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[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

I have seen thread after thread on here about people who have someone in their unit who refuses to follow in the timeworn footsteps of those that have gone before, and refuse to make a basic weapon following a tutorial for their first.

I'm now having that same problem, except twofold.

There are two brothers in our unit who decided to make their first weapons according to an idea they had. Their weapons were constructed and brought to practice before I even knew of their intent, or I would have tried to stop them. As it is, they came to practice with two blue clubs with stabby tips with a construction method that I had seen as an amalgam of things heavily warned against on the boards.

They both have accounts on the boards, so I fail to see how they couldn't have noticed that it was a bad idea, but that point is moot.

Their swords consist of a PC pipe 3/4" run through the center of a hollow round pool noodle, then wrapped with a layer of foam. I'm not sure on the type of foam, but regardless. Their stabby tips consist of a kitchen sponge thrust into the top and wrapped in duct tape to secure it.

Now, not only do these weapons hurt, but they require repairs after 20minutes of light single combat. Whenever I attempt to convince them that they could do better making swords in the time honored method, they brush me off and continue repairs, claiming that whatever they do to them this time will fix the problem. Their latest solution was to cut slits down the length of the pool noodle to allow for flex.

My problem: We have no easily accessible older realms or events to take the weapons to to show them how badly they fail, and I need to know the best way to convince them that their way does not work.

[Atalan]

Fail the weapons if they're not safe? I mean that's how unsafe weapons are supposed to be kept off the field.

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

We have such an informal structure at this point, if I tried to fail their weapons I'd just be argued down. As it is, I've been trying to tell them that anywhere else, they would not be allowed to use them.

And my main concern isn't keeping them off the field, but scrapping them entirely and making them get new weapons, because my advising isn't working.

[Casimir Glassjaw]

Keeping them off the field would lead to them being scrapped.  I don't understand how it is so hard to tell someone their weapon is not safe.  Run a hit test for them, if they fail, they fail.

[Garret Ironshield]

Issue a challenge:

1. Throw a basic blue tutorial at them.
2. Give five bucks to them if they make a safe weapon.
3. Compare their crap weapon and the new one. Hopefully, they will see their crap weapon is crap.

Optional Replacement for Step 3: When They are off making the new weapon, burn the old one.

Optional step 4: Stab them in the balls with their own weapon. They will stop.

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

Casimir. I must have forgotten to say that I tried that.
Hitting themwith their own weapon has led to them telling us others to man up, take the pain etc. either that or they won't hit as hard.

Next practice I think I will just refuse to fight them.

[Casimir Glassjaw]

You are not supposed to have the make of the weapon taking or giving the hit in the hit test, most likely exactly for that reason.
You not fighting is just going to prove that you are a passive aggressive baby, it isn't going to get their weapons off of the field.

[Leohan]

2 questions. How does many people are there in your unit?
and how does everyone else feel about these weapons?

[Spiderling]

A group with "an informal structure" is inevitably, in the long run, a group run by whoever shouts the loudest.  You (or whoever's nominally in charge of the unit) need to make it explicitly clear what the rules are, why they're in place, and why their non-rules-compliant failsticks will no longer be allowed on the field.  Just giving them "advice" isn't going to do a thing if they still have free range to run roughshod over the game rules.

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

You are not supposed to have the make of the weapon taking or giving the hit in the hit test, most likely exactly for that reason.
You not fighting is just going to prove that you are a passive aggressive baby, it isn't going to get their weapons off of the field.

Thank you Casimir, that was helpful and yet couched in the most hostile terms yet, and my not fighting may prove that, but I don't really care, as long as I'm not getting hit with that weapon.

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

Spiderling, that was a good thought, and probably what I will do.

Leohan: 5-10 depending on the day.
Some of them don't care, but others are leery of getting hit with the weapon, but too soft spoken to do much.

[Leohan]

Is the kitchen sponge the only thing on the tip of the core? coz that sounds extremely dangerous.

[Kaelivrin Sarnor-Velve]

My probably useless suggestion, a variant of Garrets no.1 and 2.

Make them two blueswords, and tell them to use those at that meeting instead of their ill-made clubs. Then charge them 5$ if they want them and dispose of the clubs.

[Casimir Glassjaw]

Making them weapons will solve nothing.  Put your foot down and man up.  You can't just passively wait for them to stop, do something about it.

[Garret Ironshield]

Step 4: Stab them in the balls with their own weapon. They will stop.

[Kaelivrin Sarnor-Velve]

Step 4: Stab them in the balls with their own weapon. They will stop.

Violence solves all in Dagorhir.

[Dragonwalker]

Screw stabbing them the junk. J-hook those little punks in the junk, and let them see what pool noodle does to their nonexistent future kids. THEN stab them in their now broken and splattered unmentionables.


And you can quote me on that.


Bryn, buddy, Cas is right. Hit test, fail if unsafe. Don't hit test on them, and definitely don't let them muscle you around. That is unsafe conduct, and if they want to push the issue, slam them with the rulebook AND their crappy unsafe weapons.

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

Is the kitchen sponge the only thing on the tip of the core? coz that sounds extremely dangerous.

Compressed kitchen sponge with a layer of foam over it and a layer of duct tape over that.
I agree, it is dangerous.

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

Next time we have a practice I plan to not let them or anyone else fight using their weapons and tell them exactly why.

Failing that, hit test to prove the problem.

Failing that, borrow the weapon and stab them in the crotch.

[Casimir Glassjaw]

That is unsafe conduct, and if they want to push the issue, slam them with the rulebook AND their crappy unsafe weapons.

But the rulebook is only for Rag.

[Garret Ironshield]

Step 4: Stab them in the balls with their own weapon. They will stop.

Violence solves all in Dagorhir.

Yep. Cuz when it comes to protecting future offspring, people get serious.

[Arrakis]

"Look guys, I just hit checked your stuff.  It super fails.  You can't fight with it."

"Excuses, insults about how you're weak."

"Look, it hits signficantly worse than an Eryndor blue, the standard for 'passing' weapons.  Therefore, it fails."


Also, spend some time at home working on putting your hips into your sohts and getting your shot strength up so that, if you need to, you can bruise the **** out of them with their clubs.  I bet I could leave them lookin' like tigers with what you've described.

[Kaelivrin Sarnor-Velve]

Step 4: Stab them in the balls with their own weapon. They will stop.

Violence solves all in Dagorhir.

Yep. Cuz when it comes to protecting future offspring, people get serious.

It helps to wear a cup too. Spears to the balls are not fun, eh?

[Wraithe]

bring some lighter fluid and a lighter and when they are not looking light them on fire similar to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzQUQ8tNb5Y

Or take their weapons deem them illegal and when they enter the field demand they give you the weapon or take it from them and dispose of it.  Or ban them from the field.  Or change practice times and dont inform them, players like that are not needed in dag.  good luck

[hivemind]

Also, spend some time at home working on putting your hips into your sohts and getting your shot strength up so that, if you need to, you can bruise the **** out of them with their clubs.  I bet I could leave them lookin' like tigers with what you've described.

Probably the best answer - but honestly, the fact that you're having this problem at all means that you probably don't have the stones to deal with it to begin with.

Either man up, or deal. Might you lose some players? Yes. Did you want them, if they act like this? No.

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

Also, spend some time at home working on putting your hips into your sohts and getting your shot strength up so that, if you need to, you can bruise the **** out of them with their clubs.  I bet I could leave them lookin' like tigers with what you've described.

Probably the best answer - but honestly, the fact that you're having this problem at all means that you probably don't have the stones to deal with it to begin with.

Either man up, or deal. Might you lose some players? Yes. Did you want them, if they act like this? No.

I will be dealing. They may leave anyways, without any input from me at the rate things are going.

[Dragonwalker]

That is unsafe conduct, and if they want to push the issue, slam them with the rulebook AND their crappy unsafe weapons.

But the rulebook is only for Rag.

I meant actually hitting them with the rulebook. Mine's pretty thick, considering it's in a three ring binder. They can read it when it's finally been peeled off of their faces.

On a lighter note, I agree with Arrakis' approach.

Good luck Bryn. Let us know how it goes, and if they have questions, they can find all of us right here.

[Whisper Moonson]

Just do a standard weapon check. Odds are good you'll be able to find a few soft spots where the pool noodle has broken down and you can feel core with just finger pressure. That's failure. You don't even have to swing it. Press against the tip with your hands. Can you feel core? Fail the tip.

If they pass the hand tests, do some hit tests and stab tests. The moment you feel core (it'll feel like a harder line/spot in the center of the foamy whack), fail the weapon. Tell them exactly why it failed, and don't let it back on the field. Suggest that they use one of the numerous high-quality tutorials available on this site for their next weapons.

No posturing, no violence, no smack talk. Just "Sorry, it failed because of [insert reason here]. You can't use it."

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

Thank you Whisper.

[Quorren]

Just do a standard weapon check. Odds are good you'll be able to find a few soft spots where the pool noodle has broken down and you can feel core with just finger pressure. That's failure. You don't even have to swing it. Press against the tip with your hands. Can you feel core? Fail the tip.

If they pass the hand tests, do some hit tests and stab tests. The moment you feel core (it'll feel like a harder line/spot in the center of the foamy whack), fail the weapon. Tell them exactly why it failed, and don't let it back on the field. Suggest that they use one of the numerous high-quality tutorials available on this site for their next weapons.

No posturing, no violence, no smack talk. Just "Sorry, it failed because of [insert reason here]. You can't use it."

You don't even have to guess if there is foam tearing. They cut slits into their own weapons not knowing what they were doing. Just find the slits and I'm sure a squeeze through them will push down pretty far. Assuming the slits weren't really small and they have widened since then, you can fail them for that reason alone.

[RowanUrsis]

Not to sound like a repeater... but, If the weapon isn't safe... don't let it on the field. If they cry and complain, tell them calmly and leader-ly like 

"I'm sorry, but your weapons don't pass, here are some loaners."

If they argue the fact, Calmly mention the rules and that you want a good clean chapter and will be following the rules. It helps if YOU and the rest of your unit / realm are also following them.

Remind them (and yourself) that this is a game / sport / hobby that you all love and spend time and money on, and just have SAFE fun.

[Tyndmyr]

What they said.

Having a supply of loaners on hand might help cushion the blow, but if you don't fail absolutely terrible weapons, the problem will only get worse until someone gets hurt.

[Bear]

These guys sound like they might be from Texas.....after all we have a saying

"I know what I did wrong....it will end differently this time" 

Sounds to me you gotta put your foot down on them or send them packing. It's not what I would WANT to do but you gotta think of the safety of everyone. Either the weapons go or they go. If they're not gonna change what they're doing, they're putting everyone else at risk, not respecting the leadership of the Unit(Assuming youre in charge), and just generally being dumba$$es

[Sir Magnus of Narnia]

Tell them this make Magnus sad, and who really wants that?

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

Tell them this make Magnus sad, and who really wants that?

I don't think they know you exist, which saddens me. But I will tell them.

[Sir Magnus of Narnia]

Tell them this make Magnus sad, and who really wants that?

I don't think they know you exist, which saddens me. But I will tell them.

Yeah screw the weapons, you obviously have bigger problems. Let me know if anyone needs an autograph once you explain how epic I am.

[Outhro Youkker]

Tell them the "There are safety rules for a reason, and you are invoking Rule 0 because you think you can get around the rules."

If they choose not to agree, follow up with "The weapons fails, and if you bring it on the field, we will have all who are heralds to auto kill you after Lay On."

[Aiden]

Plenty of new groups without the support of veteran players experience this. Albion sure as heck did. However, some of those same guys who made crap weapons and thought they were "safe enough" gradually saw the wisdom of conventional weapons building. You can't make these guys build the right swords if there's just you and a couple of pals messing around. On the other hand, they can't make you fight them with their crap gear. Build your gear to conventional weapons checking standards. Eventually, everyone will start to favor your style because its easier, lasts longer, and doesn't injure people. Dont' view these guys as a threat, they're just idiots. Everyone tries to take Dagorhir and put their own spin on it, even vets do it, but new people generally tend to put the emphasis of their "uniqueness" in crafting uber-special foamsmithing techniques that ALWAYS end in fail. Tell them they aren't special, show them that the conventional weapons building templates are more durable, safe, and ultimately more affordable.

[Ken Watanabe]

Do what Aiden said, and if they still refuse to follow rules. Drop em. There will always be more people to fight. If you can't conform em, then just dust your feet off and move on. Doesn't mean you can't be their friend just means neither they or you can agree on the weapons and therefore can't agree on Dag. And since you are the realm's leader you should not compromise to make Dag more accessible esp. in lei of safety.

In short: Tell them to change their weapons or change games.

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

First order of business: I'm not the realm leader. I just facilitate practices.

[Demox]

Step 1:Take foot
Step 2:Plant firmly in offenders ass.
Step 3:
Step 4:Profit

[Cryptlord Zageidh Teronband Rylberg]

First order of business: I'm not the realm leader. I just facilitate practices.

I'm not sure who is the realm leader. There's a reason we remain unofficial. It's kinda who has the most initiative that week. So really, a lot of our problems stem from not having a concise and clear structure.

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

First order of business: I'm not the realm leader. I just facilitate practices.

I'm not sure who is the realm leader. There's a reason we remain unofficial. It's kinda who has the most initiative that week. So really, a lot of our problems stem from not having a concise and clear structure.

Very true. Can you figure out who I am talking about?

[Casimir Glassjaw]

I'm not sure who is the realm leader. There's a reason we remain unofficial. It's kinda who has the most initiative that week. So really, a lot of our problems stem from not having a concise and clear structure.

How about you guys do something about that then so that you can solve problems locally instead of publicly airing your dirty laundry?

[Dudley S. Thunder]

Cas,

Can I be numbah 4?

[Cryptlord Zageidh Teronband Rylberg]

First order of business: I'm not the realm leader. I just facilitate practices.

I'm not sure who is the realm leader. There's a reason we remain unofficial. It's kinda who has the most initiative that week. So really, a lot of our problems stem from not having a concise and clear structure.

Very true. Can you figure out who I am talking about?

Well there's only one set of brothers in ours, so yes. Yes I can.

[Dragonwalker]

I nominate Zageidh as leader, and Bryn as second in command. There, get to it and become official. 

[Mith Velve]

This may or may not interest your "friends," but even with legal weapons, I know some individuals who are hesitant to play.  Most girls I bring out are more inclined to fight duels with me(also being a girl) until they're comfortable with the weapons, and convinced they won't hurt.  Cheesy, maybe, but in the name of potentially revealing female costumes later on, perhaps a change can be made...?

[Bryn, Corrupted Soul]

I'm not sure who is the realm leader. There's a reason we remain unofficial. It's kinda who has the most initiative that week. So really, a lot of our problems stem from not having a concise and clear structure.

How about you guys do something about that then so that you can solve problems locally instead of publicly airing your dirty laundry?

How about that didn't need to be said, because it was obvious.

[Casimir Glassjaw]

And yet instead of trying to do something productive about it you did...what, exactly?