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i have a muff made of shorn beaver fur

pahahahahahahahahahahahah. I actually laughed out loud when I read this. Scheiny...you need to learn slang terribly bad...

She is aware.

Remember that test you were saying showed the CoP was not protective against arrows. The test that showed that the CoP was 20-40% more effective then plate. The test that the author concluded that even though it was penetrated the size of the wound tract would likely not have been immediately fatal.

That's not what I am reading in that article.

"Coat of Plates...the wound would be very small and, unless hitting a major organ, likely survivable. The other tests did not penetrate but did leave large plate sized deformations. These dents were well within the threshold, but would have had an impact on the wearer"

I take survivable to mean you might survive, but you're not going to be running around the battle unhindered.  Also, if not using that specific type of arrow, it still had an impact on the wearer thus making a Coat of Plates immune is actually unrealistic.

Do you think they are more likely or less likely to survive the arrow or having their arm forcibly removed via blunt force trauma.

Making a CoP immune is more realistic than: making a leather helmet immune, the fact that one severed limb is fine but two is fatal, or fatal blows to the shoulders and buttocks.

Remember as far as rules are concerned Dagorhirrim function at peak ability (excepting derangement of the limbs) until they point they die.

Buy five
Cut them in half
Only pad one side of the core

These are for testing not fighting.

If we are serious in talking problems that could happen, myself I see the mixing of armors being a problem. Say I wear all leather except my bracers. Incoming arrow? Armblock, immune. Gets cheesy.

Don't we have a rule that says if you intentionally block an arrow with a weapon, you're dead?  Think of the SPIRIT of that rule.  Now think of using a plate bracer to purposefully block an arrow out of the air.  See the similarities here?  You do that, you should be dead.

Eh, I don't know we allow it with shields. Yes you could have two bracers as opposed to one shield but bracers also have less surface area to block with.

If we are serious in talking problems that could happen, myself I see the mixing of armors being a problem. Say I wear all leather except my bracers. Incoming arrow? Armblock, immune. Gets cheesy.

Less effective than wearing a small all foam strap shield.

Additional problem, hand on weapon is considered arm. If someone is wearing metal armor wouldnt that mean they are prolly "wearing" gauntlets that would help protect from that? or are we just going to ignore that?

Only leather and flexible metal is allowed for hands since no plate is flexible this is a non issue.

Keeping track of what is metal on your body and what is not could get complicated when trying to discern hits. Archers would have to call shots on mixed armor people to tell them if they hit a non metal armored location.

One of the issues plate as proof seeks to address is the extant complication of trying to discern hits through plate. Since arrow strikes already have to be called on plate fewer clarity calls would have to be made on the field. Also it is not considered unnecessarily complicated to keep track of what locations are and are not armored. 

Poorly conceived metal armor is both heavier and less mobile than poorly conceived leather. Well conceived metal armor is still heavier than leather. These are the limiting factors on "sport plate." What would such a creature even look like: Braveheart bring, splints, mirror breastplates? Please keep in mind that we won't be seeing layered tin foil on the field and washers stitched to a backing isn't plate.

If we allowed aluminum or plastic plate I could see "sport plate" being an actual concept.

Technically the only real armor in that test was the riveted chain.  A flat piece of metal does not equal a piece of armor.

It does on a tank.

This, combined with the far less than 100% protection from arrows that a CoP offers, is the reason why I am questioning blanketing all non-chain metal into the same category.

Also, I knew a positive discussion on the upside/downside of a proposed rule change would only last so long.

Remember that test you were saying showed the CoP was not protective against arrows. The test that showed that the CoP was 20-40% more effective then plate. The test that the author concluded that even though it was penetrated the size of the wound tract would likely not have been immediately fatal.

Remember that all dag arrows are assumed to be immediately fatal/disabling if they strike the torso.

Those things in mind can you defend your stance that they are far less then 100% protection?

Also please don't say non-chain since ring maille is not chain but by definition is not plate and hence would not gain this bonus.

Define 'more issues than it solves.' There's already a pretty strong two point argument backing the idea; being that players can't feel arrows through plate and that plate actually protected against arrows. That accounts for Playability and Realism at the very least.

Being able to discern if armor is metal quickly during combat, referring to a Coat of Plates.  This can cause confusion and decrease playability.

Since this has already been quoted in this thread as a defense to adding this, http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/Champ_Bane_Archery-Testing.pdf

Plate, yes, that will stop arrows.  However, a CoP will not.  You will be hurt and possibly receive fatal blow depending on the arrow.  This means it would be unrealistic to add arrow immunity to all "non-ringed metal armor."

With this, you are agreeing to a tiered armor system.  However, only plate is benefiting.  If you want to complicate things for realism, the armor tiering would need to be something similar to:
Plate: arrow immunity, Single green immunity, 1 extra blue hit
Other non-ringed metal armor: 2 arrow hits for death/limb loss, Single green immunity, 1 extra blue hit
Chain: Single green immunity, 1 extra blue hit
Leather: 1 extra blue hit

This, in my opinion, would severely overcomplicate the rules regarding armor and slow down the game.  But if you are going to add a tiered armor system, you have to do it right or not do it all.

I also think it would be a balance issue, but that would require playtesting to determine that.

I think "people hate archers and wish they would go away" is a pretty strong point as well.

I don't think that would ever pass but it would be nice.

Actually looking at the numbers the CoP was more protective suffering a penetration of .3" in the first test and .4" in the second as opposed to .5" in both tests for the plate. However this was only from one type of arrow and the author concludes that due to the small size of the wound unless it strikes a major organ it was not likely immediately fatal.

As for your tiered armor system that is seriously some slippery slope there man. It's called compromise. Personally I think playablity is more compelling than realism in this case.

And remember plate as proof opens the door to never having to worry about archers again. Well except for your hands, knees, and elbows.

Define 'more issues than it solves.' There's already a pretty strong two point argument backing the idea; being that players can't feel arrows through plate and that plate actually protected against arrows. That accounts for Playability and Realism at the very least.

I think "people hate archers and wish they would go away" is a pretty strong point as well.

So we agree that people choosing persona over combat advantage exists now and would exist if plate became proof. We also agree that plate is sexy and realistic. How is plate as proof not a net positive step forwards to a more visually appealing and realistic game?


...

...

For argument's sake:

Plate being sexy is a questionable statement.  Plate being "sexy" is an opinion, regardless of popularity, and will not agreed upon by everybody.  A majority of armor being plate and that being realistic can also come into question when you are looking at the game through the Dark Age lens.

...

I was refering to this

... Sure, it might look nicer and be more realistic, but I would rather see people do what they want to do and do it well. ...

I was asking if I was correct that we agree on these two points. Am I mistaken that we agree on these points?

We agree that if plate as proof passes people will faced with a choice of combat advantage over strict persona adherence. Do we agree that people are already faced with that choice?

I think that your stance that allowing plate as proof would be more game breaking then the current status is false. I have listed many issues that this address and can think of only two that it creates.

Frankly as far as I can tell your arguments consist solely of non plate wearing personae being questionably penalized and unspecified game play issues.

You say that fixing the imbalance between metal and leather is best addressed by increasing the requirements for leather to be considered armor. To this I say that because leather significantly lighter as well more flexible then metal the required changes to the specifications would render leather armor unworkable.

As to the semantics argument: I'm not against lowering the protection of leather I just don't think it will get the support needed to pass. Also I think the rule that arrows ignore armor causes problems and is unbalanced and therefore should be adjusted. They still get to ignore leather so it's not being removed completely.

And since when is it required to have a persona that fits your gear?  That may only be the case for SOME of you, and if you do, it's by choice, so you're accepting full responsibility for the limitations you place on yourself.

I believe this argument goes both ways though.  People currently wearing any metal armor, have made the decision to wear heavier armor to achieve the look they want without receiving a combat advantage.

The difficulty inherent in plate for noticing arrow strikes is a playablity issue.

I agree with this but I believe making plate immune to arrows causes more playability issues than it solves.

I would be for reducing leather protection to green weapons as this would give slight advantages to both chain and non-chain metal if, after playtesting, it was deemed to be beneficial for the game and did not add confusion.

So we agree that people choosing persona over combat advantage exists now and would exist if plate became proof. We also agree that plate is sexy and realistic. How is plate as proof not a net positive step forwards to a more visually appealing and realistic game?


I can see how the change would change the way the game as played but not that it would create issues.

I think reducing the protection of leather will be met with objection on the grounds that it removes something already in place in the game.

Devaryn I think you are limiting yourself when you only approach this from a realism standpoint.

The difficulty inherent in plate for noticing arrow strikes is a playablity issue.

If plate users tend to congregate in crushes and lines it reduces arrow bounce back in tight quarters due to fewer arrows being shot into these areas. That is a safety issue.

It gives a means for people that play this game for hand to hand fighting to not have to worry about arrows while still allowing archers to play the same scenarios on the same field. That is a game culture issue.

It removes some of the need for large shields. With fewer barn doors line combat could very well become faster and more dynamic. That is a tactical issue.

Metal is more protective than leather in the real world but not in dag. That is a logic issue.

In short allowing plate as proof vs arrows makes gear selection richer and more varied while addressing some known problems.

The only problems with this proposal that I have identified and not resolved are people "wonder womaning" arrows to protect an unarmoured torso and the difficulty in distinguishing between metal and hardened leather CoPs at archery engagement distances.

-Purposefully swatting arrows out of the air with anything but a shield still results in death.  I'd reference realism there again.  The whole reason why you can't knock an arrow out of the air with your sword is because we're IMAGINING them to be so fast (and smaller) that you'd have to be a kung fu master to even dream of doing such a thing.

But purposefully blocking arrows with a limb or other body part is fine though. 

Especially if you are Wonder Woman.

They are not being penalized. Nothing is being taken away from them something is simply being added to all metal armors that are not in the shape of rings. By your logic it could be argued that I am being penalized for choosing a persona that doesn't use a tower shield.

That is semantical.  If rules like this were to pass, comparing now and then, sure there would be no penalty.  But that is irrelevant.  The only thing that would matter would be the rules as they stood at that moment in time.  At that time, there would be a penalty compared to plate.

I don't believe the tower shield is a strong comparison, however, the tower shield penalty is the fact that you are sacrificing active offensive ability for more passive defense.

Potato-tomato but I don't see it as leather being penalized compared to plate but rather both things are boosted from no armor at all.

Also the plate penalty is trading weight for protection. Or the leather penalty is trading protection for weight. Or the unarmored penalty is trading protection for never having to deal with armor.

Right now plate is being penalized because it's encumbering solely due to its weight over leather. All the tin cans get in trade is the ability to look dead sexy.

Here's my horse in the race. I really want metal lamellar armor for my kit. However all commercially available metal lamellar is of too thin a gauge to be dag legal as well as being expensive. I could special order thicker plates from someone that cuts them. Then I would have an expensive and time consuming  armor in a box (just at rope). When all is said and done I'd have armor that was significantly heavier then it needing to historically be while only offering the same in game bonus as armor of dubious protective value (leather).

Or I could give up the image I want and wear leather.

There already exists an imbalance in armor and it's the sole result of the false equality of materials that dag enforces.

I am not trying to say that plate has no place on the field.  I would just hate to see a paradigm shift to late century armor because of possible combat advantages.  Sure, it might look nicer and be more realistic, but I would rather see people do what they want to do and do it well.  If somebody wants to be a Dark Age Knight wearing chain or a Barbarian wearing leather, I don't think they should be penalized in combat for what persona they want to play.

With that, I would love to see stricter requirements for leather armor.

They are not being penalized. Nothing is being taken away from them something is simply being added to all metal armors that are not in the shape of rings. By your logic it could be argued that I am being penalized for choosing a persona that doesn't use a tower shield.

The SCA bar grilles are disallowed for a reason even I, in my newbishness, can see- Realism.  Bar Grilles are essentially exploiting the Meta of 'we're using large sticks to fight instead of thin bits of pointy metal' to provide near-perfect visibility with great protection- which is perfectly fine for a sport where you're taking full-force blows to the head.  But Dag is less 'sportlike' in its rules and playing- the Grille just plain doesn't exist historically, because it doesn't work in real combat, and Dag wants to reflect that.

I would like to offer a three word rebuttal to this statement. "Tinted safety glasses."

You know, there's so many people from all different parts of the game saying that plate should be made more desirable...we might have enough voters at this point to actually make something happen about that.

But let's keep it simple.  Baby steps.

What would you prefer as a rule change, if you HAD to pick only one?

1) Plate armor absorbs 2 blue shots, basically an additional +1 over wearing any other armor.

2) Plate armor is immune to arrows.

Plate as proof vs arrows is a person ideal of mine and I am building a series of arguments for it. There exist certain issues with it that I haven't found a solution too though.

Victory! Now back to knee walking. Everyone that does it looks silky.

Silky?

I believe I remember something about how when longbows were used against plate, they actually had blunter, heavier tips, and were used kinda like a long-ranged hammer- you could get a ton of force concentrated on a relatively small area with one, and so could potentially knock a knight right off his feet.  Bodkins were for use against chain and cloth armours, while broadheads were almost exclusively for hunting.

That would be a poor idea since tests show that cloth performs poorest against cutting.

it has crappy sleeves that are tied on is what you mean 

It's a "convertible."

 Hell, I wear a black underarmor shirt underneath my gambeson when I'm in armor, simply to hide my blindingly-white armpits every time I raise my arm. 

This confuses me. Why would your compression shirt, or your armpit, be visible if it's under your gambeson?

Because it's vented.

i would be ok with no limit shields if they weren't so damned overpowered in this game. You can carry a shield that can litterally float to earth, but can withstand the shots of a thousand armed men? change something about that equation and I am find with open ending the shield size limit.

Coreless shields do not protect against arrows. Coreless shields are clearly meant to represent woven wicker shields which an arrow could easily penetrate.

why would boar tusk or horn helmets be illegal?

Not leather or metal.

Kili, what realm are you with?

I want it to be right too, but I am limited in what we can do to collect the information.  So the only option is to use the official list.  I'll see what I can do, but it's a MONSTROUS undertaking. 

http://dagorhir.com/chapters/index.htm

Also, there have been only 4 pre-orders. At this rate, I will only order a very limited number of retail shirts to sell so as not to get stuck with a huge level of unsold stock, so I gotta strongly encourage people to take advantage of the pre-ordering option.

100% of net shirt proceeds go to charities: American Heart Association; cancer survivors, animal rescue and disabled veterans.

He's in Angaron. As it's listed on the webpage it's "sunhawks" and "clan "akiyama" on the shirt it's "sunhawks clan" and "akiyama." Also the Sarmatins are apparently an unit in the outsiders rather then a prefix for Klar. The realm listed as being in Grandview Missouri is Dominion of the Unconquered Sun making their first unit the Mykridian Infantry.

The length and cut of the torso. If you get a big one so it's long enough it looks like you are wearing a sack. If you get one that doesn't look like a sack it is too short.

Tunics aren't short. Saying a t-shirt is a short tunic is like saying a vest is a short robe.

Woot thank you!

Yes, weight lifting belt.  Figured leather, broad, and a little back support never hurt anyone.  I would definitely hide the logos.

So, no issues with the buckles?  I read you need to even hide pockets so I wasn't sure...

Thanks!

Buckles have a long and storied history.

Hospitallers/ Knights of St. John were pretty much exclusively Catholic into the gunpowder age until they faded out. None of the current Hospitaller orders/ Knights of St. John are definitively related to the original order. In the time period you're looking at, they would be considered Knights of The Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem, with the city changing to Rhodes around 1312 and Malta around 1530. Armor in that time period would range from maille and great helms to coats-of-plates and bascinets. For a Russian persona, your best bet would be to stick with chainmail and a conical helm from everything I've seen. You'd have a black or red surcoat or outer gambeson with a white cross. If you were on campaign in the Holy Land, you'd have a lot of linen garb. Otherwise, a lot of wool with linen undergarments. You'd be required to wear a white cap, coif, or turban on your head at all times. While there were Russian Hospitallers at this time, they didn't play a big part in Russian political movement until later in history, around 1698. So you'd be a Hospitaller that happens to be a Russian, as opposed to a Russian Hospitaller.

Pretty sure SMOM would be willing to fight you on history statement.

Cass counts for 2

It looks like he's spotted some cake.

Wasn't this part of somebody's package that was trampled two years ago at RWC?

Kyrax is correct.

Units and chapters on the shirt come DIRECTLY from the Dagorhir chapters page, letter for letter.  There just is no other way to do it.  If you want your unit on the shirt, you gotta speak to the Dag powers about getting on the chapters page.  Sorry.

There are some typographical errors where the symbol that seperates the realm and unit names appear with in some groups.

Are the wolves of asguard in the back?

No. But I can loan you a sharpie.

[Helmet Armor rules]

Helmet Armor rules
Current Rule:
5.1.7 Head and neck armor and helmets protect from yellow and white weapon
hits to the head and neck.

Proposed Rule:
5.1.7 Head and neck armor and helmets protect from yellow and white weapon hits to the head and neck as long as the crown of the head is covered in addition to any other head/neck armor coverage. Note: per rule 5.1.2.1 gaps in the armor of 3/4ths of an inch or more mean that that spot is not “armored”, so an arrow or javelin that hits and covers an eyehole or opening in face plates larger than that is considered to have struck and killed the target.

Discussion:
This requires more than just a face-mask for protection from missiles.
 

This nerfs gorgets and other forms or armoured collars.

Personalized and over 180 sounds better than average to me.

This is just a question but can  a healing poem be open to be different on situation. Like i always get there name nad injury and do an improv poem pretty much?

No improv; this is not jazz.

Abandon ship, spacewolf.

"Drinking the Kool-Aid" refers to the 1978 Jonestown Massacre; the phrase suggests that one has mindlessly adopted the dogma of a group or leader without fully understanding the ramifications or implications. . .

You do realize that this contradicts your previous statement?

The sentence right after that one in the quote describes that the people drank a kool-aid like drink with cyanide in it. Which is what Magnus originally referred to.

It's an idiom. The actual event that it refers to and the meaning of the phrase are different by definition.

"Drinking the Kool-Aid" refers to the 1978 Jonestown Massacre; the phrase suggests that one has mindlessly adopted the dogma of a group or leader without fully understanding the ramifications or implications. . .

You do realize that this contradicts your previous statement?

They also exported. If I recall correctly German armor was big in the british isles .

Pshh Blackhawk, that's it?  I'd step to the shield side while throwing a corkscrew feint into a short cross, then use the edge of my shield to pull his shield away from his body (I call this an Edge Pick, totally sweet move brah) while I feint a pocket stab into a scorpion hook.  Then if that doesn't work, or he takes arm instead of death, I pivot into a spin so I can throw a 520 deep wrap darkside with a little extra glitter to make it sting.

I counter all that with a 301, that's right, a 301, it's a Maryland zip code cause I invented it in Maryland dammit!

Area code.

and nobody will.

Watch out there Svava you SCA is leaking all over the place :Put

When people start suggesting we should have organized steel or rattan fighting at events or events where fighting is not the focus that will be the point I agree we have an SCA leak issue.

uh oh, Svava, better not tell Jari about the belly dance for Dagorhirrim workshop we put on two weeks ago, that attracted teachers who teach and perform nationally.

To be fair, we also made sure to set up a fight practice right outside the studio.

well, credit where credit is due, Jade set up the fighter practise.  if you thought of it, we didn't discuss it.  i sure hadn't thought of it and replied "I guess if you want to *shrug*" when she suggested it to me.

Way to yank the carpet out from under me gypsy.

I don't think we need them anymore than we need structured "things to do" for those who do wish to fight.

No the sum total of his charm rests in his hair. He's like the Sampson of interpersonal relationships.

Damn Ravus, that is gorgeous!

No, no praise; he'll become insufferable.

Watch out there Svava you SCA is leaking all over the place

When people start suggesting we should have organized steel or rattan fighting at events or events where fighting is not the focus that will be the point I agree we have an SCA leak issue.

Hanzo, you make the 14th century look badass.

Actually I think it's the other way round.

Something like this Mordecai? This is marked as an Archer Spangenhelm on kult of athena for $70 bones. (Ihave no idea if that's good or not, just asking for clarification on shape)

Sadly that helm is 14 gauge and thus not legal for Dagorhir. This is an extension of the gauge problem that was being discussed on Angaron facebook.

...Easily harder than most steel helmets I've seen and held...

Nope.

Wait. No guys see: If leather can be harder then most steel then there is no reason to disallow metal hands, and elbows, knees, and toes, knees and toes.