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[Frothgar]

Had an idea brewing on the back burner for a while. To make a short document on what is and is not passing garb. the old pictures in the hand book need an update. I will take many pictures of live fighters in garb to convey the point and to put a bit of a human face on it.

To that end im looking for opinions. What, in your opinion, are the standards for beginner, veteran, and spud (unnaceptable) garb? the rules are spelled out well in the handbook, but im looking for a personal perspective.

heres a link to the handbook, the stuff on costuming starts on page 15.

http://www.dagorhir.com/dagorhir/Dagorhir%20Handbook%202003%20Edition.pdf

Thanks in Advance,

Frothgar

Edit:

Anyone who wants to submit pictures for this project please use the following guidelines.

Dagorhir Garb Standards project picture requirements

Each picture submitted should:
-   Show one person from head to toe.
-   Include a description of the garb components.
-   Include name of the contributor
-   Include name of the garb category shown
-   Have any armour, shield or weapons placed near the subject, in frame but not covering up garb.
-Verticaly oriented, NOT landscaped.

[Izad]

Hey Frothgar,  This is Izad of Maethodoron. hows it rollin? Just to put this in here for you, i dont know what you would consider it, but my very first National event was Badon Hill I or II. But for that event, the only garb i had, fighting and dress, was a pair of sweat pants that i cut up a little and a shirt with the buttons taken out and replaced with string. For my footwear, i only had 1 pair of moccasins. That is it. And it sucked. But thats all i had. Hope this helps.

[Alric]

Things that make me think spud:

-Tshirt under a tabard, instead of a tunic.
-Sports bras instead of tunics.
-Soccer shorts or cargo pants (with those obvious pockets) instead of garb pants.
-Obviously modern shoes (nikes, white or colorful sneakers).
-White socks that aren't covered by pants or boots.
-Sunglasses and obviously modern bandanas (that look like they're out of Huck Finn).

What I like to see from a newbie:

-Attempt at a t-tunic (can be unhemmed, or even just a sheet with a hole in it, held together by a belt). There can be a tshirt hiding under it, but there's obviously an attempt at a tunic over top of the tshirt.
-Sweat pants, pajama pants, or some other attempt at pants that are non-descript.
-A belt.
-Shoes that aren't nikes or bright colors. Preferably black or brown sneakers, or sandals.

The minimum I expect of a veteran:

-No visible tshirts, underarmor, or sports bras.
-A tunic that is hemmed, or a really nice medieval shirt.
-Pants that don't stand out, preferably better than scrubs or sweat pants.
-Shoes that don't stand out from 10' as being modern. Either non-descript earth tones or something period (whether medieval or fantasy).

(Edit: notice how little I expect of a veteran... I am not a garb Nazi! )

[Sir Magnus of Narnia]

The only problem I have with the listed description is the "first-timer" garb. That picture pretty much sums up the majority of Dagorhir costuming at most events (vets included). In my opinion it is better listed as "starter garb". The spud picture is funny, but is pretty much the same as "first-timer" garb only the guy is fat and ugly.

[Ilsa Starling]

I don't want to derail this thread, because I feel it could be a really valuable discussion. That bein' said, the only caveat I'd add to Alric's lists is that just because it's homemade-- even if it's homemade well-- it's not necessarily garb. Got this excuse a few times at the garb gates this Rag, and it boggled me. A tanktop or sports-jersey style shirt that you've made yourself is just as blatantly non-medieval as its store-bought counterpart.

Hope that wasn't too soapbox-y or random. If it was, please discount my silliness and carry on-- I'd love to see something come of this conversation.

[Siguric]

-Sunglasses and obviously modern bandanas (that look like they're out of Huck Finn).

Hey! I still wear one of those. I have to have something covering my head, and I'm yet to make a 6-panel hat. (The sunglasses are a whole different discussion, which we've had already.)

My pants at the moment could use work. I wear a pair of black Dickies (which are the only pants I wear mundanely anyway), but my tunic/vest covers the pockets.

(Edit: notice how little I expect of a veteran... I am not a garb Nazi! )

Lies! 

[Judge Dredd]

I wonder if there is someone out there who epitomizes minimum garb.
*ponders*

[Olos]

I like Alric's list.  I wear pretty much exactly Alric's min vet garb, heh.  Though I am looking at improving in the near future.

I'd like to see an "ideal" set list, but it's probably just "believably real".  A picture of Alric or one of the good-garb-guys along with a description of the clothes he is wearing and why he's wearing each peice would help.

And remember folks, stick jocks should look good too!  Good garb is part of the dagorhir uniform.

[Sir Mirelle of Narnia]

Can we please do male AND female pictures this time as well.

[Stellaria]

YES. Women in booty shorts and a sports bra with a few pieces of fur thrown on are just as spudly as fat-guy in a t-shirt and janky tabard. Or Sally in moose-print Jammie pants.

Suguric - 18" square piece of fabric of your choice = bandana without an obviously modern print. No excuses there, buddy!

[Arrakis]

Personally, I'd like to see Vet-level Historical and Vet-level Fantastical as well as Vet-level Stickjock garb, but I doubt that the Dagorhirrim on the boards would care very much for that last one.

Really, the standards I have are that whatever route you pick, you make it look fly.  If you wanna party like it's 687 AD, power to you, as long as you make it look as good as Alric or somebody does.  If you wanna rock a Landesknechten dwarf or something, again, rock on, just so long as it looks good.  And if you wanna wear a blue underarmor shirt and blue hakama with your full suit of heavily-tooled black leather armor, an embroidered and appliqued tabard, a blue bandana, and sunglasses, as long as it looks hot, I'm okay with it. 

But like I said, I think most of you would frown on that last guy, no matter how LARP-pimpin' he might look.

[Kaonna McAvoy]

And if you wanna wear a blue underarmor shirt and blue hakama with your full suit of heavily-tooled black leather armor, an embroidered and appliqued tabard, a blue bandana, and sunglasses, as long as it looks hot, I'm okay with it. 

But like I said, I think most of you would frown on that last guy, no matter how LARP-pimpin' he might look.

I think this looks awesome and it does not detract from my experience at all. So long as the underarmor is mostly covered by armor and garb, I dont care if a bit pokes out at the armpit or something. If I'm so close that I can tell someones wearing underarmor beneath all of that, I should be concentrating on killing him/her instead of worrying about their fashion choices anyway. I hardly ever notice sunglasses or bandannas.

That being said I also think the people who go full out fantasy and historical garbed look cool to.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

Yes Arrakis, we don't need that last guy (underarmor without a tunic and sunglasses), or at least it is NOT an example of veteran garb as much as it is a bare minimum at best.  But I've got no problem with that same person in a basic tunic and sans modern eyewear as an example of what a stick-jock could aspire to.  As a person said to me long, long ago when I started, armor doth not make a costume.

And Kaonna - just saw your post while writing mine.  The problem with Sir UnderArmor is that it isn't covered, except maybe on the torso.  With a tabard the sides may be exposed as are the obviously mundane short or long sleeves of shiny spandex.   

The rest of Arrakis' spiel I agree with - make it look good.  And for Stellaria and Mirelle, yes to showing options for males and females (biological or character choice), and heck-yes to using this as a way to focus on the garb and accoutrements instead of making fun of the person's appearance, weight, pimples or whatever. 

The joy of the net is that we can post a slew of good and bad examples with only a little effort.  And by giving a range of historical and fantasy options, we can show newcomers not only what they need to do to meet our standards but also where they can then take that with a little effort.  We'd also be showing the wide variety of choices one can make.  The new person can feel overwhelmed at the prospect of trying to keep up to Alric or Oisin's garb. But if we show that they just have to meet the minimums of tunic, thrift store belt and non-mundane looking pants with neutral tones shoes, then tweak that with a period head cover, or add trim to the tunic or a tabard, then they may feel like they can join in more easily.  Event by event they'll improve as they have more ideas and more time and money to add to their wardrobe, armor and so on.

[Alric]

I really liked Gylkryst's garb evolution thread he posted a few months ago. A few such chronicles of how a few of us with better garb got to where we are might be useful. I'd be willing to put together a chronology of my stuff, showing how I got to my current garb from a t-tunic and blue jeans.

***

Also, how about weapons? Is there such a thing as a spud sword (say, with a ratty sock cover, an duct tape all over the place)? Or is encouraging not-ugly weapons not on the same level as encouraging garb?

[Dudley S. Grimes]

The rest of Arrakis' spiel I agree with - make it look good.  And for Stellaria and Mirelle, yes to showing options for males and females (biological or character choice

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

Also, how about weapons? Is there such a thing as a spud sword (say, with a ratty sock cover, an duct tape all over the place)? Or is encouraging not-ugly weapons not on the same level as encouraging garb?

Not on the same level, but it would be a good idea to have a separate page or photo album on how to improve your marginal appearing weapons.  This might be a good topic for the weapons forum...

And Dudley - I was thinking more of Dominic Stoneskull, but that'd apply to you too. 

[Halbrust]

just because it's homemade-- even if it's homemade well-- it's not necessarily garb. Got this excuse a few times at the garb gates this Rag, and it boggled me. A tanktop or sports-jersey style shirt that you've made yourself is just as blatantly non-medieval as its store-bought counterpart.

I'd be interested in seeing a few pictures of this.

I'm not doubting your opinion, but I also think that homemade does equal quasi-period. Of course there's a limit! But if using periodesque materials and periodesque techniques it seems hard to not sreate a periodesque piece of clothing.

[Sir Mirelle of Narnia]

just because it's homemade-- even if it's homemade well-- it's not necessarily garb. Got this excuse a few times at the garb gates this Rag, and it boggled me. A tanktop or sports-jersey style shirt that you've made yourself is just as blatantly non-medieval as its store-bought counterpart.

I'd be interested in seeing a few pictures of this.

I'm not doubting your opinion, but I also think that homemade does equal quasi-period. Of course there's a limit! But if using periodesque materials and periodesque techniques it seems hard to not sreate a periodesque piece of clothing.

Home made as.

"I hand sewed this hoodie, it should be okay."

"I totaly made this fighting jersy with my own hands, it should be period"

[Stellaria]

If you'll be doing pictures at an event I'm at, let me know. I have very simple beginner garb pieces that I can show for women, along with the more complex and historical. My last dress I made is all wool with zero visible handstitching. But I also have girly t-tunics and that sort of thing.

[Kaonna McAvoy]

And Kaonna - just saw your post while writing mine.  The problem with Sir UnderArmor is that it isn't covered, except maybe on the torso.  With a tabard the sides may be exposed as are the obviously mundane short or long sleeves of shiny spandex.   

My apologies, when I saw full suit in the post I thought that meant something that covers most of the ribs/torso, arms, and legs.

[Alric]

just because it's homemade-- even if it's homemade well-- it's not necessarily garb. Got this excuse a few times at the garb gates this Rag, and it boggled me. A tanktop or sports-jersey style shirt that you've made yourself is just as blatantly non-medieval as its store-bought counterpart.

I'd be interested in seeing a few pictures of this.

I'm not doubting your opinion, but I also think that homemade does equal quasi-period. Of course there's a limit! But if using periodesque materials and periodesque techniques it seems hard to not sreate a periodesque piece of clothing.

I have seen homemade tank tops. It was a really good sewing job... but it wasn't garb.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

And Kaonna - just saw your post while writing mine.  The problem with Sir UnderArmor is that it isn't covered, except maybe on the torso.  With a tabard the sides may be exposed as are the obviously mundane short or long sleeves of shiny spandex. 

My apologies, when I saw full suit in the post I thought that meant something that covers most of the ribs/torso, arms, and legs.

In fairness, at first I missed the bit about the tabard and thought Arrakis meant someone who was wearing armor to partly or mostly cover mundane clothes (which is often the case with UA).  Heck, I wear UnderArmor sometimes, but under a tunic and tabard.  So the issue really isn't the mundanity as much as its visibility - not really visible, then it's okay.  Which is what I assume you meant. 

[Kaonna McAvoy]

Got it in one sir.

[Judge Dredd]

I really don't give a crap what you wear under your garb as long as I cant see it. The need for some to show their mundane underwear still baffles me.

[Stellaria]

lol - well said!

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

Got it in one sir.

Sir, whose this "Sir" you speak of.  It's "Sergeant Kyrax" and I work for a living... or at least I kill for that living. 

Carry on Dragon Keeper and smite those flaunters of mundanity. 

[puria.bestia]

As a person said to me long, long ago when I started, armor doth not make a costume.

I disagree with this.
I don't wear armor often, however when I do, I consider it part of my garb.

[Alric]

Kyrax didn't say that armor can't be a part of your garb. The issue here is when people wear armor and assume that the armor is sufficient without other medieval clothing (like people wearing armor over a muscle shirt and scrub pants).

[Dreadge]

Every Event i go to I have a Box of Loaner Garb. It is ratty T-tunics, Sweat pants, and shoe covers (and misc other stuff). Anyone new i bring out Looks like they have been to a battle or 2 before. I spend more time on my armor then I do On my garb however There is garb on under the armor. I used to wear moccasins, But after my leg issues I switched to a pair of black combat boots because i needed the ankle support. Now My Garb and Armor are not the best I have seen, however Compared to some people i've seen and other games I have been too. It's vet level even with the new boots.

But you see I am basing it off others i see around me not so much a set criteria.

My other note would be 7 out of 10 people who don't RP their character Don't spend time on garb. My observation, If You think that estimation is high I'm willing to discuss the issue.

[Kensman Ilariia]

I have some garb evolution photos for both myself and Vladimir.  They also range between historical, fantasy, and stick jock.  Let me know if you want them.

[puria.bestia]

Kyrax didn't say that armor can't be a part of your garb. The issue here is when people wear armor and assume that the armor is sufficient without other medieval clothing (like people wearing armor over a muscle shirt and scrub pants).

If they're wearing something that isn't too noticeable, I don't see a problem.
I wear either a black sleeveless UA shirt, or a black wife beater under my torso armor because I don't feel that it is too noticeable.
Then again my pants are up to par.

Edit: I don't wear armor often. Most of the time I just fight shirtless.

[hivemind]

I wear either a black sleeveless UA shirt, or a black wife beater under my torso armor because I don't feel that it is too noticeable.

If you're talking about that picture of yourself you just posted in the "pics of your armor" thread, dude, you're a spud in a tank top there. I'm sorry if no one else is telling you this, but you look like crap with that wifebeater on. Lose it for a linen tunic or something...

[puria.bestia]

I wear either a black sleeveless UA shirt, or a black wife beater under my torso armor because I don't feel that it is too noticeable.

If you're talking about that picture of yourself you just posted in the "pics of your armor" thread, dude, you're a spud in a tank top there. I'm sorry if no one else is telling you this, but you look like crap with that wifebeater on. Lose it for a linen tunic or something...

I'm sorry I don't fit your definition of looking good by wearing a linen tunic.
The only place where you can see my shirt is the gaps where my armor is tied, and a bit on my chest. That's not a lot imo.

[hivemind]

I can see it. It is 100% obvious you're wearing a tank top.

That makes you a spud.

You don't have to have a linen tunic, that was just a suggestion that would be quick and easy to do. But something that's not a mundane tank top for sure.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

I can see it. It is 100% obvious you're wearing a tank top.

That makes you a spud.

You don't have to have a linen tunic, that was just a suggestion that would be quick and easy to do. But something that's not a mundane tank top for sure.

He's absolutely right.  It looks like crap.  It's a black beater under minimalistic "armour", and quite obviously just mundane clothing, and quite obviously saying "I don't give a crap about my clothes, because I think I'm pretty so I don't have to follow these stupid garb rules."

Armour is armour.  Garb is garb.  Garb is not armour, and armour is not garb.  If you aren't wearing garb, you're breaking the rules.  Live with it.

[Sir Magnus of Narnia]

I can see it. It is 100% obvious you're wearing a tank top.

That makes you a spud.

You don't have to have a linen tunic, that was just a suggestion that would be quick and easy to do. But something that's not a mundane tank top for sure.

He's absolutely right.  It looks like crap.  It's a black beater under minimalistic "armour", and quite obviously just mundane clothing, and quite obviously saying "I don't give a crap about my clothes, because I think I'm pretty so I don't have to follow these stupid garb rules."

Armour is armour.  Garb is garb.  Garb is not armour, and armour is not garb.  If you aren't wearing garb, you're breaking the rules.  Live with it.

I 100% agree. I mean look at me. Total stud, hot body, great hair, ripped, awesome fighter, and even I take time to wear garb. Pretty is no excuse to not wear garb, I am if nothing else a perfect example.

[Maeo Wilhelm]

I can see it. It is 100% obvious you're wearing a tank top.

That makes you a spud.

You don't have to have a linen tunic, that was just a suggestion that would be quick and easy to do. But something that's not a mundane tank top for sure.

He's absolutely right.  It looks like crap.  It's a black beater under minimalistic "armour", and quite obviously just mundane clothing, and quite obviously saying "I don't give a crap about my clothes, because I think I'm pretty so I don't have to follow these stupid garb rules."

Armour is armour.  Garb is garb.  Garb is not armour, and armour is not garb.  If you aren't wearing garb, you're breaking the rules.  Live with it.

I don't get it. If I was on the field and I saw that I wouldn't notice. I don't notice "bad" garb when I am fighting. I am way too consumed with actually fighting than bitching about what other people wear on the field. Complaining about how people don't look as "medieval" as you (and I'm using "you" to represent the whole non-stick jock crowd) is the equivalent of me complaining that you don't fight as well as me. Wait...I do that nevermind carry on.

[hivemind]

Except that not looking like a spud is part of the rules. Fighting well isn't.

[Frothgar]

Focus guys,
things like Alric's list are very helpful, the rants not so much.

Ilairiia,
i was thinkng about doing this more inhouse with my realm, but now that i think about it it would be a good idea to get a cross section of dagorhir in on this. so you can either post the pics here or send them to me. my contact info is on the rogin website. theres a link in my sig.

Stellaria, i have no idea when im going to be able to get back out to a major event. but if yould like you can take some pictures with your crew (i am a big fan of Warband Garb).

The same goes for all of you. feel free to provide some pictures. ill try to get a wish list set up.

might be fun to see veterans recreate spud garb.

Frothgar

[Arrakis]

Puria.bestia does not look like a spud.  Puria-bestia looks like a stickjock.  And that's fine.

[Dudley S. Grimes]

Not really.


I don't care if Dan Marino looks like a football player, even if he isn't dressed like one.


I personally hate garb, it's lame, stupid, and not necasary. But, there are minimums, fun foam armor and a wife beater are not even close to the minimums.

Hell, I've been at this for a few years now, and don't have great garb, just the minimum. If only to keep people from trying to interact with me. The less I have to actually speak to any of you IRL the better my time is.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

Focus guys,
things like Alric's list are very helpful, the rants not so much.

Yes, let's focus on the point, which is to provide pictures of what is acceptable and veteran levels of garb, giving newer folks ideas about what they need to aspire to.  Leading by example rather than by criticism. 

A side area, showing what isn't acceptable is okay, but the focus should be on the positive rather than the negative.  Though I'll admit to liking the idea of a "close by no cigar" set to point out common mistakes, like visible tank tops or UA, or good upper body garb detracted from by cargo pants or visible knee pads, etc.  But let's work on the constructive and instructive side of things first. 

Besides, I’ve got a new chapter just beginning to work on their garb and anything along these lines would help a huge amount. 

[Sir Magnus of Narnia]

Take away the garb, fantasy, and medieval and Dagorhir would be dead in five years. Trust me very few people join this sort of hobby to watch guy/girls in street clothes masterbate about how awesome they are with pool noodle swords

However the guy in question, in my opinion does not look like a spud. Looks a bit anime for my taste, but it ain't going to ruin my day on the field. I would rather focus on the people in total street clothes (including women who think hot topic is a garb store).

And in case I missed any one I'll just put out some general screaming and generic hate......grrrrrrr you suck.

[Judge Dredd]

Just went to look at the pics. I wouldn't say Puria's garb is good, but he doesn't set off my "NO" meter either. It's total LARP armor and a wife beater, but it wont be ruining the pictures for anyone if he is in frame either. It would be nice if the under shirt were more garb like but I wouldn't kick him off the field.

[Alric]

Hell, I've been at this for a few years now, and don't have great garb, just the minimum.

I really respect Wolfpack for this. A bunch of stick jocks, but with real garb.

I look at it this way. The characterization guys don't demand that everyone roleplay when they play Dagorhir. Just that people wear minimum garb (meet the basic standards in the MoA). The stick jocks don't demand that everyone fight as well as they do. Just that their weapons pass weapon check (meet the basic standards in the MoA).

...but I wouldn't kick him off the field.

Note: Blackhawk didn't make it through my garb gate at Rag 23, because he was trying to wear a tshirt onto the field. One of, like, 6 people I turned away .

[Askarus Space Beard]

Alric, i want one of those hats you were wearing today, totally pimp. Got a pattern? or want to make one?

[Alric]

Sent you an IM.

[puria.bestia]

My opinion is that if its not noticeable in combat, then it shouldn't matter.

[Judge Dredd]

My opinion is that if its not noticeable in combat, then it shouldn't matter.

That's probably why no one wants our opinion regarding garb.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

My opinion is that if its not noticeable in combat, then it shouldn't matter.

That's probably why no one wants your opinion regarding garb.

FIFY.

Most of us have at least a smidgeon of respect for your opinion, BH . . . you're just so old we think there might be a bit of wisdom hidden away in there somewhere.