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Orange juice has a lot of calcium in it now, I don't think that's the problem.

It's pretty much the same as A-game and the Burning Lands. Original chapter has to manage the copyright, and approve new chapter contracts, but on a day-to-day basis they only worry about their chapter.

I don't think this should be happening with any frequency.  Certainly doesn't where I fight.  Is Florida the origin of the idea that min reds can be padded the same as blues if they use a light core?

Min reds can be padded as much or as little as they need to be to pass a hit test.

I have two min reds in 1/2" square fg cores that are 3.5" by 1.25". Many others (especially those using Gorg's weapons) have min reds that are 3" by 1.5" on 1/2" round fg cores. One such min red may have broken my metacarpals (never bothered to get them checked, I can still sword fight, play rugby, write, and paint Warhams without any loss of ability, so it seems to have taken care of itself) but that is really not an indication of the weapon's safety. I've fought a bunch in Florida recently and not received more than one or two bruises per five hour, 100-fighter day battle.

Regardless of how well its padded, any weapon above a certain weight is going to have the possibility of doing damage; conversely, really light weapons with minimal padding may sting but don't have the capacity for serious damage.

I think a hat or helm counts as covering goggles, personally.

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_law_variations

This all happened during my time playing that sport, and as I recall it worked very well, with a lot of publicity about how the rules changes were filtered down from the higher levels to the lower. Read the article and you might get a sense of how we could consider effecting a number of rules changes, or at least testing them out.

Reminds me of similar arguments surrounding the use and legislation of modern armaments....

Or cannabis, for that matter.

But in any case, I am glad to see that people seem to like my (?) idea for a three-level armor system. Does someone want to seriously propose this?

Indeed!

I think that a 3-tiered system, in place of our current 2-tiered one, would be a real improvement.

No armor: full range of motion, greater speed and stamina, can initiate grapples

Light [leather] armor: moderately reduced range of motion, moderately reduced speed and stamina, cannot initiate grapple, 1 extra hit

Heavy [metal] armor: moderately to heavily reduced range of motion, heavily reduced speed and stamina, cannot initiate grapple, 2 extra hits

Good plate armor is lighter than mail, and doesn't encumber much more than mail does either, so I think they could both be counted as heavy armor. While this doesn't preserve the simple binary we have for armor now, it does balance armor more.

Also I think only metal helmets should be allowed, for both realism and safety arguments. I have seen many leather "helmets" out there that are MORE dangerous to the wearer than simply getting hit in the face with a padded arrow. And moreover, if you are wearing leather "armor" on your head, and it hurts when you get hit with a padded arrow, then you are not actually wearing leather armor on your head. If your armor can't protect you from a foam weapon, there's no way in hell it would protect you from a real one.[/me]

Or how about just:

5.1.12 - Rigid plastic safety equipment is permitted but must be concealed [period]. It does not count as armor.

Would that work? The idea is not to have Dag units that look like this:

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/Tanathlagoon/l_58b8f6dc32b541e2b7e07694c65d43c8.jpg

(not that the Justicars aren't a badass fighting company, but if they ever cross-game they would need to stop wearing hockey helmets)

5-ply birch underlayment, sometimes sold under the brand name Tec-Ply, is a good choice if you want to keep the weight down, which I would recommend you do for punch shields. Real shields were generally thought of as disposable and were not all that heavy.

He probably did them with a machine. With a decent sewing machine and some practice you can get surprisingly good results - here's some lettering on a tunic of mine, done with a machine:



(the letters are under 3cm high, for reference)

And here's the sleeve, also done with a machine:



The trick is to be familiar with the machine, and to be really patient and methodical.

To attach a handle to a wood-cored punch shield, you can just screw, bolt, rivet, or nail a piece of wood the right size and shape for your grip (1" square is what I would recommend) onto the plywood.

For a foam-cored punch shield, generally you will need to carve our route out a channel for your core. Garkoth has a thread in which he shows the results of using a cool milling machine to do this, but you can go at it with a good knife and produce acceptable results as well. I would recommend  1/2" or 3/4" PVC for these grips, if you can't get good 1/2-3/4" fiberglass.

Are you saying that those who are not 100% healthy should not be able to take part in this activity due to ascetic reasons?   And if that is the case, why are modern things still allowed like lacrosse gloves, Sunglasses , modern hats/shoes...

I assume you mean aesthetic reasons, and to a certain extent, yes.

Dagorhir is a physical activity. Those who are not physically capable of safely participating in this activity within the confines of the rules should not do so. Someone who can't safely play soccer without wearing a hockey helmet would not be allowed to play soccer, since rigid plastic helmets are not allowed in that game.

If you wear a Trebon Altarpiece helmet, you're okay. Bascinets with riveted mail aventails and bar grills are not the issue being discussed.

But yeah, that IS a period grill, or at least the artist, who is depicting someone in contemporary garb (as was the tendency in Biblical/Classical art until the Enlightenment, iirc), believed it to be. It won't protect against arrows, though, either in real life or in Dagorhir.

It's not the foamsmithing destination but the foamsmithing journey that counts, guys 

I think they need to be concealed, though.

I agree. I think if we separate the different sections of the rules more clearly it will become more readily apparent to newer players how each component of the game works.

There are however some areas in which the rules are redundant or contradictory, which definitely do need to be changed.

[armor]

Would it be possible to allow bar grills as a safety feature?  Granted the wearer would still take an arrow to the grill as death, but their face would be protected.

We actually talked about this at Ragnarok, and Dev offered a very elegant solution (Which I paraphrase): "If you feel, for whatever reason, that you need an extra level of protection beyond the foam on your opponents' weapons, you should wear what people throughout history have worn to protect them from harm--armor."

Remember that the idea here is NOT a change in the rules, but rather, a rewrite and reorganization of the rules that makes them

a) easier to understand
b) organized from most important/fundamental/essential to least
c) less ambiguous
d) written in a tone more aspirational and less restrictive, with fewer subjective criteria
e) [the original thing that got me thinking about this] divided up into each of the different elements of the game, and then put in a structure that allows each element to be seen as separate but equal components of the entire experience.

I can explain e) again as, from my perspective, something that addresses the biggest problem with our rulebook, namely, that rules for equipment and for gameplay are jumbled together without the ability to be easily pulled apart, while at the same time many rules for key areas of the game--what the job of a herald is, what the standards for weapons check beyond length/weight/diameter are, how resurrection battles work, how to look dead, to name a few--are almost nowhere to be found.

On the other note: is anybody still saying in earnest that the MoA on the website is only the ruleset for Ragnarok? I know of no one who really understands it that way, and I honestly didn't think that anyone still thought of the online MoA as anything other than the official Dagorhir ruleset. Maybe it's more strictly/consistently enforced AT Ragnarok, but while there is technically plenty of leeway for chapters to determine their own rules, anywhere with house rules adopts said rules as variants on the online, official Manual of Arms (which I think, as I said in my earlier post, is an inaccurate and also somewhat flurby name).

Really you would want a Classicist, since we have specific training in tracing different elements of a text back through their manuscript traditions to figure out which elements were added at which time, which are original, and which are mistakes in the transcription process.

 Hell, I wear a black underarmor shirt underneath my gambeson when I'm in armor, simply to hide my blindingly-white armpits every time I raise my arm. 

This confuses me. Why would your compression shirt, or your armpit, be visible if it's under your gambeson?

The rules don't say what they mean, and no one I know of plays what the rules say, so there's no reason NOT to change the rules to reflect the actual game.

[have]

This is a cross-post from the Garb forum, that I think belongs here:

Again, as I have said a zillion times before, I think the rules are phrased in such a way that makes garb come across as a "what do I have to do in order to play Dagorhir?" rather than "what do I get to do when I play Dagorhir?"

I think the rules are they are currently written are both overly restrictive and uninspiring. And I also think they are in the wrong place. What does clothing have to do with a "Manual of Arms"? For that matter, why do we call our rules a Manual of Arms? That's an awkward and inaccurate name. A Manual of Arms is something like the Fiore dei Liberi or Hans Talhoffer book, something that teaches fighting techniques. These are The Rules, or more specifically the Dagorhir Battle Games Association(R) Combat Rules.

To put it another way: the rules of combat and the rules for garb have no bearing on one another. The fact that bright yellow shoes are permissible when they are of ancient, medieval, or non-modern fantasy design has no bearing on what constitutes "sufficient force" in a hit. You don't need to conform specifically to any one historical period or fantasy work with your garb, but that doesn't mean arrows to the head don't kill you just because you're wearing a meticulously researched, hand-sewn Sassanid robe. These two areas of the game are completely separate from a functional standpoint.

However, that does NOT mean they are not BOTH essential.

What I would suggest is the following:

1. Reconfigure the rules as part of the Dagorhir Handbook, which is a document that can be easily edited and updated pending approval.

2. Create separate sections for Garb Regulations, Armor Regulations, Weapon and Shield Regulations, Combat Regulations, Event Regulations (as well as sections for stuff like DBGA bylaws, chapter contract, how-to guides, contact information, etc., I'm just talking about the garb and fighting stuff).

3. Set up the Garb section like this:

"Garb is defined as what Dagorhir participants wear. Dagorhir garb consists of various types of ancient, medieval, and fantasy-based clothing that create an immersive environment removed from modern and mundane culture."

Then give a bunch of examples of Dagorhir garb, ALL of which should look good, MUCH of which should be the best examples of Dagorhir garb we can find, but SOME of which is basic and the construction of which can be pretty easily deduced from glancing at a photo. The intent here is to highlight both how excellent good garb looks, and how easy it actually is to make.

At the END of the garb section, for reference purposes, should be a list of what is NOT allowed. We want to make Dagorhir garb an aspiration, not an obstacle.

4. In the Event Regulations section, simply state that "Garb is a requirement for participation in all DBGA-sanctioned Dagorhir events."

This is just some spitballing when I should be studying, but what do you think? Does that make sense?

I just want to start a discussion on how we might consider revamping the rules going forward. As some of you know, there was a substantial rewrite a few years ago (or was it a noticeable rewrite?   ) that resulted in several bizarre discrepancies and redundancies, probably because there was not enough oversight or not enough editing (i.e. too few drafts from start to publication) and I certainly don't want to repeat that ordeal. At the same time, however, I think all of you have noticed that the rules as they are now have accreted a number of redundancies and confusing verbiage.

Therefore, I think it would be good for us to try re-thinking how our rules are written. How can we re-write them to make them more newbie-friendly? How can we re-write them to reflect the ideals of the game, as well as accurately give a sense of what it's like to actually play Dagorhir? What are the most important, core concepts of Dagorhir's ruleset, and which parts are technicalities or details that may get in the way of a solid understanding of the basics?


edit: fixed text size issue

What is this soccer jersey you guys are talking about?

Well, there is a reason why both versions of Rugby have now outlawed the "shoulder charge."

Yes, BUT there is a rule (quoted in my post) specifically limiting the thickness of helms, for some reason that has never been fully explained to my satisfaction. My proposal would simply be to do away with that rule.

My proposal does away with the maximum entirely, making the minimum 18ga (as metal helms would then fall under the rules for metal armor in general). Sound right to you?

[5.2.10]

...change this:

5.2.10 - Metal helmets may only be constructed from 18- to 16-gauge. Helmets may not have "non-period" grills (e.g., most "SCA" helmets have non-period grills).

To this:

5.2.10 -  Helmets may not have "non-period" grills (e.g., most "SCA" helmets have non-period grills).

Because there is no reason not to allow 14ga helms (especially seeing as we already do, in practice) whereas non-period grills look like ass and also give unfair advantages w/r/t blocking projectile weapons.

It sounds like you're suggesting we increase the minimum for helms to 16ga, though. If I may ask, what is the reasoning behind that?

Anyone who tells you that buckles aren't period is ignorant of the fact that buckles are, in fact, period, as well as found in many fantasy contexts. Like the D&D 3E sorcerer, Hennet:

People say that?

People selling ring belts do, yeah.

Anyone who tells you that buckles aren't period is ignorant of the fact that buckles are, in fact, period, as well as found in many fantasy contexts. Like the D&D 3E sorcerer, Hennet:

LOKE - Emergency note - do NOT build Dagorhir weapons with the foam in the lower right hand corner of your last photo. It will not work out well.

(If that's not what it's for, then, good)

What's the difference between a mask that covers the eyes and forehead, and one that covers the chin and jaw? It seems like the playability issue is the same in both cases.

Whisper, if it says "Disney" at the beginning of it, it's a Disney movie.

To wit:

http://www.youtube.com/user/disneymovietrailers?v=X6Zt7914NPI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYz2wyBy3kc

Both Disney movies.

Vietnam did some weird stuff to a lot of people, that's for sure.

Yeah, I understand that as well.

I was thinking something like a 168" maximum would make sense, for a 4'x3' shield (assuming a rectangular one) but that leaves LOTS of flexibility for different shapes, sizes, and proportions.

Or instead, we could use a maximum perimeter rule, with some provision to allow for cut-outs on shields (like lance rests, or weird swirly-shape shields).

Gonna come at this from a slightly different angle...

Dev, that's a really good point you made there, and I think it's definitely worth considering.

In general I would prefer higher standards for armour, but given Dagorhirrim's reluctance to accept higher standards, I think the light in which you've cast the situation is sufficient for me to live with things as they are.

Besides, having masks makes archery less powerful, and who doesn't want that? 

Yes, this is also good.

Dont worry ultimately the dwarves get locked in a barn for eternity for being scumbags atheists...

(I read the books)

They weren't allowed to fight? That's weird.

At least we got their sideline commentary!

Upon further reflection, I think the answer is "He was still under license to Sony Pictures Entertainment." 

The new Lone Ranger seems like it will have a lot of explosions, I think that may have some good climactic scenes for comparison with other Disney movies.

And actually, The Avengers had a pretty sweet climactic scene with the wormhole and all the aliens flying around and New York buildings falling down (but WHERE WAS SPIDER-MAN? HE LIVES THERE!)

Got it. Time to be productive, I guess!

Do they have the bout schedule up anywhere? I don't think I can hang out online all day to wait for the good stuff, unfortunately.

Part of the problem seems, to me, to be that the USA guys want to play this sport like football, when in reality it's more like ice hockey.

I'm all for wearing a lot of accessories, but daaaaaaayum, that dude's wearing two pouches and three belts.

That seems excessive even to me...

They just hadn't invented the backpack yet.

I just don't understand why the USA team likes to stand still so much. They just get pinned in the corner, over and over again.  In a game where the objective is to knock your opponent over, movement is key.

USA is not moving enough. They could have beaten Ukraine if they weren't just standing there waiting to be attacked. Also, they need more poles.

When I posted that the feed was off, it was in between rounds. I've been watching the last two hours though. USA up again soon...Italy is also bad so maybe we will win?

They're also using tower shields...

Thrush, that link has no video. Are you sure it's correct? All I am getting is audio.

I have the feeling I'm going to need to bring an entire bottle of something strong to make it through RWC this year, if this thread is any indication. 

Yes, I too make my most responsible decisions while drunk.

Falgor, I may have a few others. Is there a deadline?