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[Vali Racaion]

I've done the Eryndor blue thing and the blades did me well for months. Now I'm working on something a little prettier, a little better balanced, a better class weapon.
I started with the core. Friend told me if you take two fiberglass rods from the highway reflectors they sell at Home Depot, you can DAP them together into a core. Lots and lots of DAP.
So two together aren't as whippy, and they flex a bit but only in one direction. The core thickness is about 1.5 inches by a mere 3/8 of an inch. (Estimate)

My two questions now are: How do I go about weighting the weapon to balance it? The core is 36 inches long, so the tip will add a bit to that.

And two, will setting the striking surface of the weapon perpendicular to the direction of flex aid in reducing weapon fragility/whippiness?

[No One Cares]

Well here's the thing, Honestly I think you should use a better adhesive to hold the cores together, maybe something like gorilla glue (file off the extra after drying). Or, since you already dapped them together, reinforce it with gorilla glue.

As far as weighing goes, I think people tend to use some of that flattened barstock stuff, or you can use zinc pinewood derby weight bars that they sell at hobby shops. I believe the zinc bars come at 2oz per bar.

Setting the blade perpendicular to the flex will save you from failed flex tests, but it will flex side to side causing you at times to hit heads accidentally. I honestly don't know how much your core flexes, but I had an old red that had flat-side flex and I whipped people in the head a couple of times because of it.

[Dragonwalker]

Go to Tractor Supply Company, or a farming store of some kind, and get the fiberglass electric fence posts. At TSC they're 1.09 plus tax. Use those, you'll only need one for a blue or a min length red or even a javvy, and they have very little flex.

[Wraithe]

a 3/8" FG will work for a 48" red?  I was told that you didn't want to go higher then 40" with the 3/8" round due to flex and possibility of snapping since it is a red and your swinging hard.  Now I don't know, so Im trying to state this as more of a question but seem to have failed(its early).

For a blue it works well, I have also made a blue out of 2 marker rods like you have and strap taped them to hell after using epoxy on them.

[Dragonwalker]

As long as your not making a heavy red, yes, you can. Proper counterweighting will help with the flex issues. At least, I believe it would help, but I haven't tested that theory on anything except for my longswords....to the Forge!

[Arrakis]

Dragonwalker, NO!

3/8" round fiberglass rods are suitable for 32" overall-length weapons MAXIMUM.  I've had to cut an old one of mine all the way down to 30" to keep it from failing flex over time. 

TSC might be selling you 1/2" round fiber rods, though, which, for people who hit lightly, can be suitable for 48.01" reds for ~6 months to a year before it flexes out and are otherwise fine for most blues.


Vali: I'm not a fan of dual coring.  You end up with a core with very strange flex characteristics which can make it unpredictable when swung and lead to weird flatting incidents.  Also, it's heavier and bulkier than the equivalent single core.  Also also: How'd you get a core 1.5" wide by putting two 3/8" rods together? 

I recommend, for all of your bluesword needs: .524 kitespar from Goodwinds Kites.  Super-heavy hitters I know have yet to snap it, I've yet to snap it, it's a good diameter to build off of (not too small, not too large), and it's light, so you can make light swords or heavy, very well-counterweighted swords.  I've built 12.8 oz swords and 19 oz swords at ~34" with it.  I buy the 64" lengths and halve them, basically.

Otherwise, if you're dead-set on a solid core, go for 1/2" round fiber or 3/8" square fiberglass (for swords under 42") or 1/2" square fiberglass (for min-reds and heavy heavy blues).  Of course, I don't know where to get square fiberglass right now...  But you can order round fiberglass from: http://electric-horse-fence.com/electric_fence_posts/fiberglass_posts_braces_acccessories/fiberglass_posts.htm#halfinch

[Dragonwalker]

I'll have to check then.....the cores I get might be 1/2 in. Sorry about that......use for blues, not for reds. *facepalm*

[No One Cares]

If you get lucky, you can get half-inch driveway markers

[Vali Racaion]

How the hell DID I get 1.5 inches? It's 3/8 by 6/8. I wrapped the core tightly in tape and put just a little foam on the non-striking to get a feel for how it was gonna look and swing. I'm not free of the fear that I could get odd flex, but I'm not sure if it'd be enough to get me a head shot.
Also, in terms of weighting. Where do you want the balance on a sword to fall, exactly? Even if I buy weights, I'm not sure WHERE I want to put them if I want the balance to land properly.

[Arrakis]

Also, in terms of weighting. Where do you want the balance on a sword to fall, exactly? Even if I buy weights, I'm not sure WHERE I want to put them if I want the balance to land properly.

Very much a matter of personal preference.  I like my balance to "feel right" which normally means around 3-6" above where I grip the weapon most of the time.

[Whisper Moonson]

I made a minired out of a single 3/8" fg rod from TSC. Minimum weight, full handle counterweight. It started out life sort of marginal for flex, but over the last few months has gone to complete failure on flex. If you're going to use 3/8" fg for a core, use two glued together. Solid 1/2" or fatter is, of course, preferable.

DON'T USE GORILLA GLUE! The stuff is fantastic for holding together flat things like wood. It's terrible for applications where foamy things can expect to be crushed. I'm told DAP can hold double cores together, but I much prefer GOOP household or automotive cement.

Do make the wide part of the core match the wide part of the blade. You want it stiff in the direction you'll be cutting. Flex on the flat side is actually good - it makes your stabs (and accidental flats) more forgiving, and the behavior is more like a real sword.

Balance for a minired should be at or just inside the 1/3 point, measured from the pommel, and the grip+pommel should be about 1/4 of total length. To counterweight, use a couple of 3/8" steel or brass rods glued to the outside edge of the core rods (GOOP automotive for this), and 3/4" flat steel glued to the flat of the core rods. All of this only in the handle, of course.

[Olos]

I've done a few dual cores in the past, and just used duct tape/gorilla tape to hold them together.  Never had any problems with that, glue seems kinda funky for 2 cores...  Like i said tho, I haven't done it all that much.

1/2" round fiberglass is barely passable for a short red, and doesn't last forever.

[Wraithe]

what core is recommended for a 60" red?

[Gaul]

That's an awkward size.  I had plans to make one once, but they got put on hold due to, among other things, a shortage of suitable cores.  PVC will be bulky and heavy; all I can say is don't bet on 1" sch40 to pass for flex.  I'd do bandshoppe pole.

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

I would prolly use a bandshope pole, but you are gonna have to pad it extra, that lack of flex adds a lot of OOMPH to shots.

[Dragonwalker]

Bandshoppe pole or 1" SCH 40 PVC. I have a five foot red with a PVC core that still passes beautifully for flex, and is over a year old. I need to rebuild it though, it finally stopped passing for hit.

[Olos]

for a 5 foot red, I'd go with bandshoppe pole, 1/2" square fiberglass, or 3/4" round fiberglass.

As mentioned with the bandshoppe, you will need to add some extra friendly padding.  Bandshoppe will have virtually no flex at that length.

[Arrakis]

1/2" square fiberglass

This.  Ever so this.

[Olos]

1/2" square fiberglass

This.  Ever so this.

Yea, mine on this core is my favorite of 5.

[Thorgar]

my maul and pole arm is made from 1-1/4" thick wall pvc, good grip for my hands don't have to pad it up any. pretty light, no flex to speak of, and really good for over 5' in length.

though my brother says the pipe is WAY to big for a normal sized person to grip it. 

[Squire Lizard]

1/2 square is GAWD for reds. Well, second to the 1/2 x 3/4 rectangle stuff but that has weight.

PVC sucks, my opinion only. I know it works for others but so far I have only had luck with three pvc weapons lasting more then a few practices.

Bandshoppe... I am torn on. I know it works but we have broken 3 reds using it in the last year, so I dunno. I always heard they don't break.

[Wraithe]

yea I am still trying to find a good source for 1/2" square that doesnt require a $200+ order or $3 a foot.  I even found presanded square fiberglass but again it was like $2.50 a foot and required a $250 order.

[Vali Racaion]

If you're going to use 3/8" fg for a core, use two glued together. Solid 1/2" or fatter is, of course, preferable.

DON'T USE GORILLA GLUE! The stuff is fantastic for holding together flat things like wood. It's terrible for applications where foamy things can expect to be crushed. I'm told DAP can hold double cores together, but I much prefer GOOP household or automotive cement.

Do make the wide part of the core match the wide part of the blade. You want it stiff in the direction you'll be cutting. Flex on the flat side is actually good - it makes your stabs (and accidental flats) more forgiving, and the behavior is more like a real sword.

Balance for a minired should be at or just inside the 1/3 point, measured from the pommel, and the grip+pommel should be about 1/4 of total length. To counterweight, use a couple of 3/8" steel or brass rods glued to the outside edge of the core rods (GOOP automotive for this), and 3/4" flat steel glued to the flat of the core rods. All of this only in the handle, of course.

This is more or less what I did. I didn't think a minired'd work well in terms of flex/durability. So I've got 36 or so inches, a good blue.(I say "or so" because I gain a little at the end for pommel and stab tip, so I'll have 37-9 when it's finished.)

I have not weighted it, and I have not thought of how to make the hilt wide enough to grip properly.

[Whisper Moonson]

Go with the steel rods in the handle, then fatten up with leather or cord.

[Gaul]

The big fiberglass rake handles at Sears are 56" and about an inch across, maybe a bit more, but I'm not dressed and the pole in question is outdoors.

Just got it today; at first glance, looks great.  Essentially no flex but not unusually heavy, so plan accordingly.  As soon as I hefted it, the first thing that went through my head was, "But I already HAVE a red axe!"

Edit: got decent enough to get it off my patio without risking legal issues, and it's just a hair over 1 1/8" across.  Hollow tube, not nested-tube/honeycomb like bandpoles.  It's about the same weight as 3/4" PVC, probably a little lighter.  Can't speak for the durability until it breaks, but it feels pretty gnarly.

[Vali Racaion]

Should I start a new thread for the mace I'm building? So far, it's a club. General consensus on the forums is that if you put a mace/axe head on what is already 12 legal inches of striking, it'll fulfill letter and spirit of the rules. But when I think about maces, I don't think about a baseball bat. No, I want something with a weighty head I can use to crush people's bones! So I'm gonna put a bigger head on the last six inches of this mofo and I want to know a bit about what I can do and how!

Now, flanges. Flanges look cool. But I've never seen a mace like that in Dag. Is that because I've seen few maces with a proper head (about two or three?) or because there's a damn good reason not to do that?

[Arrakis]

Should I start a new thread for the mace I'm building? So far, it's a club. General consensus on the forums is that if you put a mace/axe head on what is already 12 legal inches of striking, it'll fulfill letter and spirit of the rules. But when I think about maces, I don't think about a baseball bat. No, I want something with a weighty head I can use to crush people's bones! So I'm gonna put a bigger head on the last six inches of this mofo and I want to know a bit about what I can do and how!

Now, flanges. Flanges look cool. But I've never seen a mace like that in Dag. Is that because I've seen few maces with a proper head (about two or three?) or because there's a damn good reason not to do that?

http://derian.us/maces/flanged_maces.html

->



Those were 28" on 1/2" Sch.40 PVC.

[Dragonwalker]

Ok, so for clarification: As long as there is 12" of strike legal surface, the flanges or axe or mace head don't have to be that length? Or they do?

[Olos]

Ok, so for clarification: As long as there is 12" of strike-safe surface, the flanges or axe or mace head don't have to be that length?

emphasis mine.

The cloth tape makes it not "strike-legal", but it is still (presumably) safe for striking.  Otherwise, yes.

[Dragonwalker]

Got it.

[Vali Racaion]

So I had in my head a cleric-y mace like Arrakis has. Then I actually made a huge Dark Lord Sauron mace with a weight in the head. So it's really top heavy, it's 35 inches but balances at 11 inches from the head (the head is 12 inches long.) 'S that good or bad?

[Olos]

What kind of weight in the head?

[Vali Racaion]

First I rebuilt the core because of flex. Now i'm rebuilding the sides because of hit. It's not really the same sword but for the hilt anymore, and I've lost all hope of making it slim and pretty. Why's it hit so hard with a lighter core?

[Vali Racaion]

So now -all- my weapons are failed. Even the ones that passed at Mayhem and Althyng. I don't understand why my stab tips worked fine before. Now, anyone looks at them and they dig fingers in to find the core and bend the tip over. What I do is I use a flat piece of blue foam to cap the top, then a chunk of couch foam, which I wrap an arc of more blue over to hold it in place. It doesn't hit hard except now I'm having core problems which I never had months ago. I'm not sure if there's something I've forgotten to do, or if the foam.... changed...?

[Arrakis]

So now -all- my weapons are failed. Even the ones that passed at Mayhem and Althyng. I don't understand why my stab tips worked fine before. Now, anyone looks at them and they dig fingers in to find the core and bend the tip over. What I do is I use a flat piece of blue foam to cap the top, then a chunk of couch foam, which I wrap an arc of more blue over to hold it in place. It doesn't hit hard except now I'm having core problems which I never had months ago. I'm not sure if there's something I've forgotten to do, or if the foam.... changed...?

That style of stabbing tip was common back in the day.  It really is not a good design.  Try using another layer of blue (2 layers) over the tip, then some marine foam, then your arc of blue.  Or, just do three over the tip, then add marine foam.  typically tapes 3/4"-1" of marine foam to get it to pass.

[Vali Racaion]

If I must use marine foam, are there any brick-and-mortar stores that commonly have it or something like it?

[Gaul]

The Gold's Gym mats at Wal-Mart are $20 for a 72" X 26" (or something like that) roll of 3/8" Ensolite, AKA marine foam.  It's great for stabbies but expands/contracts and changes softness depending on temperature.  I don't like it for those properties, but I still use it extensively because it's tough, squishy, and readily available.  I do two layers of camp pad, three layers of GG mat, and then a wrap of camp pad from flat to flat over that.

Which way do you do your wrap?  Blade to blade, or flat to flat?  I've seen lots of blade-to-blade wraps fail for foldover, but flat-flat wraps are more stable and spring back very well when they do get folded.

There's also POOF and NERF brand foam balls, whose quality for stabbing rivals high-density charcoal foam.  I've made many successful spear tips with the stuff,  and if your couch foam stabbies were failing for hit, switching to a denser open-cell like POOF may help.  Just remember that open-cell stabbies need a wider base than closed-cell.

[Traugott Weisskopf of Greyridge]

Arrakis, I did a similar design on one of my longsword, and the tip failed at rag. i had a kit from bestdagstuff.

[Varadin]

Arrakis, I did a similar design on one of my longsword, and the tip failed at rag. i had a kit from bestdagstuff.

you had a sissy checker. or built it wrong. Those tips he was selling had pleanty of padding.

[Judge Dredd]

Arrakis, I did a similar design on one of my longsword, and the tip failed at rag. i had a kit from bestdagstuff.

you had a sissy checker. or built it wrong. Those tips he was selling had pleanty of padding.

Sometimes they will fail stabby due to wrapping them too tight (feel core) or too lose (bends over). And if you hack allot with the tip, they can break down pretty quick.
Lets not throw the weapons checkers under the bus so readily, they are there for your protection.

[Leaf of Redwater]

Someone mentioned solid-round fiberglass, and I know it sounds bass-ackwards, but hollow-round fiberglass flexes (spelling?) less. I don't know about the square stuff, but hollow-round is LESS flexible than solid-round. I use 1" hollow fiberglass for my 8ft glaive, and have no problems with flex.

[Arrakis]

Someone mentioned solid-round fiberglass, and I know it sounds bass-ackwards, but hollow-round fiberglass flexes (spelling?) less. I don't know about the square stuff, but hollow-round is LESS flexible than solid-round. I use 1" hollow fiberglass for my 8ft glaive, and have no problems with flex.

It's because the stiffness of a rod is primarily a function of the outside diameter of the rod and the material inside of the rod in the solid case primarily just adds weight which increases the bending moment acting on the core, increasing flex.

[Judge Dredd]

Someone mentioned solid-round fiberglass, and I know it sounds bass-ackwards, but hollow-round fiberglass flexes (spelling?) less. I don't know about the square stuff, but hollow-round is LESS flexible than solid-round. I use 1" hollow fiberglass for my 8ft glaive, and have no problems with flex.

It's because the stiffness of a rod is primarily a function of the outside diameter of the rod and the material inside of the rod in the solid case primarily just adds weight which increases the bending moment acting on the core, increasing flex.

I always wondered about that. Best layman's explanation I have heard yet.
No sarcasm intended or implied, for reals, thanks!
I assume the thickness of the walls provide strength and rigidity, but at some point one must apply the laws of diminishing returns to that equation.
Damn you Arrakis now you have made me think *pours drink* Ah... that's better.

[Alric]

That style of stabbing tip was common back in the day.  It really is not a good design.  Try using another layer of blue (2 layers) over the tip, then some marine foam, then your arc of blue.  Or, just do three over the tip, then add marine foam.  typically tapes 3/4"-1" of marine foam to get it to pass.

To be clear, you recommend 3 layers of blue foam and .75"-1" of marine foam?

[Vali Racaion]

So I'm planning to try this flat-to-flat foam method. Let's see now it works out.

[Aros]

The Gold's Gym mats at Wal-Mart are $20 for a 72" X 26" (or something like that) roll of 3/8" Ensolite, AKA marine foam.  It's great for stabbies but expands/contracts and changes softness depending on temperature.  I don't like it for those properties, but I still use it extensively because it's tough, squishy, and readily available.  I do two layers of camp pad, three layers of GG mat, and then a wrap of camp pad from flat to flat over that.

Which way do you do your wrap?  Blade to blade, or flat to flat?  I've seen lots of blade-to-blade wraps fail for foldover, but flat-flat wraps are more stable and spring back very well when they do get folded.

There's also POOF and NERF brand foam balls, whose quality for stabbing rivals high-density charcoal foam.  I've made many successful spear tips with the stuff,  and if your couch foam stabbies were failing for hit, switching to a denser open-cell like POOF may help.  Just remember that open-cell stabbies need a wider base than closed-cell.

I'm not understanding what is meant by wrapping it flat-to-flat.

Any chance on explaining it a bit or pointing me in the direction of a tutorial?

[Dragonwalker]

Instead of along the striking edge of the sword, he puts the wrap on the flats.

[Alric]

Check out the GvK stabbing tip tutorial on the main page. It uses a flat to flat wrap of 3/16" volara (thin tear resistant closed cell) as the final step.

[Vali Racaion]

I can't seem to find that happy place between "not enough foam, the core jumps out and pulls a knife on the guy I stabbed" and "too much, the tip bends over and reaches down the blade to tickle my hand" Exactly how much open-cell should I use before we're talking about core foldover?

[Whisper Moonson]

A good rule of thumb is that the depth of the foam should never exceed the width of the foam. Any deeper and you get fold-over.