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So all of the pocket brig will now be pocket plate brig? I don't think that you will get what you are intending. What about splinted armor? Or are we just going to arbitrarily decide what is "effective" armor or not?

Honestly, I don't think that people don't want to wear plate armor as it is. Everyone knows that well made plate looks bada**, but its a matter of means. Don't forget most of the people that play this game are broke as sh** so they work with what ever they have.

The victor could be reasonably sure that they would have just won a real fight if the weapons had been real.

Part of the reason why I wear armor is because there can be a pretty large gap in calibration between fighters. I expect that when I get hit, it should tear my friggin arm off. BUT if I only took hits that would actually hurt me, then I would ignore 90% of the friggin shots on the field. Armor is a way for me to bridge the gap of "meh, kinda light but I'll take it" and actually feeling like I got killed before I die.


Personally though, we have play tested "3 hits = death" or a "lethal blow=death" and it is awesome.  Doesn't matter where, or if you have armor or not. The lethal blow encourages harder hits and penalizes unarmored folks because they feel the hit worse. It's generally something like a sharp kidney shot or a gut stab that would be lethal, the kind of shot that makes you pause after you got hit. (Reds still take 3 hits but have an inherent advantage, and shields take 3 reds to help equalize)

In this case, the armor needs to actually be armor

This makes me think though, does that mean its not okay to kick the bottom edge of your opponent's shield to slam them in the jaw?

My most favorite type of shield kick.

its so funny

Especially when it's so nicely braced against their jaw already. It's a service really. Education and such!

Why do i have this picture of some poor guy looking for his tongue on a field after his own shield gets kicked into his face?

It's often the same image I have, which is why I wont actually slam it up into their mouth. I have nudged it before enough for them to go "Oh, I shouldn't put that there." Still, I've done it before when it's not against the body and the angle is such that it's more likely to go in front of their face than into their jaw. In reality, if it looks like it'll knock into their face, I don't do it. There are some times I really want to though.

It's not like 99.95% of Dagorhirim lead with their face or anything..

The original intent of posting a dollar sign was to say I didn't want it for free and was willing to pay, apparently it had the opposite effect :/

Doesn't look like this board is any good for ride shares anyways, guess I'll have to try elsewhere.

This is really getting ridiculous. My point isn't "how little can I pay for a ride" its I need a ride. I don't care what my part of the split is, as long as its a fair portion.

I was looking at ~$300 for a bus ticket and was hoping to get better than that, so anywhere under that is fine for me. (Honestly I've planned for ~$300 total for the trip including gate fee and food, so that leaves nearly $200 for gas if I had to)

$50 was the MINIMUM I was expecting to pay, maybe I need to clarify this..

I see someone doesn't want me in their personal space

The forearm blocking comes after I have already gripped the weapon, so its just using leverage to block the motion of their sword arm. That's a good concern though, I'll try and make sure specifically that I don't strike their forearm before I grab the weapon.

To paint it a little better, I would probably use my left hand to grab the weapon (and the opponent is right handed).

I think Ilyas has the most of it, it's the outline.

T-Shirt



Tunic


Notice the gussets below the arms that give more of a billow to the top portion and the gores that widen out the lower half. That and length, a tunic should reach to your knees where a shirt is to the belt line. That's also incorporated into its design, since the gores allow you more freedom of motion than a "long t-shirt" would.

We actually all paused after that fight to discuss if it was a grapple or not, and everyone agreed it wasn't. For us its defined in the "wrestling in a safe manner".

Reading through the rules again there is a tag line, "Body checks (blocking your opponent's movement using one's body) are allowed." under the grappling section. So would that lead to the assumption that body checks are considered grappling? I hadn't ever considered it like that but I guess its a fair interpretation.


What about leather armor though Dev? I'm under the general impression that getting checked by leather is not the same as getting checked by plate.
And I would not have done the above with plate either.

This makes me think though, does that mean its not okay to kick the bottom edge of your opponent's shield to slam them in the jaw?

Ok, that's roughly what I figured. The pinky example is pretty good though, lol.

That is a good point though, as far as difference of opinions. Locally we don't have enough grappling that anyone has bothered to differentiate between armored/unarmored so it usually isn't a problem. On the other hand though most of our fighters have leather armor, which imo isn't the target of the grappling rule as much as metal is.


Another borderline question, is blocking their hand movement with an open hand while wearing armor (and/or gauntlets) a legitimate move? I mean the same scenario I described before but I have a single sword and block their swing by pushing their hand with my hand.


Dev, I think we have entirely different opinions about what grappling is, lol. To me grappling is physically engaging your opponent in such a way that they cannot disengage. So basically, anything that I do that you could potentially walk away from (and/or let go of your weapon) is not a grapple. I understand though that people have different opinions, so I probably wouldn't ever grapple outside my own park. That and people seem to not like grappling in general :/

An example of what I mean.
I got armed once while fighting S&B vs. another S&B. My opponent had a mace ~36" with ~12" striking surface. I grabbed for the haft of his weapon and successfully caught it. I then tried to take the weapon. My opponent fell down and we continued to fight over the weapon. While he was on the ground I considered using my leg as leverage or holding him down with my back but I didn't because I was wearing armor (we both were in fact). The reason being, to me if I had suppressed him it would have initiated a grapple whereas before it was not a grapple.

My point being, here specifically he could have at any point let go of the weapon to disengage. The end result of that being independent, he always had the choice. If I had held him down then he would have lost that choice.

I'm still looking for a ride if anyone has an empty seat.

[insufficient]

So I've been trying out bare handed disarms, and it seems to work decently.
The question I have though, is when I engage it seems fairly common for the opponent's weapon to touch me with insufficient force (tap/graze) because I have blocked their forearm with my forearm to keep them from swinging. The hits are generally not even them attempting to swing but the weapon flopping as I engage.

Is it alright for me to ignore these though?

Another question, is this still alright for me to do with armor on? Specifically grabbing the opponents handle, blocking their forearm, and shoving into them with my right shoulder. I'm pretty sure its not grappling, but don't want to overstep my bounds. I only grab the handle of the weapon btw, not the person.

In reference to the hand/foot rules,

If the body part that contacts the striking surface of the weapon with the intent to manipulate it is armored, is it still lost on contact? Specifically armored gauntlets or bracers. For cases were the contact is momentary and not sustained (e.x. swatting).


Also, are you guys interested in adding some of the generally accepted unwritten rules?
like:

Shields must be rigid. (i.e. the edges of a shield cannot touch or “taco”)

Green legal tips must not be able to be moved easily from side to side.

Especially since the second one is a common mode of failure.

[block]

I'm not hating on striking the flat, that's the current rule (but it specifies flat of a blade, so I need to re-add that).  If you want to remove that restriction, that's a different proposal. 

I think you are extrapolating the rules a bit there. It says that if you block with your hand or foot it's lost. To me, blocking is stopping or arresting the motion of the weapon. What I would do by striking the flat of a weapon would be more akin to a parry. I know, semantics, but its a big difference. The only way to block with a strike to the flat is if they are swinging it with the flat facing forward.

I've never believed that a non-striking edge of a weapon could deal damage.

The only part were it hazes for me is, like you mentioned, when they trap the weapon. That's a clear exploitation of the size of foam weapons and their ability to be compressed. Again though, I generally accept it if its a 1 or 2 sided weapon and they can show they are not in contact with it's striking surface.

Just to give a general example where this would apply.
If I see another fighter's weapon static in the air, I can smack it with an open hand on the flat. Its generally not going to be usable, but still is something I think that should be allowed.

[Proposed Rule:]

Proposed Rule:
3.3.2 - Leg: From the foot to the point of the hip (below the buttocks and crotch).
3.3.3 - Arm: From the hand to the shoulder socket.
3.3.6 – Gripping, trapping or intentionally striking the striking surface (or flat if applicable) of a weapon wielded by an opponent results in the loss of the hit location(s) that are in contact with the weapon.
3.3.7 - Hands are unaffected by non-yellow weapon hits if the hand struck is holding a weapon or the handle of a shield. Feet are unaffected by any weapon hits if the foot struck is on the ground. For this purpose the hand begins past the wrist joint, and the foot below the ball of the ankle.
4.5.3.13 If an arrow or javelin hits a fighter’s hand, that arm is lost (regardless of whether the hand held a weapon or shield).

Comparing to the current rules:

3.3 - Hit Locations: Hit locations include Torso, Leg, Arm, head and Neck, Feet and Hands
3.3.1 - Torso: shoulders (including arm sockets), chest, stomach, crotch, sides, back, and buttocks.
3.3.2 - Leg: From the top of the foot (including ankle) to the point of the hip torso (below the buttocks and crotch).
3.3.3 - Arm: From point where the hand joins the wrist to the shoulder socket
3.3.4 - Head: Off limits to all weapon/shield strikes except yellow and white projectile weapons.
3.3.5 - Neck: Off limits to all weapon/shield strikes except yellow and white projectile weapons. NOTE: Neck is unaffected by hits from white projectile weapons.
3.3.6 - Gripping, trapping or intentionally striking the striking surface (or flat if applicable) of a weapon wielded by an opponent results in the loss of the hit location(s) that are in contact with the weapon. Hands and Feet: Intentionally blocking any blow with a hand which is not gripping a weapon or the handle of a shield results in the loss of that arm. Intentionally blocking any blow with foot results in the loss of that leg. Gripping the blade or point of your opponent's weapon with your hand results in the loss of that arm.
3.3.7 - Hands are unaffected by non-yellow weapon hits if the hand struck is holding a weapon or the handle of a shield. Feet are unaffected by any weapon hits if the foot struck is on the ground. For this purpose the hand begins past the wrist joint, and the foot below the ball of the ankle. Hands and feet are unaffected by weapon hits if:
3.3.7.1 - The foot is on the ground; if the foot is in the air when it is hit, it is considered a hit to the leg.
3.3.7.2 - Hands are holding a weapon or the handle of a shield. When not holding anything, hands are considered part of the arm.

...

4.5.3.13 - If an arrow or javelin hits a fighter's hand, that arm is lost (regardless of whether the hand held a weapon or shield).

I like that its trying to clarify the "hand on weapon" rule, but I think its still a bit too loose worded. Specifically I don't like the word "trapped". It implies that if I manipulate my opponents weapon then the "zone in contact" is lost, but I guess there isn't a zone so it doesn't matter. But honestly that's a bit of an outside loop. It also brings the possibility that I am manipulating your weapon and THEN come into contact with your weapon. Not using my body as force, but in a graze or tap. Through these rules it would be considered a hit.

Personally I would prefer something along the lines of,

Using a body part to alter or impede the path of your opponent's weapon (through contact with it's striking surface) will result in a loss of that location.

Then for thoroughness you could add something like,

Sustained physical contact with the striking surface of an opponents weapon (in which they may not disengage) will result in a death.

To keep people from thinking they can grab the blade, call arm, then continue to hold it as they finish their attack.

Also, why hate on striking the flat? Its not a legal striking edge, so imo its just as fine to smack as a haft.

I don't like how you have tried to mix the definition of hand/arm and foot/leg. It makes sense for the game, but physically they are not the same thing.

Other than that, I'm pretty sure the "giving more power to javelins" issue has already been covered.

I have a 1/2" fiberglass core from 4 years ago that's on its third rebuild. I wouldn't worry about it for 1/2" and if you are using 3/8" then once it splinters it will have hardly any flex left to it anyways. I'm not entirely sure how your theory works though.

What kind of cover are you using? Some covers do little to help preserve the blade. I'm still confused about what you mean though. Is the foam itself ripping? Or is it detaching from the core? Please post a pic though if you can, its the easiest way to tell whats going on.

you should post pics of the build

But yeah I wouldn't tape the core, but also puzzle mat usually needs to be DAP'd more because it soaks up the DAP. So I usually DAP once, let it dry, then DAP again. Don't forget also to press the layers together to make sure they are in full contact.

Also, carpet tape is awesome for wrapping handles.

What do you mean by heavier contact points on the red swords?

I said $50 b/c that's a 4 way split getting ~25mpg. I guess idk how much the gas is on the way so it could flux a bit. I said more/less depending, because if it's a two way split of course I'm paying more (upwards to ~$100).

Please don't take me the wrong way, I am trying to say I expect to pay in full for the ride.

(seems there isn't a main thread for this, or at least I couldn't find it.)

I'm looking for a carpool/ride to rag this year from Rolla, MO. I can probably meet up in a nearby city also.
I'm expecting to pay at least $50, depending on space. Please have room for my spear (if not that's ok too)


(edited for clarity)

Just one, on the end of the post. I used a bunch of different stuff... but what worked best was a jigsaw (after I cut the initial hole) I snapped the blade though.

The post slides through the hole and hits the inside of the tire. It can move a little side to side but for most part stays good.

I cut a hole in the bottom of mine and stuck it on a 4" dia post.
Then made a portable pell bottom out of a 5gal bucket with 4" dia pvc pipe and concrete filled around it.

It is terrible for stability though. I'm planning on putting that bucket into another tire and filling that with concrete as well. I made a wooden base for it but its all shot to hell.

Btw, portable as in I can take it apart and move it around the yard. Its still a bit heavy for me to want to haul it elsewhere. If you have a good place that you wouldn't mind dedicating, I'm sure making a permanent one would be worth it.

I think you have it backwards a bit as well.

HE Sir Sagan "the Kingmaker" teaches Practice vs. Training

From the video,
"Training is learning the technique, practice is implementing it"
"Training is absolutely safe to the trainee"
"Practice is the proof of your training"

The first part you are talking about training muscle memory.
The second part is still training I think, just training unit tactics.


BH, I agree somewhat but think that you can only do that after you have had a decent level of training. You can still learn by practicing without training but it is much slower. We have a ton of guys with zero shot placement because they have never trained on a pell. All their muscle training comes from sloppy snap decisions during practice. Will they eventually stop hitting people in the head? Yeah, but if they used a pell it would take a week instead of a year.

I think what you are getting at though is it is hard to train without knowing what you are fighting against and how to defeat it. Which would be why its important to get outside information and advice.

Since our realm is smaller we can take a look at the issues you all are having & try to incorporate them earlier on so *hopefully* they're more of a non issue in the future.

Trying to do this as well. I'm attempting to bring us from "show up and swing" each week to developing skill and control, learning technique/proper form, spreading foam tech, building good garb kits, etc.

The major problem I have with convincing people that anything is worth it, with the low level of effort needed to be able to swing a stick and "hit" someone. It seems not as many people care about lethally defeating your opponent as I would like :/

Of course we could start playing by a house rule of 3 hits = dead, doesn't matter where. It helped make it a lot less of a sniping game and instead defeating defenses and crushing. But that just complicates it for us if we go to events :/

You are right Scheiny, I should have asked "how to foster group spirit?".
The tone of it got shifted though because I have a friend that was half blind already, got hit in the head, and had to have eye surgery for a detached retina. He can't fight ever again now (doctor's orders), but still comes to practice all the time. He is going to be our diplomat to the Residence Hall Association, but I also want to fit in more stuff that we can all do other than fight.

We are also part of a school club, so hosting things locally to do all the time is part of the M.O. that we haven't been doing enough.

Min garb is an issue for us though at the moment. Currently we have 1-2 out of ~6-8 people that show up garbed. We took a hard hit last fall when a fight killed off half our recruits and half of our vets got busy with work and stopped coming. Trouble for me is convincing people that it is worth it to wear garb. Since we are a club and have funding, my idea is to pump out a bunch of tabards to loan out to members and at least get them covered. I want to require tabards as minimum garb by the 3rd practice, but I don't know if I can get support from the other officers on this :/
(note: minimum garb as in for practice, events req. full garb)

At our point though, garb is what makes it prominently medieval instead of mundane.

I really like your idea though Kade, I need to start asking people what they are interested in and encouraging them to build a kit to suite. I think everyone just goes straight medieval=knight, so I need to make sure they know they can do w/e they want as far as culture/fantasy.

... your willing to spend money on a router but your gonna use pool noodle....

just curious, what would you prefer? I've built everything I have, so although its tempting I'm not sure if I want to buy kits. Mostly I want a router and these bats are an excuse to buy one (and also a test dummy).

I don't fight with pool noodle, but I also use swords. The reason for the pool noodle is an easy way to build an omni. I used to build a lot of omni's, but they take too much foam and are too much effort to build right.

I'm just spitballing for the router though, not entirely sure if I will get it or not.

Awesome!

I guess I might as well ask here instead of a new thread, whats a good router to use? I'm planning to route for 3/8" and 1/2" cores. Hoping to spend less than $100 on the router/bits.

We recently got a Dollar Tree and I'm wondering if Dollar Tree fuh-noodle is better than Dollar General or if I should fork it up for Fun-noodle from Walmart. Or is there a better place to buy it online that's similar in pricing?

Don't worry though, I'm making newbie weapons and training bats.

The plan is to use 3/8" fiberglass and route a box from floor mat to fit inside the tube.

Can a penny fit through the holes? I can't tell for sure but they look close to 3/4".

and use rawhide cord. You could also try and find decorative rivets to cover the holes.

How is it harnessed to the shoulders? It looks like a rope wrapped around the guys neck.

I've used a floor mat that may have been Gold's Gym floor mat before and when I checked it was actually closer to a 6# foam instead of 4#, so maybe you have an extra dense box foam.

The swords we built out of that were beasts, they weighed 12oz almost even without counterweight but still hit pretty hard. Part of that though I think is the lack of counterweight makes more of an "axe" or high impact effect compared to a sword.

The problem we have been having is that even-though we get new people fairly often, there has been a horrible tendency for people to show up for a bit and then get busy with homework/work/tests and stop showing up then eventually forget about it.

My intent is to get people more involved so they care more about the group and it can shift a little bit higher on people's priorities. It just seems when we do a lot of just fighting that people are generally either out there to have fun or blow off steam, and there are plenty of other ways to do that.

I like the idea of going out in garb, I'd heard about people going out to eat garbed up too. I thought about just walking our campus in garb, but I bet you are right. I should at least have a second (or more) so I'm not just a weirdo, lol.

What are some good ways to involve non-combatants? I'm wanting to start hosting more non-com activites to add more depth to our group and also to give our non-coms something fun to do.

The kind of things I'm thinking of:
More frequent build sessions
Movie nights (can be training vids, battle videos, or other random movies)
Feasts (generally potluck, but might do free food and demos)
competitions - bardic, PD/build, garb, cooking, etc. (generally during a tournament)

howies hockey tape. they claim to be the best in the world and after using/selling a case last year i do not doubt them, fantastic stuff.

http://howieshockeytape.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59

ugh, I want some. But I don't want to buy a full dozen or pay ~$10 shipping for one :/

Thanks for the share

[blocked]

Agreed Alric, you can't change the trajectory of an arrow by any means other than a shield or head armor without suffering damage and intentional blocking by anything other than the above mentioned results in death.
(i.e. punch block arrows = death)

Although there is a contradicting statement in the current rule, where it mentions

Arrows cannot be caught, blocked, deflected, or knocked out of the air by anything else, including hands, feet, weapons, or other equipment.

and

If an arrow is blocked intentionally with anything other than a body part, shield, or head armor, the fighter doing the blocking is dead automatically.

So basically the current rule says you can't punch block arrows but it doesn't kill you if you do.. :/

I'd just like to say, the weapon I made with this style is still in use.

Awesome, the only problem I have had is after ~3 months the 1.25" box layer can slip off the core. Its a pretty easy fix though, just DAP and reapply. I'm guessing though that if I used a clamp or something like others suggest that it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

You don't need to feel the hit for archery.
The only requirement is "strikes with the head" and "slightly deflected"

With that in mind, its a completely different game than melee just because you don't get to decide if it was a good hit or not. Probably part of the reasoning why another person (i.e. the archer) gets to say if it "deflected" off you or not.

I think that is mostly a spin off of
"4.5.3.8 - ...If an arrow is blocked intentionally with anything other than a body part, shield, or head armor, the fighter doing the blocking is dead automatically."

Key is intentionally, but I think its pretty clear the difference between "swatting" arrows and just having your weapon up.

you could get a giant rope for footwork drills like these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHab4C6pFbM

fighters who take good deaths get to resurrect on the spot

Awesome

I almost did a single blue on first day rule, but I'm in agreeance with it being a bad idea. It may be "better" for learning technique but most people when they start just wanna hit people.

We used to have a problem with headshots, but it was mostly min-red fighters in bridge or inf. res battles. We have been doing ditches, warlord, and meat grinders (single life stuff) mostly now and haven't had much of a problem at all.

I think the "rule" we play by for it though is if you are hit in the head any other shot on you during that volley doesn't count. I think most people play by that anyways though.

We do somewhat have an advantage though because most people at our park use loaners (school=busy blah blah excuses) and we don't supply reds/spears, lol.

I started ~4 yrs ago. I think I've said this before but I've notice a lot less "fluffy" weapons even through my time. When I started it was all poof football spears and opencell stabbies. Maybe my realm was a bit behind, but we are using completely different weaponry.

@Isla
the only thing I've seen bought ~commonly for our realm is metal armor (and thats only one guy). Granted I'm a bit of an over-smith and no one in my realm is for lack of weapons, but we've been slack on garb and its been left to the winds (although I've tried to revive it by wearing mine each time :/ we will see)

Like you said though, its good tutorials that help out a lot. I'm pretty sure that if it wasn't for Alric's Bockstein tutorial and Arrakis' Spear tutorial I would still be wearing a "handmade t-shirt-esque tunic" and toting a poof spear. Yeah I've slowly worked my blue sword tech up (after ~50 weapons) to be acceptable for contemporary tech, but a lot of other people I know still work off sandwiches, have 2" wide blades, and wrap pommels with no counterweight. Part of the reason I posted my tutorial, to save other people that ~3 years of experimenting, lol.

@Blk
Colors are part of the game, after a while you won't think its dagorhir unless you hear them. It works without calling on the small scale but at a large event its needed. For example, not red/green but when I get hit by an arrow in the head half the time I'm like, "did someone bump me?" then I look around and see the archer motioning *dead* and I'm like "oooh, aight." I mean since there isn't any physical "damage" its sometimes hard to tell what happened. But more often than not, if you hit clean and hard they will take it with/without calling.

As for res battles, I used to run them all the time at my park but quit after I moved out of state for a bit and played at a different park. They NEVER ran res battles, I begged them to once and they did for like 10 mins and never wanted to again. Res battles have more intensity (trying to hold the point, etc.) , but single life battles are much less likely to have headshots or stupid suicides(intentional or not). But it seems to me that single life battles are more combat focused where res. battles are objective focused. both are good in doses imo.

I use heavy cargo straps. Idk where to buy them but I find them on the road all the time.

They are thicker and wider than a lot of other straps which makes em a lot more comfortable. For adjusting though I Just burned multiple holes in mine for where I bolt it down.


(sorry for the terrible quality)

"Bro" - bridge
"gar" - spear

For my love of spear fighting.

Turns out they built a whole monument to worship my spear fighting back in 2500BCE

I'm getting closer to done with my armor and I'm about ready for tassets, but I'm trying to figure out how to attach them.

What's the proper method to use?
I've heard of attaching them to a gambeson or to a chestpiece and using a belt to pull the weight to the hips, but I have a segmented plate chestpiece (all leather) and no gambeson. The other option would be a kidney belt, but I would rather not have a layer of extra armor.

I have the materials for a regular width leather belt though, so what I might do is attach it by straps to the lower plate of my chestpiece and then have rings on the top of the tassets. So that way I can run my belt through them to keep them from swinging and help with the weight so it doesn't drag as bad.

Why is bruising illegal?

Along with the thread of changing tech, I think this game has gotten a lot rougher even from when I started.
It used to be all "2 inches of open cell on my striking surface because making someone uncomfortable would be bad" to 4# boxes and "no such thing as too hard."
So what are we saving ourselves by not allowing bruises?

I mean people used to play games where you fought without a shirt so you could tally the marks.

Those look awesome, but aren't they a bit heavy? It says on the site that they are 4.8oz and 3.3oz (not sure which)

lol this all reminds me,
I was fighting a newer red fighter once, he hit me flat in the side of the head.
I asked him, "what were you aiming for?" He said shoulder..
Yep, aiming for the shoulder and swinging horizontal.

Pell work and practicing each shot helps a lot with clearing up your hits.
Doesn't matter what your intent is if you don't have the shot memory.

Pell work helps a lot with shot placement.

People move but if you have a wide scatter on your shots its makes it worse.

Do you mean the town Ozark, a bit south of Springfield?
I had assumed you meant Lake of the Ozarks too till I was scrolling on google maps.

I'm not sure who is their primary contact but Ravenwood was going to host an event and the primary host was Tina Munday and I believe that Joseph Roth Wyrsch is on their council as well.

You could also ask on the Midwest Dagorhir Facebook Group