wrapping a weapon or limb.

A flail with multiple heads as you describe would more than likely run the risk of wrapping a weapon or limb. If you say it doesn't, I'd be interested in seeing a video to show that.
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Re: Whip sword.

Postby Arctictiger35 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:05 pm

Yes there have been some problems with wrapping but I fixed this by shortening each chain to 4 inch. Me and a few other people have play tested it and intentionally tried to wrap it around a weapon and had no more issue than a normal flail. After my realms next practice I'll post that video.
And my original argument was that the only way it wasn't legal is if they said the whole thing was one chain or invoked rule 0. Either way they would have to play the rules just as much to get rid of it as I did to get it
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Re: Whip sword.

Postby Sven Kolfinsson » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:58 am

This is pretty much the textbook definition of a loophole, and since rule 0 is in fact written into the MoA this kind of weapon is not legal when following the rules as written. No rule allows you to "break up" the max length of the chain into multiple parts. That part of the argument aside, if you're going to have multiple heads on a flail each head must have a 16" circumference measured at the smallest point and weight 4 ounces (per 4.2.4.1).

If you wanna playtest or screw around with this at practice that's fine, but any herald/head weapons checker that allows this on the field at an official event is ignoring the MoA.
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Re: Whip sword.

Postby Arctictiger35 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:43 pm

It's not "breaking up" the max length of overall chain. There is no maximum over all chain length. That's where entire point of this post. From testing this weapon is both Safe and Effective. There are plenty of other loopholes that are allowed because they are safe, like no metal in the construction of weapons but it's usually allowed in the handle for weight. Technically illegal, yet allowed. So why is a weapon that is actually legal going to fail? Simply because people like you can't accept that this is possible based on the rules? Or because "that's just the way it is?" I pointed out that based on the rules this is allowed and only a herald pulling rule 0 simply because they can will keep it from being so.
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Re: Whip sword.

Postby Sven Kolfinsson » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:46 am

Arctictiger35 wrote:It's not "breaking up" the max length of overall chain. There is no maximum over all chain length..


Yes, there is. "4.2.4.3 - The maximum "chain" length on a flail is 6 inches."


Arctictiger35 wrote:There are plenty of other loopholes that are allowed because they are safe, like no metal in the construction of weapons but it's usually allowed in the handle for weight. Technically illegal, yet allowed.


Counterweighting with metal is not the same as using a metal core. This rule has generally been interpreted to disallow both metal cores and metal counterweighting in the striking surface of the weapon. "4.1.11.5 - No weapons other than aluminum-shafted arrows may have metal cores."


Arctictiger35 wrote:So why is a weapon that is actually legal going to fail? Simply because people like you can't accept that this is possible based on the rules? Or because "that's just the way it is?" I pointed out that based on the rules this is allowed and only a herald pulling rule 0 simply because they can will keep it from being so.


Because it's not actually legal. The chain of a flail cannot be longer than 6 inches (4.2.4.3), common sense supersedes loopholes (rule 0), and "all weapons are subject to rejection for any safety or construction discrepancies as determined by the weapons checkers appointed by the event organizers" (4.1.1). If you really honestly think that this is legal per the MoA, make it, bring it to an event, and argue your case.

Good luck.
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Re: Whip sword.

Postby Arctictiger35 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:27 am

Look, you obviously didn't read the original post. The rules say that a chain on a flail can not me more than 6 inches. Not that you can not have multiple chains. And if there's a head between each 6 inch section of chain, that is multiple chains of 6 inches. Hereby confirming to the chain length rule. I don't see how this goes against common sense, as it is a safe weapon and would better represent flails in real life. And it is neither a safety problem nor would it break any size, weight, length, padding, or core rules, so construction is down. Looks like my boat still floats and the only reason to deny this weapon built this way is simply "just because"
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