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You realize a large part of scientific method is what you learn by trial and error, right?  So if a lot of people, over many years, have already reached certain conclusions through trial and error...explain to me how that's not valid knowledge?

Sometimes you say things that make sense, this was one of them. I present you with this.?



go figure that photo is from a wholesale website...

I've always been fond of baron hold your wang, or count grab your dick, as names for him...

and leaving with a lot more money in your pocket than you hoped to 

For reference I went to rag last year with $600 ready to burn, looking for period shoes, belts, knives, chausses, braies, bockstens that didnt have a keyhole neck, and anything actually medieval.

I ended up not finding any of these pretty basic things, and bought a $150 wrist torque from Danny Hansen at the crafty celts (the one booth I love to go to and my persona is 600 years past his time) as a gift for my buddy who got engaged there that night.

past that I bought a **** ton of ice cream...

oh and enough booze and water balloons to start an impromptu party in the castle saturday night.

If your looking to go in and come out not looking like a low quality ren junkie then you will be sorely disappointed, if you want a modern kilt type thing and a ren faire shirt you'll be able to find something I'm sure.

Basically if you want "the real deal" your not gonna find it at rag, you might find some stuff for the atypical viking look (this game discovered winnigas 4 years ago and now theyre all the rage) but as far as period hardware, belts and all that your screwed.

If those torses arent done by war practice I will break your knees with a wiffle ball bat.

Looks more like a seax with the tang at an odd angle than a straight razor.

Don't straight razors need to be hollow-ground?

nah most modern ones are full hollow for ease of sharpening but I prefer half hollow, and I have been on the hunt for a period wedge profile straight razor anyhow for camping.

it has crappy sleeves that are tied on is what you mean 

If thats a medieval straight razor I am sold.

New welded maille aventail added to the new bascinet, should have a haubergon by Pennsic for the combat of the thirty.

Worth noting Sir Abdul has a turkish jacket with pockets for hardened leather plates, I always thought with the rest of his outfit it looked great, then again he was not known for half assing things together.

I read the books, I know.  Was referring to the movie, and just wanted an excuse to reference Peter Dinklage.  Because he's awesome.

there is zero shame in forcing a Peter Dinklage referece my friend.

^might have just been the most long winded way of saying "I know how to perform basic trade" I have ever heard^

The dwarves didnt fight for the Telmarines...read the damn books!

Dont worry ultimately the dwarves get locked in a barn for eternity for being scumbags...

Thats ultimately why they lose...

Not a voodoo pic in a mirror, and I certainly have pants on but I think it doesnt look too shabby...

Or if you wanna hear it from the horses mouth here is sir sagan explaining it very well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdNL5_IMnoA

One is leaving today (blue leather with white accents) and my que is empty so I can pick up another order if anyone is looking to get what I have been told now by a few people wearing them to gates my "infamous Coat of plates".

They start at $275 for a basic one and go from there.

Everything from the basic utilitarian ones


to the most absurdly luxurios

I'm aware of his name, just know this is dagorhir so prepare for all the legitimate terms to quickly be turned into something from a skate park video game "dark side" "spinny flash hitter" etc....yeah its that bad...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lls-otGcX9k

good to know someone watched that video I posted and even stole the joke from the guy...

So what I got out of that is give it another 30 years and see what happens?

If that's what you got, then that's your problem.  You clearly missed this part:

As Dagorhir has grown we have more and more people who want to share their love of a craft or skill, and who have the ability and time to do so.  All of that is good, but to expect something to magically shift from a predominantly fighting oriented game to one with the opposite focus is both unrealistic, but it's also not necessarily what we want to do. The question I'd pose is whether we as a community, us dagorhirrim, want this process to continue evolving as it is or whether we want to increase that pace (or not)?  The answer seems to be that we want this growth in non-fighting areas to continue, so the follow on question is how to do that.

Some folks have made suggestions, one of which was a specific place to hold classes.  Dev as the Ragnarok event coordinator has said that he'll provide a large rental tent for that purpose. 

I would hope that this thread focuses on ideas like those or other ways that we can grow craft and skill sharing at Ragnarok and other events.  Otherwise we're just whining like your wannabe Aragorns, and that's tiresome.   

So who is going to teach meaningful classes...I'm happy there will be a tent that will prolly cause security all sorts of issues but whats it matter if no one is teaching classes.

The Rag U thread hasnt been touched in months....

So what I got out of that is give it another 30 years and see what happens?

Firstly go to a pennsic field battle...

secondly you could easily go to SCA and wear head to toe armour and prolly be safer than you are in dag honestly. Also if your injuries are getting worse even from Dag I'm not sure what your suppose to do, or how that correlates to being even more ****ed in SCA.

I wanted the atmosphere, the crafts, the knowledge that I am not the apex of 2k people for metal armour and there would guys to learn from (and damn was I right!), harder hitting, better kits, actual battle tactics and the like.

if you want A&S your prolly not gonna find in dagorhir, if you want to tackle someone (which happens so rarely in this age of whiny bitches) do dag or battle of nations.

Go talk to some people, most of what you hear about SCA in dag is from people who went to one practice wanting to be aragorn, went home bruised and whined and never went back. I am watching some of the local dag people do it right now every wednesday at SCA practice.

BH wouldnt you also want fighters going to these things? Might help blur the line between those who fight and those who dont if there is a common bond.

Dev
As far as the SCA goes there is a reward system for those who excel in A&S and its widely accpeted and respected (we cant get dagorhirrim to respect a bathroom btw). It's also a handy way of identifying those who do know their **** and those who dont, we have no pedigree in dagorhir and no real way of distinguishing if someone is actually good at something. Also bear in mind most of these awards take years and a lot of time a decade to gain, dagorhirrim dont stick around that long (especially the craft oriented ones) but lessening the time in grade cheapens the award in my opinion.

Dont forget for two years I ran a basic armouring class at rag and it was a ****ing pain in the ass dragging all the tools there and such. First year attendance suffered because there was no hands on time, second year I wanted to accommodate for this and charged a $10 fee for materials and such, got 2 people until i said **** it went around and told people it was free, then I was up to my ass in hippies who wanted to tell me about how they were gonna make clouds armour from final fantasy...

I say its not impossible but Dagorhir would have to grow up essentially, right now its sort of the lowest common denominator for those who cant afford SCA armour but dont want to be seen as nerds doing cosplay. I think the age thing isnt one of attention spans, I've done multiple demos for children and teens. They're really the most interested. Its more an issue of cash and the environment they come into when they join dagorhir.

Changing dagorhir would be difficult because there is no justifiable "muk trap" a low hurdle to trip up the idiots from joining, in SCA heavy combat you either need to have some disposable income for armour, or you have to really want it and put some elbow grease into getting a kit (I have helped at least 4 people get into SCA for less than $200...the price of an xbox) this small and frankly easy step tends to stop most of the drug rug types from gaining entrance into the game.

If the above paragraph offended you then I am not the guy for your drum circle...
Honestly though dag needs some sort of bar of entry a hurdle to pass to weed some out. Your basically presenting a game where one of the most common pitches is "you need $20 and a pulse to play" its sort of the lifeblood of dagorhir and its one saving grace that keeps attendance going is you can always find another 16 year old with $20. However obviously this isnt the pool to draw from if you want scribes, wood workers, metal workers, armourers, coopers, cobblers, etc. They either dont have the money for these crafts or simply dont have the time due to college. 

Its a cultural thing in dag, we tell nerds they can be king for nothing and if they run their mouth long enough and loud enough they will become popular...where is the incentive then for them to do anything more? Now granted that is the assumption that people would need an incentive to better themselves and their hobby but sadly most do I guess in this sort of culture.

Dag is great when your 18 and broke in your college form, but time and again you see guys who really do care leave for other stuff cause frankly sitting around listening to dorks tell you about "platemail" or whine about part of their hobby costing them $75 gets old fast.

I love Dagorhir it got me into medieval hobbies and without I wouldnt be doing what I am now, I made lifelong friends in it, but most of us woke up or grew up and moved to bigger ponds with better food.

So besides corralling people with limited social skills together whats the solution to my A&S question?

They're there, but right now it's not been organized or funded well enough to actually make it worth it.  Hivemind said he put way too much money out of pocket for his leathermaking class, even though people who attended said they learned something useful and enjoyed the experience.  We have a good handful of wonderful seamstresses who really know their stuff, and through talking to different people here and there, it seems we also have people with other off-the-field specialties that would diversify the classes.  The problem is funding, support, and interest.

Isn't it a little defeatist to not bother at all and let things continue as they are now, with minimal interest in anything to do with A&S?  Wouldn't it be better to at least try to inspire some people to want to start learning something fun that has nothing to do with fighting?  Maybe the current common denominator doesn't really care, but what about the waves of new folk who will be joining over the next decade?

I mean, something's gotta change or we'll keep losing older fighters to the SCA, and Dagorhir will always be looked at as the kid's game with nothing but fighting and frat partying to do during events.  I certainly don't want that.  Do you?

I guess my point is Dag is full of talkers and not a lot of people who are actually doing ****, people come in all the time saying "we need to reform this!" they get their attention cookie and nothing ever happens from it.

So the onus at first in the infancy of any sort of A&S would be to get people to do A&S, funding classes is kind of stupid, make the people taking the class be adults and pay a fee. This is a whole other can of worms however in getting dag kids to spend money.

So where are you gonna find all these skilled and knowledgeable people to teach classes?

I deal in making plate armour but some things craftsmen like to know before hand

what exactly are you looking for?
when do you want it by?
what is your price range?

Another coat of plates this time in a gorgeous midnight blue leather is nearing the riveting phase, this will make 20 now that have come out of the shop.

encouraging the few who do excel is nice but I always find that shunning those who dont and getting them to leave works even better. Dagorhir could use some "bad guys" who most importantly arent worried about losing their "cool kids" card to trim the fat so to speak.

the plates are far too small for a CoP and stupidly thick for one. Go get a 2'x4' of 18ga and come back to talk to me.

Looks like some scrap from some sort of factory, I know I get stainless sheets from a company in buffalo that does stainless countertops and i end up with 2'x3' sheets that always have a corner knocked off and one hole near it.

Other than that it looks like some kind of frankenstein attempt at a Japanese harness.

Go buy actual steel, put holes exactly where you want them so you dont have to worry about random holes.

other than that it should pass but remember this is dag someone will say they can have their finger cut off in the shoulders.

Jace you could be planning a bascinet or learning about how greaves work right now...

Jace please finish your SCA helmet and get it out of my shop. Then stop trying to do stuff for cheapskates, then have a beer and let stuff like this work itself out.

this is only going to end with a 5 hour shop rant between us and you getting no closer to a bascinet or greaves.

Sorry, I was commenting on this:

there has been a horrible tendency for people to show up for a bit and then get busy with homework/work/tests and stop showing up then eventually forget about it.

I apologize for not specifying.
And yes, people do have hobbies. It's just that this one might not be priority for those people who "just forget", and I'm not sure why retention of them is so all-fired important.

there aint a lot of old dagorhirrim, thats an issue.

Not exactly sure how that fits into this conversation, people have successful careers and hobbies at the same time...just not here apparently

I honestly think dag is too "low bidder", those who teach classes are the exception and not the rule, ya either have to be happy with that or leave for better stuff.

The 14th century, the only time where you can be wearing 2 shirts, 3 belts, 3 hats, have your pants tied to your underwear and a 16" dagger right behind your kidney pouch and still feel comfortable and look bad ass...

Welding is the easiest way to achieve deep shapes and single piece helmets (bascinets, sallets, barbutes, etc.) if you dont want to weld then do it how they did back in the day and learn how to raise. Raising is essential skill anyway especially for greaves and vambraces.

a helmet from icefalcon can easily cost more than an entire units wepaons armour and garb...so yeah no need to go that far to appease people that prolly dont know what a bascinet is 

I think you would be hard pressed to find a completely custom built spring steel helmet for 1k, and if you did its gonna be bare bones stuff, Anshelm I think offers them for $800 but thats literally just the freaking bascinet no nothing attached and no visor just a bar grill and its off the shelf (still a good deal).

For a ready to go spring steel bascinet, aventail attached, liner sewn in, buckles and everything you'd be getting a steal at $1500 custom from an American armourer.

I dont like Ice's lines on armour and yes some of his stuff is overpriced but the guy is a stand up businessman and his helmets are stainless and gauranteed for life, plus he will have it to you when he says it will be there.

after the beating I'll be giving hanzo this late-july/august, he'll make me one.

its looking to be an east coast conference sir (Aethelmearc, East, and Atlantia, with Ealdamere) against the world, I dont think you'll be giving me a beating but rather we will be passing out the blows together...I'll be the guy behind you with a pollaxe.

if you've seen a metal helmet that is flimsier than leather I want to see it cause I am pretty sure you saw someone with a tin foil anti-alien hat...

Helmets arent something you should be cheap with, how much do you value your brain?

Well the main motivation here is he is our local Duke and a cool guy, wouldnt have made this for a stranger I can assure you 

I'd easily charge $550 for that CoP and never bat an eye, I gave it as a gift to a guy I thought was worth such a gift, if it bothers you then you must not have been given such largesse before.

Good vegetius reference...

Get a metal helmet, leather aint gonna do much for you.

I'm fairly confident they wont tear off but if they do I can always cut another set out of tougher stuff and sew it to the bottom, not a big job really.

thanks, I am not a leather worker and sitting down and reading on some of the more in depth leather working stuff as far as stitching and finishing was concerned was actually pretty nifty. I also learned that for $22 in red lobster you can basically have slave labor to cut out the strawberry leaves at the bottom.

Maynard does not do dagorhir.

Now do you understand Arrakis?