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Author Topic: Poking, a question of quickness  (Read 13209 times)

Haggis

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #100 on: October 22, 2009, 09:29:02 pm »

Protecting yourself when opponents close in....   You can't protect yourself when your closed on other than franticly swinging your spears shaft around hoping to get lucky and block a few shots.  Other than that, your still attacking until it's too late.


Actually you can also trip, redirect a foe with the spear shaft, short choke, high guard-low thrust, block-side-step-pocket thrust, refused retreat, refused retreat with a thrust....and thats just the stuff that does not include a back up weapon or a grapple.

Edit because the quote got messed up some how.

Are these not attacks of some sort?

No they are all defense moves in the start, and then some are set ups for counter attakcs. They are the same idea as blocking a punch (sword) in a way that sets up an person for a kick (spear). The best defense is the one that then puts you in a position to counter attack.

OK, so "trip, redirect a foe with the spear shaft, short choke, high guard-low thrust, block-side-step-pocket thrust, refused retreat, refused retreat with a thrust...."

Most of those sound very much like attcks to me.  The original thought was "Protecting yourself when opponents close in....  " NONE of what you mentioned are things that you can do against a good opponent.  If you can block a shot, and then stab them... they suck.
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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #101 on: October 22, 2009, 09:40:25 pm »

Protecting yourself when opponents close in....   You can't protect yourself when your closed on other than franticly swinging your spears shaft around hoping to get lucky and block a few shots.  Other than that, your still attacking until it's too late.


Actually you can also trip, redirect a foe with the spear shaft, short choke, high guard-low thrust, block-side-step-pocket thrust, refused retreat, refused retreat with a thrust....and thats just the stuff that does not include a back up weapon or a grapple.

Edit because the quote got messed up some how.

Are these not attacks of some sort?

No they are all defense moves in the start, and then some are set ups for counter attakcs. They are the same idea as blocking a punch (sword) in a way that sets up an person for a kick (spear). The best defense is the one that then puts you in a position to counter attack.

OK, so "trip, redirect a foe with the spear shaft, short choke, high guard-low thrust, block-side-step-pocket thrust, refused retreat, refused retreat with a thrust...."

Most of those sound very much like attcks to me.  The original thought was "Protecting yourself when opponents close in....  " NONE of what you mentioned are things that you can do against a good opponent.  If you can block a shot, and then stab them... they suck.

Wow man total burn. I just can't come back from something like that :) Jesus man if your going to start problem posts for the sake of talking a least make them entertaining. Damn.
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Dudley S. Grimes

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #102 on: October 22, 2009, 09:49:23 pm »
Wow man total burn. I just can't come back from something like that :) Jesus man if your going to start problem posts for the sake of talking a least make them entertaining. Damn.

Book 1: "Canticle"
Prologue
Aballister Bonaduce looked long and hard at the shimmering image in his mirror. Mountains of wind-driven snow and ice lay
endlessly before him, the most forbidding place in all the Realms. All he had to do was step through the mirror, onto the Great
Glacier.
"Are you coming, Druzil?" the wizard said to his bat-winged imp.
Druzil folded his leathery wings around him as if to privately consider the question. "I am not so fond of the cold," he said,
obviously not wanting to partake of this particular hunt. "Nor am I," Aballister said, slipping onto his finger an enchanted ring that
would protect him from the killing cold. "But only on the Great Glacier does the yote grow." Aballister looked back to the scene in
the magical mirror, one final barrier to the completion of his quest and the beginning of his conquests. The snowy region was
quiet now, though dark clouds hung ominously overhead and promised an impending storm that would delay the hunt, perhaps
for many days.
"There we must go," Aballister continued, talking more to himself than to the imp. His voice trailed away as he sank within his
memories, to the turning point in his life more than two years before, in the Time of Troubles. He had been powerful even then,
but directionless.
The avatar of the goddess Talona had shown him the way.
Aballister's grin became an open chuckle as he turned back to regard Druzil, the imp who had delivered to him the method to best
please the Lady of Poison. "Come, dear Druzil," Aballister said. "You brought the recipe for the chaos curse. You must come
along and help to find its last ingredient."
The imp straightened and unfolded his wings at the mention of the chaos curse. This time he offered no arguments. A lazy flap
brought him to Aballister's shoulder and together they walked through the magical mirror and into the blowing wind.
* * * * *
The hunched and hairy creature, resembling a more primitive form of human, grunted and growled and threw its crude spear,
though Aballister and Druzil were surely far out of range. It howled again anyway, triumphantly, as though its throw had served
some symbolic victory, and scooted back to the large gathering of its shaggy white kin.
"I believe they do not wish to bargain," Druzil said, shuffling about from clawed foot to clawed foot on Aballister's shoulder.
The wizard understood his familiar's excitement. Druzil was a creature of the lower planes, a creature of chaos, and he wanted
desperately to see his wizard master deal with the impudent fools-just an added pleasure to this long-awaited, victorious day.
"They are taer," Aballister explained, recognizing the tribe, "crude and fierce. You are quite correct. They'll not bargain."
Aballister's eyes flashed suddenly and Druzil hopped again and clapped his hands together.
"They know not the might before them!" Aballister cried, his voice rising with his ire. All the terrible trials of two long and brutal
years rolled through the wizard's thoughts in the span of a few seconds. A hundred men had died in search of the elusive
ingredients for the chaos curse; a hundred men had given their lives so that Talona would be pleased. Aballister, too, had not
escaped unscathed. Completing the curse had become his obsession, the driving force in his life, and he had aged with every
step, had torn out clumps of his own hair every time the curse seemed to be slipping beyond his reach. Now he was close, so
close that he could see the dark patch of yote just beyond the small ridge that held the taer cave complexes. So close, but these
wretched, idiotic creatures stood in his way.
Aballister's words had stirred the taer. They grumbled and hopped about in the shadow of the jagged mountain, shoving each
other forward as if trying to select a leader to start their charge.
"Do something quickly," Druzil suggested from his perch. Aballister looked up at him and nearly laughed.
"They will attack," Druzil explained, trying to sound unconcerned, "and, worse, this cold stiffens my wings."
Aballister nodded at the imp's rationale. Any delay could cost him, especially if the dark clouds broke into a blinding blizzard, one
that would hide both the yote and the shimmering doorway back to Aballister's comfortable room. He pulled out a tiny ball, a
mixture of bat guano and sulphur, crushed it in his fist, and pointed one finger at the group of taer. His chant echoed off the
mountain face and back across the empty glacier ice, and he smiled, thinking it wonderfully ironic that the stupid taer had no idea
of what he was doing. A moment later, they found out.
Just before his spell discharged, Aballister had a cruel thought and lifted the angle of his pointing finger. The fireball exploded
above the heads of the startled taer, disintegrating the frozen bindings of the ice mountain. Huge blocks rained down, and a
great rush of water swallowed those who had not been crushed. Several of the band floundered about in the ice and liquid
morass, too stunned and overwhelmed to gain then-footing as the pool quickly solidified around them.
One pitiful creature did manage to struggle free, but Druzil hopped off Aballister's shoulder and swooped down upon him. The
imp's claw-tipped tail whipped out as he passed by the stumbling creature, and Aballister applauded heartily.
The taer clutched at its stung shoulder, looked curiously at the departing imp, then fell dead to the ice.
"What of the rest?" Druzil asked, landing back on his perch. Aballister considered the remaining taer, most dead, but some
struggling fertilely against the tightening grip of ice.
"Leave them to their slow deaths," he replied, and he laughed evilly again.
Druzil gave him an incredulous look, "The Lady of Poison would not approve," the imp said, wagging his wicked tail before him
with one hand.
"Very well," Aballister replied, though he realized that Druzil was more interested in pleasing himself than Talona. Still, the
reasoning was sound; poison was always the accepted method for completing Talona's work. "Go and finish the task," Aballister
instructed the imp. "I will get the yote."
A short while later, Aballister plucked the last gray-brown mushroom from its stubborn grasp on the glacier and dropped it into his
bag. He called over to Druzil, who was toying with the last whining taer, snapping his tail back and forth around the terrified
creature's frantically jerking head-the only part of the taer that was free of the ice trap.
"Enough," Aballister said firmly.
Druzil sighed and looked mournfully at the approaching wizard. Aballister's visage did not soften. "Enough," he said again.
Druzil bent over and kissed the taer on the nose. The creature stopped whimpering and looked at him curiously, but Druzil only
shrugged and drove his poison-tipped stinger straight into the taer's weepy eye.
The imp eagerly accepted the offered perch on Aballister's shoulder Aballister let him hold the bag of yote, just to remind the
somewhat distracted imp that more important matters awaited them beyond the shimmering door.



You're mom's a whore
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Judge Dredd

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #103 on: October 22, 2009, 09:57:12 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0IXO2eBPas&feature=related
This is how I see this whole argument. 
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Haggis

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #104 on: October 22, 2009, 10:40:55 pm »
This isn't an argument...   This is an example of people looking at the repercussions of human error and dismissing it as skill on their part.  I am not arguing with anyone, just stating the pros and cons of a certain weapon and watching others give personal accounts of a situation where they have encountered differently.  I think the fallout is that people are looking at it from the perspective of the wielder, and not from a neutral standpoint.  The ones that are have agreed, the ones that are too hung up on their own ego or self righteousness, will not admit the grass is green or the sky is blue if it means being wrong. 
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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #105 on: October 22, 2009, 10:58:47 pm »
This isn't an argument...   This is an example of people looking at the repercussions of human error and dismissing it as skill on their part.  I am not arguing with anyone, just stating the pros and cons of a certain weapon and watching others give personal accounts of a situation where they have encountered differently.  I think the fallout is that people are looking at it from the perspective of the wielder, and not from a neutral standpoint.  The ones that are have agreed, the ones that are too hung up on their own ego or self righteousness, will not admit the grass is green or the sky is blue if it means being wrong.

Taking a page from the Bowie...

Your a tool :)

P.S. Bowie... No Mom's dude. I mean come on man. We must have rules. Dorthy Mantooh was a saint!
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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #106 on: October 22, 2009, 11:12:49 pm »
This isn't an argument...   This is an example of people looking at the repercussions of human error and dismissing it as skill on their part.  I am not arguing with anyone, just stating the pros and cons of a certain weapon and watching others give personal accounts of a situation where they have encountered differently.  I think the fallout is that people are looking at it from the perspective of the wielder, and not from a neutral standpoint.  The ones that are have agreed, the ones that are too hung up on their own ego or self righteousness, will not admit the grass is green or the sky is blue if it means being wrong.

Taking a page from the Bowie...

Your a tool :)

P.S. Bowie... No Mom's dude. I mean come on man. We must have rules. Dorthy Mantooh was a saint!

Eh that was fun, but too harsh. I'm just having fun with ya. You have spirit, I like that.
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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Haggis

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #107 on: October 22, 2009, 11:32:44 pm »
Eh that was fun, but too harsh. I'm just having fun with ya. You have spirit, I like that.

It's fine, I was not offended.  It's common for people that can't support thier arguments with facts to resort to name calling and insults.

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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #108 on: October 22, 2009, 11:41:18 pm »
Eh that was fun, but too harsh. I'm just having fun with ya. You have spirit, I like that.

It's fine, I was not offended.  It's common for people that can't support thier arguments with facts to resort to name calling and insults.

I agree. Thankfully if you really feel this way about spears I know I will be killing you a lot at RAG this year (of course when you are not looking) :)
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stylgar

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #109 on: October 23, 2009, 01:09:00 am »
I believe that what Sheepgut Pudding really means is that he regards any skill he can't master (battlefield awareness, judgment, economy of effort while attaining desired results) as not REAL skillz, and therefore not worth his time.
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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #110 on: October 23, 2009, 01:20:25 am »
I believe that what Sheepgut Pudding really means is that he regards any skill he can't master (battlefield awareness, judgment, economy of effort while attaining desired results) as not REAL skillz, and therefore not worth his time.

As a spear user who plays on the weakness of other people I salute this way of thinking.
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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Olos

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #111 on: October 23, 2009, 01:30:57 am »
I believe that what Sheepgut Pudding really means is that he regards any skill he can't master (battlefield awareness, judgment, economy of effort while attaining desired results) as not REAL skillz, and therefore not worth his time.

It'd be easier to switch your phone to regular ABC typing, write "haggis" once, and then switch it back to T9.  Also, the word would probably then be in your phone's memory and you could type it.  I can't imagine doing the posting you do on a numpad tho...  even with t9...



But no, what he's saying are that those skills are needed to excel in fighting of any sort.  A sword and board fighter would be at quite the disadvantage without the three you mentioned, in particular.  Therefore, those skills aren't specific to the spear, and are factored out of the equation, as that is more of a disparity between different fighters as a whole. 


Yes, there are people on the field that suck with a spear, and there are people that do pretty good with it.  However, even the ones that suck seem to get a decent amount of kills, which you don't see happening with sword and board or red fighters for example.  Hell, he even said at one point that he picks up a spear from time to time, and manages to get a lot of kills with it, without having to work for it.  This seems to me to be anecdotal evidence on the level with most of the other posts in this thread, and it's pretty much what I've experienced personally.
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Kyrax the Hobbled

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #112 on: October 23, 2009, 01:50:30 am »
No Olos, Haggis is arguing that there is no such thing as skill with spear.  We are all well aware that there's an initial easy learning curve with spear to get some kills.  Same as has been said about arching, or blue+board.  The disagreement is that some of us feel that one can improve up from there, something that Haggis vehemently disputes. 


David Bowie – it’s “your mom’s a whore”.  Or are you playing on another's confusion between 'your' and 'you're'?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 01:42:14 pm by Kyrax Nine-Toes »
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Olos

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #113 on: October 23, 2009, 01:55:24 am »
Eh, I guess I'm just reading it differently.
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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #114 on: October 23, 2009, 01:55:30 am »
No Olos, Haggis is arguing that there is no such thing as skill with spear.  We all well aware that there's an initial easy learning curve with spear to get some kills.  Same as has been said about arching, or blue+board.  The disagreement is that some of us feel that one can improve up from there, something that Haggis vehemently disputes. 


David Bowie – it’s “your mom’s a whore”.  Or are you playing on another's confusion between 'your' and 'you're'?

Don't feel bad DB I do that all the time, and I was college edjumacated as an engineer :)

I think the debate as a whole is great. Any one who wants to learn something about one or more complex weapons in game is going to get a lot from this. People who arn't looking for good information will ignore it. Its kind of a win, win in my book.
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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #115 on: October 23, 2009, 01:58:02 am »
The Samsung Alias has no capability for learning, sadly, and I prefer the one-handed T9 to the two-thumb approach.  And he just seemed to have little regard  for those skills, which become all the more crucial with a one-dimensional weapon like a spear. But I look at my fighting like I do my music: how effective can I be for my group with the optimum amount of effort? And, with judgment, both on field and stage, I can do lots of the former with rather little of the latter. A mild case of exercise-induced asthma reminds me on the field.
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Haggis

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #116 on: October 23, 2009, 02:04:47 am »
Good summation Kyrax....  I think at this point, I am about to start arguing it the way Kyrax put it.  Olos got it, and understood completely what I was saying and have to KEEP saying.  However these misquotes and people putting words into my mouth have become almost funny at this point.  Since logic and reason are out....

In case there is any confusion...    Spears have ZERO skill, when you first pick it up, is as good as your ever going to get.  The weapon does all the killing and there is nothing to learn about spear fighting period.  It's a blackhole for fighting talent, and the minute you pick it up, you SUCK as a person, and are doomed to fail at life. 

Haggis
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vote Olos for board moderator, since he is obviously the only one that can read a post and not do it emotionally
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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #117 on: October 23, 2009, 02:07:01 am »
Good summation Kyrax....  I think at this point, I am about to start arguing it the way Kyrax put it.  Olos got it, and understood completely what I was saying and have to KEEP saying.  However these misquotes and people putting words into my mouth have become almost funny at this point.  Since logic and reason are out....

In case there is any confusion...    Spears have ZERO skill, when you first pick it up, is as good as your ever going to get.  The weapon does all the killing and there is nothing to learn about spear fighting period.  It's a blackhole for fighting talent, and the minute you pick it up, you SUCK as a person, and are doomed to fail at life. 

Haggis
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vote Olos for board moderator, since he is obviously the only one that can read a post and not do it emotionally

So I have to ask. What do you fight with?
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Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #118 on: October 23, 2009, 02:15:12 am »
Oh internet, how I love thee.
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Haggis

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #119 on: October 23, 2009, 02:38:04 am »
So I have to ask. What do you fight with?

Whatever will balance the team I am fighting on.  I don't typically take out any certain style and I usually switch up a lot during the day.  In a large battle with lots of projectiles, shield and short (33") blue.  With fewer projectiles, possibly 2 sword.  With only a few projectiles, usually single blue, but I have a small punch shield for arrows I throw behind me when I get into melee range. 
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #120 on: October 23, 2009, 08:02:27 am »

Your putting a lot of words into my mouth here.  Never said that the fighter didnt matter, just that the weapons are in fact harder to get down. 


the weapon itself lends itself to more success, and STILL has a lower skill level required to be successful.



You get stabbed a lot using single, 2 sword, red weapon, but you beat me with shield.

We switch and I parry or jam a lot of your stabs and do really well against your spear, and you never kill me when I have shield. 

What would that prove? That spear is a linear weapon and is easy to predict and no ammount of practice or trianing will change the fact that a spear MUST stab, and stabs are easy to block and jam.  The weapon is HORRIBLE in solo fighst for this reason.  It gets kills because people are A. unaware of the time B. get caught multitasking part of the time, C. trip/fall/ make poor choices when fighting


And that is why it takes skill to use it. If it were a skillless weapon, then it would not be easy to jam or block. and if say you have your shield and I pop that shield up and take a leg, or slide through an opening that you give me and take your arm, then that is skill.

If you have dual blues and I take you out, then obviously my single linear stab is more effective than your lateral evasion, or your blocking and jamming and what not.
Same with red.
But by your statement, if you have 2 blues and I have a spear, and I kill you 3 out of 5 times, you had to be distracted, or fall or make a mistake for me to stab you with a spear

It gets kills because people are A. unaware of the time B. get caught multitasking part of the time, C. trip/fall/ make poor choices when fighting
It was not the simple fact that I can find an opening, feint, draw your block and then take advantage of the opening, and use skill to stab. Nope, you must have tripped in the fight

A spear is only linear when you don't understand how to move to the side.
And yes, it has one linear move, which is why it takes more skill, not less, to use it effectively.  When you are limited in what you can do, you must learn to do that one thing with more skill than anything else.

And yes, the spear is a skilled weapon, and it takes more skill than any other weapon out there.

It does not lend itself to mistakes
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 09:50:54 am by Drunken Bob »
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Arrakis

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #121 on: October 23, 2009, 09:40:56 am »
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2009, 10:09:26 am »
My opinion:

An unskilled spearman (lets refer to spearmen as potential suicide candidates or PSC) are able to kill people in a line fight with relative ease. The PSC will get mulched in the open field and in one on one fights.

In a short period of time the PSC can learn enough skill to:
a) hit what they aim for.
b) pick better targets
c) attack while retreating
Sometimes this knowledge can lead to the PSC having a false sense of their own uberness, as this knowledge will make them effective in the open field. At this point the PSC will avoid shieldmen in the open field and gravitate towards the better shieldmen on their team in order to both stay alive longer, and rack up even more kills, while taking credit for the assist when their teammate kills an opponent that they have distracted. This is the PSC that drives people like Haggis to the edge of insanity, forcing them to make outrageous statements like:
In case there is any confusion...    Spears have ZERO skill, when you first pick it up, is as good as your ever going to get.  The weapon does all the killing and there is nothing to learn about spear fighting period.  It's a blackhole for fighting talent, and the minute you pick it up, you SUCK as a person, and are doomed to fail at life. 
Long after the PSC has honed their skills and shed the illusions of uberness. The PSC graduates to actual uber skilled spearman (lets call them USS for short). The USS will readily admit that it does not take years of training to become a decent PSC. But will vehemently oppose statements like the one above. The USS has a large bag of skills and can beat a great number of fighters one on one. The USS will not even bother to count kills, and will certainly not count the ones Crom and Loki have given them (fighters they kill while not paying attention). To say that the USS is not skilled is crazy talk.

The spear is inherently an effective weapon in a large battle, mediocre in a skirmish, and close to worthless in one on one combat. Therefore when a USS can hold their own 1 on 1, we have to infer that they ARE in fact, SKILLED. 
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2009, 11:30:23 am »

Long after the PSC has honed their skills and shed the illusions of uberness.


I have done neither

And curse you for bringing rationality to this "discussion"
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2009, 12:41:36 pm »
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2009, 01:54:59 pm »
Love your post BlackHawk, but I prefer my terminology:

Guy with a Spear (GwaS) = your Potential Suicide Candidate (PSC)

Spearman (SM) = your Uber Skilled Spearman (USS)

I'd argue that there are intermediate stages between the extremes, but you probably were going for simplicity.  Since we know the only thing simpler than a Black Company petitioner is an Apollyon.   ;)

And in fairness to Haggis, he'd likely argue that all of the battlefield awareness that went into some of that upward transition was due to the same learning things that make any fighter with any weapon combination better. 
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #126 on: October 23, 2009, 02:18:57 pm »
Love your post BlackHawk, but I prefer my terminology:

Guy with a Spear (GwaS) = your Potential Suicide Candidate (PSC)

Spearman (SM) = your Uber Skilled Spearman (USS)

I'd argue that there are intermediate stages between the extremes, but you probably were going for simplicity.  Since we know the only thing simpler than a Black Company petitioner is an Apollyon.   ;)

And in fairness to Haggis, he'd likely argue that all of the battlefield awareness that went into some of that upward transition was due to the same learning things that make any fighter with any weapon combination better.
Yea. I was gonna go with three levels but it got long. And we all know that long posts never get read. I'll say my PSC could graduate to SM then on to USS. Of course we could break SM into many parts but simplicity rules, for the fluffy tail is ever wandering into our line of sight.

Oooo there it goes.......
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #127 on: October 23, 2009, 02:33:24 pm »
Some of what I find interesting in this discussion that’s been touched on but not really developed is how a spear is used in different battlefield situations and scenarios.  Drunken Bob’s soliloquies on solo or unsupported spear fighting are eye-opening to me, as I’ve really never concentrated on that kind of fighting in my twenty years as a spearman.  Like any weapon style or combo, what’s going on in the field and how you interact with other people on your side, those who you can work with temporarily, and your opponents definitely affect how you’re going to use your weapon. 

To me a spear is a support weapon, to be used in conjunction with another fighter or in a group, unit or line.  That is where it is the most effective, and some would argue easiest for anyone to do well with.  But I’ll admit that I’m a unit fighter primarily – chaos battles and pure one-on-one’s have never interested me much.  I knew within weeks of joining Dagorhir that I’d never be the god’s gift to the battlefield and would have hit that elite level of fighter who seem to own in any situation – don’t have the athleticism nor the speed for that.  Tried sword and board for a couple of years and was middling at best with that.  But after blowing out my right shoulder (rotator cuff) I had to switch to two handed weapons – and thus my journey to spearman (and glaive fighter began).  The shoulder is all better now, but for eight years I could easily dislocate it if I tried wielding weapons one-handed.  But that’s another story and I only bring it up to mention why I switched weapons and found a home with the long boys. 

Bridge and other restricted movement scenarios are the battle gods gifts to spearmen (and guys with spears).  By restricting flanking, the spear can be used straight up against foes, poking for holes, opening ones for friends to use, and reaching out and touching folks outside of their range.  And because of limited angles one can be attacked from, you can usually hide behind one or more shields and be protected from arrows and other projectiles that are the bane of spearmen.  Tugig’s Kyrax on the Bridge shows how effective a determined spearman can be in such a scenario.  Of course, having opponents who hold their line without attacking much helps that a lot, as does supportive shieldmen, and a big red buddy who comes in to break down defenses too. 

Castle battles, like Ragnarok’s Osgiliath and Minas Tirith scenarios are spear friendly too for many of the same reasons.  Attacking is harder in those scenarios, as your allies tend to restrict your ability to redirect your weapon in the press, and being in the middle of a shield charge can make you quite ineffective.  Defending on the other hand is much like bridge fighting, the opponent can’t flank, and except for a group shield charge, you’ll likely be able to pick off folks, wounding and killing in safety. 

In the open field or woods, line or unit fighting gives the spearman protection.  If in a shield wall type group or unit, the spear can use those shields for protection and concentrate on the attack.  In more mixed units, the spearman has to pay more attention to being mobile, to avoiding missiles.  The smaller the group, the more agile and defensive the spear has to be. 

In really small group fighting, things boil down much more closely to Drunken Bob’s discussion of one-on-one fighting and I defer to his previous comments on that style. 

Another thing not really touched on is that spears come in all sizes.  Some have argued that a Dagorhir dagger is just a baby spear.  Some like short, agile spears for close-in fighting, though limitations of our rule set make these less effective than they were for the ancient warriors like the Greeks and Romans.  Others, like me, prefer long spears, the better to hit opponents at a distance and keep them more than a few steps from being able to attack.  I prefer a ten footer and would try to build longer spears if I had the right core.  Same goes for glaives, some like Guntar vK like mid-sized ones, while I prefer my 8+ footers.  But that preference has to be tempered by the type of battle, what you’re facing in terms of terrain (bridges, walls, forest or open field), whether there are lots of missiles like at Ragnarok, supported or solo fighting, etc.  Nothing is worse than getting your long spear caught up in the trees or bushes when you’re being attacked, and you can’t bring the spearhead to bear on your attacker.  And a long spear is pretty useless when you’re all alone or have little support. 
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #128 on: October 23, 2009, 03:07:28 pm »
Some of what I find interesting in this discussion that’s been touched on but not really developed is how a spear is used in different battlefield situations and scenarios.  Drunken Bob’s soliloquies on solo or unsupported spear fighting are eye-opening to me, as I’ve really never concentrated on that kind of fighting in my twenty years as a spearman.  Like any weapon style or combo, what’s going on in the field and how you interact with other people on your side, those who you can work with temporarily, and your opponents definitely affect how you’re going to use your weapon. 

Bridge and other restricted movement scenarios are the battle gods gifts to spearmen (and guys with spears).  By restricting flanking, the spear can be used straight up against foes, poking for holes, opening ones for friends to use, and reaching out and touching folks outside of their range.  And because of limited angles one can be attacked from, you can usually hide behind one or more shields and be protected from arrows and other projectiles that are the bane of spearmen.  Tugig’s Kyrax on the Bridge shows how effective a determined spearman can be in such a scenario.  Of course, having opponents who hold their line without attacking much helps that a lot, as does supportive shieldmen, and a big red buddy who comes in to break down defenses too. 

In really small group fighting, things boil down much more closely to Drunken Bob’s discussion of one-on-one fighting and I defer to his previous comments on that style. 


one of the toughest things to solo is a spear, because of its obvious limitations. I prefer to keep my spear at about 6 feet plus the head and pommel, because my arm span is 6 feet (me being 6 feet tall) and i can gather up on it pretty quickly by just stretching my arms out, in case i am charged and what not.

most people think of spears as a support weapon, and i admit in a line fight, anyone can just close their eyes and stab, but when it is a small battle, or 1 on 1 is where the real skill comes from. That and being good with a spear is actually more of an advantage than being good with any other weapon because of that outlook, people don't expect a solo spear, they expect you to have shield friends, and when you show proficiency with a spear, people get confused. there are many spears out there, but only a few actual spear men, and i like to count myself in the spear man ranks (not the best out there, but a pretty good spear man... i do need to work on my spear versus sword and board, but that is for tomorrow, bwa ha ha ha)


Tugig’s Kyrax on the Bridge shows how effective a determined spearman can be in such a scenario. 

Really... again? toot toot

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #129 on: October 23, 2009, 03:13:52 pm »
The fact that this has gone on for a bajillion post is silly.

A spear is just that a spear. You stab with it.

You're either good at it or not.

It gives no super powers. Give any newb you know the best spear you have, and guess what not gunna get as many kills as a vet. Why? Cause it takes skill and experiance to be good with anything. If you use a weapon simply for its ease of use, you never get any better. If you use an uber wep with the intention of being good with it, then ta-da, you've just done what everyone else, with any weapon has ever done.

Haggis is an argumentative tool. Drunken Bob spear is too short (his mail order bride told me so.) Kyrax is old. BHawk cheats and I'm great.
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #130 on: October 23, 2009, 03:38:23 pm »
Why you guys continue to jack off with the inter-net wanna-be ninjas I am packing up to actualy go play Dagorhir. See ya suckers!
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #131 on: October 23, 2009, 03:58:20 pm »
Why you guys continue to jack off with the inter-net wanna-be ninjas I am packing up to actualy go play Dagorhir. See ya suckers!
If you are going to CoK, I'll see you there tomorrow.
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #132 on: October 23, 2009, 04:28:55 pm »
Why you guys continue to jack off with the inter-net wanna-be ninjas I am packing up to actualy go play Dagorhir. See ya suckers!
If you are going to CoK, I'll see you there tomorrow.

Oh yeah we're getting us some CoK this weekend!!
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #133 on: October 23, 2009, 04:48:42 pm »
The spear is inherently an effective weapon in a large battle, mediocre in a skirmish, and close to worthless in one on one combat. Therefore when a USS can hold their own 1 on 1, we have to infer that they ARE in fact, SKILLED.

Thats all I have been saying all along.  I however added in that too many people THINK they fall into this catergory, and usually it's them fighting opponents that are horrible at fighting against spears that gives them this feeling.  You CAN gain skill with a spear, however the BEST spearmen, still get ran over out in the open by most good fighters. 
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #134 on: October 23, 2009, 04:58:40 pm »
The fact that this has gone on for a bajillion post is silly.

A spear is just that a spear. You stab with it.

You're either good at it or not.

It gives no super powers. Give any newb you know the best spear you have, and guess what not gunna get as many kills as a vet. Why? Cause it takes skill and experiance to be good with anything. If you use a weapon simply for its ease of use, you never get any better. If you use an uber wep with the intention of being good with it, then ta-da, you've just done what everyone else, with any weapon has ever done.

Haggis is an argumentative tool. Drunken Bob spear is too short (his mail order bride told me so.) Kyrax is old. BHawk cheats and I'm great.

1. a spear IS just a spear and it only stabs.  Good job

2. I disagree about good with it or not, things can be worked on to get better with spear, most of which are NOT spear specific.

3. a noob will NOT get as many kills as a vet, BUT, they will get more kills than if they picked up any other weapon style, which means....   inherently more pwoerful and easier to be successful with.

4.  I AM and argumentative tool.  No idea about DB, Kyrax IS old, BH DOES cheat ( and isnt that good at it), and you being great.. guess I'll find out around Thanksgiving
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #135 on: October 23, 2009, 05:54:06 pm »
Kyrax is old.

Nice thing to say on my birthday you tool.  So I'm old, so what? I'm still prettier than you are.  Just for that David Bowie, if I kill anyone at Ragnarok, it'll be you, and I'll do it when you're looking...  :P
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #136 on: October 23, 2009, 05:56:27 pm »
Yup. We'll build D-Bob's barrel shield around your wheelie-stool!
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #137 on: October 23, 2009, 05:59:57 pm »
Yup. We'll build D-Bob's barrel shield around your wheelie-stool!

Too late, retired it (and the walker from Rag XXIII), getting around okay without at most a walking stick these days. 
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #138 on: October 23, 2009, 06:04:00 pm »
Kyrax is old.

Nice thing to say on my birthday you tool.  So I'm old, so what? I'm still prettier than you are.  Just for that David Bowie, if I kill anyone at Ragnarok, it'll be you, and I'll do it when you're looking...  :P

Well, given your recent health issues, I'd actually be tickled pink if you get the chance to.(That's to be read as if I'm a nice guy, who's concerned for his fellow man.)

Plus you still owe me a one on one from Rag 21.  8)
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #139 on: October 23, 2009, 06:54:08 pm »
Glad to hear it, man. Looking forward to seeing you up and around like normal.
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #140 on: October 23, 2009, 07:31:58 pm »
try coordinating it with other spearman/archers in the line. if u have someone who is a really good shot near at hand, go number 2 for them, where as if u are the best spearman in the vacinity, have them go 2 for you.

also if the wall is starting to fall apart, or a sheildmen needs cover for some reason or another, switch to 2 and cover them.

essential, as u said, juggling between the 2 styles, is juggleing who the ennemy focuses its attention, hide and reveal yourself as needed to help the team

and when u are going 2, if the other spearman, is on the opposite side of a shild, try to know the shield that way and open them up, this can also help shieldmen get some kills
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #141 on: October 26, 2009, 11:57:04 am »
Spears sure did suck at CoK completely useless people.
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #142 on: October 27, 2009, 12:19:28 am »
Spears sure did suck at CoK completely useless people.

I hear that man I spent the whole weekend getting rocks thrown at me. The event people also made me wear a sign that said "actually has no fighting ability" just to keep my ego in check.
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #143 on: October 27, 2009, 12:22:42 am »
Spears sure did suck at CoK completely useless people.

I hear that man I spent the whole weekend getting rocks thrown at me. The event people also made me wear a sign that said "actually has no fighting ability" just to keep my ego in check.

Yet you still sounded like blackhawk bragging about how awesome you were and how you could kill everyone with both eyes closed.
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #144 on: October 27, 2009, 06:09:05 pm »
Spears sure did suck at CoK completely useless people.

I hear that man I spent the whole weekend getting rocks thrown at me. The event people also made me wear a sign that said "actually has no fighting ability" just to keep my ego in check.

Yet you still sounded like blackhawk bragging about how awesome you were and how you could kill everyone with both eyes closed.

Was it, "I could kill everyone, with both eyes closed" or was it "I could kill everyone with both eyes closed" ? Because hell, even I could kill everyone if they had both eyes closed.
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #145 on: October 27, 2009, 08:30:58 pm »
Found this very helpful post from Haggis in the Weapons forum and thought it belonged here...
How to get good at polearm...

1. learn to fight as a lefty pole guy

2. understand the importance of fakes and how to redirect your attacks.

3. footwork and shot placement are more important than any other style except single sword.

4. Use the weapon for what it is intended for.  i.e. If you build a light pole, use finesse and fast shots.  If you have a heavy pole, use it to move people and cause fear.  You can kill more people with fear than you will with the tip.

5. Use your teammates and use them well.  A strong shieldman and a polearm can kill tons if the shieldman lets the pole do the work and the shield stops the rushers. Plus the shieldman can keep projectiles off your polearm.

6.  Dont throw low shots unless they are unaware of your pressence.  It's easy to block a pole low and run it down.  Dont be that guy.

7. People get uncomfortable when you move them against their will, do this often.  they usually do stupid stuff like rush prematurely.

8. Learn "C" shots, which are small chops and attacks that circle around and attack onother spot than what is thought.  Common example is a fake to the leg, and circling around and hitting the shoulder when they drop their defense to block the leg shot.

9. Usually attacking weapons is bad, and does nothing, however, if you can chop the crap out of a sword amd force his to drop it do so.  This works extremely well when you fight left handed, as you can chop striaght down the inside of the arm, if you get the arm cool, if you dont, but they drop the sword, also cool.

10. Be fluid, don't commit to a static area or defensive position unless you have to.  Poles are better on the move and a pole that picks up and slides further down to a side of a shield wall does more than relocation.  It lets others that DID know he was there know that there will be added pressure wherever he goes.  This can sometimes be used to pull defenses away from the center if your shield wall is weaker than your opponents, as noone wants an unanswered paolearm smashing their teammates while they try to eek out a small advantage in the middle, it's creates a race for advantages, and good fighters and tacticians try to avoid those.

Hope this stuff helps.
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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #146 on: October 30, 2009, 09:28:46 pm »
Wow so I'm like some mythical beast then.. ok

here is spear man style #3

Line battle: standing 1-2 feet in front of a line cleanly hitting 95% of anything they shoot, thats not a fake, on garb or armor as fast as any "jackhammer" but will full intention and accuracy.

The only people that should worry about getting hit by this man is anyone 8ft away from him in any direction.

anyone that rushes him can not move as fast forwards as he can backwards into he safety of his line, that then chews the attacker up.

Arrows get lucky but loose a lot from just having a forearm buckler

1 on 1 against

Spears: the style mixes between forceful blocking, that adjusts shots of his attacker to just miss his body and returning fire with blazing speed and the same deadly accuracy

Shields with no helmet: Rock

Shield man rushing with helmet: blocking backpedaling shooting for the foot under the shield just as it gets lifted from the ground

Shields with helmet: fake jackhammer style at the ankle then the upper shield side shoulder to the weapon side elbow in less than a second.
or
weapon side forearm to shield side ribs or thigh, faster than he can pull his shield back to block both

Dual blue or red: HaH don't bother

Best against in order: Reds, dual blue, spear man #1 and #2, Shield man,
Weaknesses: archers, Rules of Dagorhir  :-[

Don't belive me, fight me.

Haggis I'm sorry you haven't had the opportunity to fight spearmen who fight against good fighters on a regular basis (Dragoons)

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Arrakis

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #147 on: October 30, 2009, 10:40:46 pm »
Shield man rushing with helmet: blocking backpedaling shooting for the foot under the shield just as it gets lifted from the ground

Lie to me and tell me you've EVER gotten that to work.

Sir Kaigar Vegulfr Loðbroksonr

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #148 on: October 30, 2009, 10:47:38 pm »
Arrakis, I can vouche for Fury on everything he said in his post. He's easily one of the top 10 spearmen I've ever met. And yes, he actually gets that shot on rushing shieldmen quite often. And because I'm sure someone will say "They must all be nooblets then", I'd like to point out that I've been fighting for about 3 years here and 3 years in the SCA prior to Dag, and he's gotten me a number of times. He's also got it on several of the more prominent members of the Dragoons.

Finding a spearman as good as Fury is rare, but they are out there.
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Blackhawk The Apollyon

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Re: Poking, a question of quickness
« Reply #149 on: October 30, 2009, 11:07:46 pm »
Need help getting your foot out of your mouth Arrakis?
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