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  1 (1.1%)

  Skimmed it once or twice

  5 (5.7%)

  One or two solid readings, plus some skimming

  25 (28.4%)

  Numerous thorough readings, and frequent reference checks

  54 (61.4%)

  I memorized it verbatim

  3 (3.4%)

Total Members Voted: 88

[Whisper Moonson]

This isn't a rant, but it easily could be. I've noticed that a lot of people have a worrisome ignorance of the rules of our game. It's to be expected among new players, of course, but it seems to be fairly common among experienced players, too. It's not complete ignorance, but it's like there are holes in many fighters' knowledge of the rules. Given that anyone with a bit of experience may be called upon to run a weapons check or herald a battle, this state of affairs is just wrong.

OK, so maybe it is a rant. Never mind that. On to the science! Answer this completely unscientific poll so we can all know how often Dag fighters (at least the ones who answer polls) read the rules. With this data, we can make slightly less inaccurate assumptions about the general level of knowledge and ignorance of our rules.

[Sir Magnus of Narnia]

Two many people who play other games, and somehow got the idea Dagorhir is expected to accept that fact. Kind of like going into Burger King and bitching they don't have McNuggets.

I blame Hanzo and Jari. I don't blame Black Hawk because he gets enough play.

[Zarth Gleskin (green crusader)]

I carry a printed document of the rules with me to events and practices. If a question comes up i just pull them out and we continue. I really think a lot of people should be doing this. That way when there is a question about the rules the person not knowing the rules will feel like he/she needs to learn then when practically everyone pulls out a rule book of some kind

[Aiden]

I carry a printed document of the rules with me to events and practices. If a question comes up i just pull them out and we continue. I really think a lot of people should be doing this. That way when there is a question about the rules the person not knowing the rules will feel like he/she needs to learn then when practically everyone pulls out a rule book of some kind

This is golden, especially for new realms without any real vets around.

[Leaf of Redwater]

I agree with the "cross-gaming-confusion" theory. For instance: our realm generally plays Bel's green rules, which I understand to be (simply) "green does damage enough to cause uselessness, but not severance" BUT, this is not the case for strictly Dag rules.

Actually, I'm gonna suggest "realm allowances" as an addendum to the "cross-gaming" theory. yeah.

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

When I started I read it through thoroughly lots, then kept referencing it, though I check it less and less often as the years go by, and that is where I start to miss things, I forget where changes are and aren't made.

[Casimir Glassjaw]

I have yet to make it to Rag so I don't need to know the rules.  Amirite?

[Whisper Moonson]

I agree with the "cross-gaming-confusion" theory. For instance: our realm generally plays Bel's green rules, which I understand to be (simply) "green does damage enough to cause uselessness, but not severance" BUT, this is not the case for strictly Dag rules.

Actually, that's how Dag plays it. We just require you to put a stabbed or shot arm behind your back. It's still there and it does not count toward limb loss death. Technically, it can even stop one blue or red shot, at which point it does count toward limb loss death.

Cas, you're not drinking enough. Get back in your cave!

[Squire Lizard]

I think I have a pretty solid grasp of the rules as they are written, I can spout off just about any of the rules when asked about them. I also make sure that we have a current and up to date copy of the rules AND handbook at every practice.

I agree with Whisper that there are more than a few vets with a willful ignorance of the rules, I deal with it almost every practice. Now while I can see the whole "cross gaming" theory I would blame it more upon the fact that our rules are unclear, muddled, and interpreted in a few different ways as well as the fact that there is a trend to try to make sure our rules clearly different from the "evil twin" game. 80% of the fighters in my realm are strictly Dagorhir fighters and yet even all of them seem to disagree on certain rules, interpret the rules differently, and bicker about meanings so the cross gaming theory does have holes in it.

[Jack Stewart III]

I carry a printed document of the rules with me to events and practices. If a question comes up i just pull them out and we continue. I really think a lot of people should be doing this. That way when there is a question about the rules the person not knowing the rules will feel like he/she needs to learn then when practically everyone pulls out a rule book of some kind

This is golden, especially for new realms without any real vets around.

I think that every unit should do this, regardless of how new the realm is. I'm going to print out a few before our next practice actually...

[Hiram the Incredible]

WE HAVE RULES??!

[Milo Baines]

I have yet to make it to Rag so I don't need to know the rules.  Amirite?

[fistbump]

[Whisper Moonson]

You've had enough to drink, Milo. Stay out of the cave!

And we have three people who claim to have memorized the MoA? If it's not social hax, then curse this anonymity that prevents us from drafting that amazing trio into being heralds forever!

[Olos]

WE HAVE RULES??!

Yea.  If you haven't noticed, this is Dagorhir, not Nam.

[Hiram the Incredible]

Are you sure? You're not char...YOU ARE! only he would say such a thing..

[Milo Baines]

but casi doesn't drink, i had to go get it all out of the cave...

[Squire Ducky McFeelgood]

I think alot of the rules confusion people have, mainly the vets, is the evolving and changing nature of them. When we accept a new wording on an old rule, or change the nature in which it gets enforced or defined, we really don't have a huge announcement or even an explanation outside of War Council, which half of Dagorhir could really care less about attending. The person then usually doesn't find out they are wrong about it until someone mentions it, usually a year later at the next Rag, when they are getting in trouble for it or having their weapons fail.

We also have our rules thread so bogged down with BS its hard to read threw to find those answers or changes. When ever a rules question about a simple concept turns into a two page debate/flame war, people stop caring about trying to do it right and just use their common sense about it.

My suggestion for this would be to separate them into a Rules Question thread, and a Rules Development & Discussion thread (not unlike almost every other major national foam sport's boards) . That way when Joe Schmo Noob has a question about the stiff back padding on Javelins, it doesn't spiral out into three pages on nerfing full throws and the real problem being arrow fletchings, both of which have NOTHING to do with the original question.

[Forkbeard Rex]

I think the Duck is on to something.
FB

[Judge Dredd]

I've read the damn MOA too much. I used to read it in order to guide the construction of my gear to optimize performance. Now i read them with the same eyes, but in order to glean the the spirit of them and to try to guide the greater Dag community to fill loopholes and make the game better.

EX:

There are many rules designed to help Dag fighters construct a foam representation of a sword. Ideally these rules would do just that. In our desire to make the rules uncomplicated, and weapons check fast and smooth, what passes for a sword in this game is far from it's real world counterpart.

Same goes for armor.

When on the field and something not covered in the rules occurs, I simply do what makes sense. It all seems pretty simple to me now. The idea that one would get beaten by another fighter, (IE would have lost the fight and therefor die) then use the rules to deny the other fighter said victory, irritates me.

EX:
A spearman gets me (in armor) in the gut with a shot that knocks me on my ass, but i think his lead hand slipped a bit (meaning technically it was a single green). No way do I pop back up and call armor.
----------------------------
Rule Zero:
Dagorhir is a game of honor. In all aspects of Dagorhir, common sense supersedes loopholes. In applying the rules, safety comes first, followed by playability, then "realism." Please read the rules thoroughly (several times is recommended). The rules are written to be self-explanatory, clear, and detailed, but not every angle of every situation can been covered. Often a rule is clarified later in the same (or subsequent) paragraph. Loopholes will not even be considered by the Heralds (referees), check-in personnel, officials, or other players.
----------------------------
If you really want to enjoy simulated combat without the need of protective gear. This is the rule to look to. Any time you see a gray area in the rules, think of this one.

*agrees with Duck*
*Explodes*
Most of the flame wars are about tiny off rule hypothetical situations, that could be solved on the field in seconds if Rule Zero were applied. But here on the interwebs, Rule Zero dies a horrifying death to the rules lawyer, and keyboard cowboy. Especially as the hypothetical situation changes and morfs to help posters take pot shots at each other.

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

BH this is not a thread about the new rule. This has a possibility to go somewhere if you don't derail it.

[Roadh Rojo]

I read it every once in a while...
And read the weapons section a LOT. I'm constantly smithing.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

I read the rules pretty regularly, even though I've been playing a while.  In particular, I do so when we get into one of those fine point discussions on these forums. 

I honestly think that most of the issues about rules have to do with how many were taught the rules, or what they have been told about them.  I don't think that changes have an effect, as we're getting to the point of limiting those to a handful of changes a year.  Cross-gaming has its impacts, but only in the margins (the list of discrepancies is still pretty small).  In the end I think much of the confusion comes from the fact that most people haven't actually read the rules, or only do so when they're new and thus miss the times when some more experienced person leads them astray. 

Printing out the rules is a very, very good idea.  In my other hobby, for my official's license fee I get a copy of the current rules mailed to me every year.  There I'm one of the new kids, and often I'll pull out that book to review an issue or to help determine the meaning of the rule as written (and there some of the source rules come from the French). 

[Whisper Moonson]

When I lived in WA and participated in SCA rapier, the local kingdom had a stipulation that every combattant was also a junior marshal (equivalent of our heralds). As a result, to get authorized for combat, you had to pass a quiz on the rules of the game, and everyone was required to have a print copy with them for reference. So in every gym bag and hard golf case around, there was a copy of the ArBC along with the rapiers, daggers, gorgets, barber poles, masks, etc.

Now we're not near as formal and regulated as the SCA, but I think that this mindset is something to be encouraged in our game. We don't need to do authorizations, but we should encourage every fighter to consider themselves a herald, study the rules well enough to know what's in them, and keep a copy of the MoA on hand.

Then we can skip the simple "is there a rule about this?" questions and get directly into the rage and opprobrium of differing interpretations. Much more entertaining.

[Garret Ironshield]

I carry around copied packet with me to practice. With teenagers, we get into a lot of arguments (even though I have been calling people dead-on-the-spot for arguing). It is very helpful.

I also cite Rule Zero quite often.

[Syr Olaf]

I carry a printed document of the rules with me to events and practices. If a question comes up i just pull them out and we continue. I really think a lot of people should be doing this. That way when there is a question about the rules the person not knowing the rules will feel like he/she needs to learn then when practically everyone pulls out a rule book of some kind

This is a good practice. We require that all our people carry with them and have it at practices and at battles. If a question comes up most look to us to look through our copies of the MOA

[Hiram the Incredible]

we need one for the field, to keep on a stand. roughly Gutenburg Bible-esque... are the rules on the rules PAGE itself up to date?

[Leaf of Redwater]

I agree with the "cross-gaming-confusion" theory. For instance: our realm generally plays Bel's green rules, which I understand to be (simply) "green does damage enough to cause uselessness, but not severance" BUT, this is not the case for strictly Dag rules.

Actually, that's how Dag plays it. We just require you to put a stabbed or shot arm behind your back. It's still there and it does not count toward limb loss death. Technically, it can even stop one blue or red shot, at which point it does count toward limb loss death.

H'okay, yes. M'bad. It's buried in the last part, (6.7) but on the hit zone/weapon type graph it just says "lose limb" in the "leg or arm" row  under every color but white.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

we need one for the field, to keep on a stand. roughly Gutenburg Bible-esque... are the rules on the rules PAGE itself up to date?

As of the current rules, yes.  The one change voted through last Ragnarok hasn't been added yet, but it technically doesn't take affect until next Ragnarok.

[Lady Krystal]

If I were to wager a guess on my depth of knowledge regarding the MoA, I'd say I'm likely hovering around the 96-98% margin. I've got four copies of the MoA alone (three I printed specifically for when I ran Weapons Check at Gates or War several years back) and I carry one in my notebook with me every event I go to.

My husband likes to rules lawyer a lot - so I'm usually the one with the real knowledge in the group I do re-read pieces of the MoA that are brought up that I've either a) lost my familiarity with  or b) anticipating needing to know soon (like when the spring comes and the new kids swarm the field with their cloud swords and leather jacket armor )

The only thing I'm missing from my "MoA rules harbinger" garb set is a set of calipers for armor check and my stainless steel weapons template You'll usually find me somewhere with electrical tape and a measuring tape already...

As of the current rules, yes.  The one change voted through last Ragnarok hasn't been added yet, but it technically doesn't take affect until next Ragnarok.

This also may lead to confusion. Some realms put Ragnarok rules into place immediately (so everyone is "ready" by Ragnarok next year) or not at all at home (go to Rag at your own risk) and some realms institute house rules that lead to confusion at local/regional/national events.

[Squire Ducky McFeelgood]

Hold on. This is where I have to derail the thread a little. People are actually agreeing with me? With the nature of how confusion over the rules starts, or that we need separate threads for answering and debating? Just trying to validate myself and also see if this separation thing takes off, cause i would like that.

I personally read the MoA when i first started and re read it every once in a while when i get bored. The first thing all my retainers have to do is pass a rules quiz, well before we do any fight training. I've read every change and rewording once I found out about it and I consider myself pretty good about updating my idea on certain rules. When ever we get into debates out here on the threads, I go back and re read those sections that it pertains too, and generally try to use the rules verbatim to answer questions or explain things.

[Hiram the Incredible]

we need one for the field, to keep on a stand. roughly Gutenburg Bible-esque... are the rules on the rules PAGE itself up to date?

As of the current rules, yes.  The one change voted through last Ragnarok hasn't been added yet, but it technically doesn't take affect until next Ragnarok.

THANKS!

[Squire Lizard]

It really isn't hard to get the pages of the rules printed out, three hole punched, and put into sleeves in a three ring binder. That way when a new rule comes out, is changed, or the whole thing is (sigh) redone it is fairly easy to replace the old version with the newer one. I have 1 full color copy including the handbook and two black and white copies of just the rules that go to every practice. Hell the three of them cost me less then $40 in total. I think most, if not all realms should always have a copy at hand on the field. I am glad I am not the only one that feels this way.

Also, I whole heartedly agree with the confusion that stems from someone not having a full grasp of the rules teaching a new person what's what and then having the new person follow THOSE rules verbatim, only to get into trouble because what they were taught was wrong.

[Arrakis]

Print, sure, or just call up the rules page on your phone whenever you need to.

Technology, right?

[Athron]

Do you think the % of players of Dag who don't read the actual rulebook is > the % professional athletes who  don't actually go and directly read the rule book?

My gut tells me probably not, what do you think?

[Hollo]

Do you think the % of players of Dag who don't read the actual rulebook is > the % professional athletes who  don't actually go and directly read the rule book?

My gut tells me probably not, what do you think?

Meh, the idea is that they SHOULD.  Everything we craft, use, and do is all based around these rules.  If one isn't followed, it isn't fair/safe for all who're around said rulebreaker.

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

Do you think the % of players of Dag who don't read the actual rulebook is > the % professional athletes who  don't actually go and directly read the rule book?

My gut tells me probably not, what do you think?

Probably not. But likewise, when in our weekly (rather then daily) practices, we screw something up, no one is making us run laps, or adding onto our drills. In most Dag practices they don't do drills to build those skill correctly so you don't screw up like they are wont to in professional practices.

I guess what I am saying is since we don't have someone whose paid job it is to know the rules and drill them into us as a lifestyle, and since we wouldn't like that anyways, its our job to step up and learn them.

[Ulfgard Ófriðr]

As you've probably gathered from any of my other posts that you may have happened upon, my unit is relatively new (< 1year old). At this point, we have 4 members, three of us newbies and the other guy that I've bitched about in my other posts that's played this for three years then went on to SCA and Markland and then came back to scare off most of our unit when he installed himself as our mentor.... /rant largely omitted.

 Anyway, there are lots of rules that apparently have gotten lost or misinterpreted since whenever it is the he learned them. To counter this, my good friend Brita has taken the liberty of printing the MoA and bringing it along to every practice to reduce the large number of misteachings.


Final unrelated note, because I have to be a grammar nazi because this is actually a personal pet peeve of mine:

When we accept a new wording on an old rule, or change the nature in which it gets enforced or defined, we really don't have a huge announcement or even an explanation outside of War Council, which half of Dagorhir could really care less about attending.

This should read "could NOT care less about." As it reads above, since the person in question COULD care less, they actually assign some degree of worth to it. By saying, instead, that "half of Dagorhir could not care less about" War Council, the correct meaning is delivered: that these people are more concerned about how many licks it would take to get to the center of the Heidelberg Castle than they do about War Council.

[Syr Olaf]

I see that 3 people said they "I memorized it verbatim". WHO THE HELL ARE YOU? I want to test you veratim

[Whisper Moonson]

They're in hiding. They know that they'll never be allowed out of their yellow tabards again if anyone finds out their terrible secret!

BTW - not me. I was the first #4 response.

[Olos]

I'm somewhere between 3 and 4, but since I confuse things between dag and B once in a while, i put down 3.

[Judge Dredd]

I see that 3 people said they "I memorized it verbatim". WHO THE HELL ARE YOU? I want to test you veratim

*raises hand*
Although the armor rules still confuse the hell out of me.

[Athron]

Do you think the % of players of Dag who don't read the actual rulebook is > the % professional athletes who  don't actually go and directly read the rule book?

My gut tells me probably not, what do you think?

Probably not. But likewise, when in our weekly (rather then daily) practices, we screw something up, no one is making us run laps, or adding onto our drills. In most Dag practices they don't do drills to build those skill correctly so you don't screw up like they are wont to in professional practices.

I guess what I am saying is since we don't have someone whose paid job it is to know the rules and drill them into us as a lifestyle, and since we wouldn't like that anyways, its our job to step up and learn them.

My point is that to think we can somehow will people into reading and knowing the rulebook is likely fighting an uphill battle against a general human condition, something not unique to Dagorhir.  And thus unlikely to succeed, no matter how much we think people 'ought' to do it.

So you gotta find sneaky ways to force them to learn.  Cause any direct approach is pitting "amount of effort dedicated local Dag veteran is willing to make" against "human disposition to avoid detailed rulebook learning/memorization like the plague".

If I was a general, I know I would not want to fight that battle head-on.

[Brita Deirdresdatter]

As you've probably gathered from any of my other posts that you may have happened upon, my unit is relatively new (< 1year old). At this point, we have 4 members, three of us newbies and the other guy that I've bitched about in my other posts that's played this for three years then went on to SCA and Markland and then came back to scare off most of our unit when he installed himself as our mentor.... /rant largely omitted.

 Anyway, there are lots of rules that apparently have gotten lost or misinterpreted since whenever it is the he learned them. To counter this, my good friend Britta has taken the liberty of printing the MoA and bringing it along to every practice to reduce the large number of misteachings.

I've gotten into the habit of reading the MoA at least once a month, sometimes more (as Nanengalad's smith, I have to know at least the weapons rules inside and out), and referencing it whenever I'm not completely certain of something.  These checks have been more frequent lately, since our mentor's told us (among other things) that two-handed green hits to a limb count towards death, nut shots aren't legal and that bearded axes and scythes are illegal b/c they can potentially hook a limb or neck.  I'm hoping having a copy of the MoA on hand at all times will help us to get things straightened out.

Ulfgard, one "t" in Brita, two in Brigitta.  (I'm not actually fussed about it, just giving you a hard time... )

[Hanzo of Narnia]

Do you think the % of players of Dag who don't read the actual rulebook is > the % professional athletes who  don't actually go and directly read the rule book?

My gut tells me probably not, what do you think?

Probably not. But likewise, when in our weekly (rather then daily) practices, we screw something up, no one is making us run laps, or adding onto our drills. In most Dag practices they don't do drills to build those skill correctly so you don't screw up like they are wont to in professional practices.

I guess what I am saying is since we don't have someone whose paid job it is to know the rules and drill them into us as a lifestyle, and since we wouldn't like that anyways, its our job to step up and learn them.

My point is that to think we can somehow will people into reading and knowing the rulebook is likely fighting an uphill battle against a general human condition, something not unique to Dagorhir.  And thus unlikely to succeed, no matter how much we think people 'ought' to do it.

So you gotta find sneaky ways to force them to learn.  Cause any direct approach is pitting "amount of effort dedicated local Dag veteran is willing to make" against "human disposition to avoid detailed rulebook learning/memorization like the plague".

If I was a general, I know I would not want to fight that battle head-on.

Just want to point out that in the SCA a heavy fighter has to authorize to fight. It just involves having passing armour and demonstrating you are safe on the field and have a general understanding of the rules. If this is against human disposition then why are they so much larger than dag? Perhaps the idea of authorizing is just against the "dagorhir disposition"?

discuss

[Athron]

They have created a system that mandates rules knowledge and compliance.  I agree, that is a solution, and a clever one that trumps "well, people *ought* to know the rules, so they better go read them" approach.

However, I've seen several authorizations and am familiar with a reasonably wide array of SCA fighters.  They certainly understand their rules better than avg. Dag, demonstrating their social norms and in-place policies have success.  However, I know many of their fighters either [don't know/have fundamental disagreements on] nuanced aspects of their rules and such (rules of melee engagement, etc.).  When I went and closely read the kingdom's rules a few times and brought up specific wording questions to very skillful and knowledgeable vets of SCA who I hold to the highest respect, they were usually completely unaware of the rule I was referencing or did not know the particular wording but had an operational knowledge of it.  In other words, like Dagorhir, their knowledge of the rules was overwhelmingly focused on in-use, day-to-day reality of playing the game, and in turn were unable to quickly recollect rules that are relevant in more boutique situations.   Which struck me as similar to Dag.

I'm not sure how the size of the SCA works into this, as the variables that correspond to their success/magnitude are of such a wide array I would be hesitant to pin human disposition towards rules knowledge as a variable that is relevant to the discrepancy in our organization's sizes.

[Hanzo of Narnia]

My point is that the average SCA fighter is not told to know the rules they are made to know the rules (in at least a basic form) or they dont fight. I refer to the dagorhir disposition  because any sort of hurdle (money, time, commitment) now matter how small seems to infuriate the average dagorhirrim.

[Syr Olaf]

Once upon a time when I started in this glorious game. In Kingdom of Avalon( Chapter we call them now). I had to go to three practices and fight with a sword (or Club) and shield. Then test with three vets before I could fight at a battle. Then you wanted to learn any other weapon styles ( proficiencies) you had to wait a month before testing to fight with that weapon. It worked out great. If someone did not pass the test they were not allowed to fight with said weapon at a battle. There were also Armor and heralding proficiencies. Now keep in mind that Dagorhir in Ohio started with Kingdom Petwyvern who did SCA and Dagorhir and had these tests as well. Avalon founders split from them.  I wish I could bring that back but that will never happen.

[Squire Ducky McFeelgood]

We've actually been talking about that and working out kinks of trying to do it here in Byzantium. (We heard about it from Shatty.) So if you have some tips or know of any problems you had with it, I'd love to hear them.

[Judge Dredd]

Aratari requires you to fight in 3 events before they will let you use a bow and arrow.

[Stryfe]

I have to be a Nazi Nazi, personal pet peeve of mine:

Final unrelated note, because I have to be a grammar nazi because this is actually a personal pet peeve of mine:

When we accept a new wording on an old rule, or change the nature in which it gets enforced or defined, we really don't have a huge announcement or even an explanation outside of War Council, which half of Dagorhir could really care less about attending.

This should read "could NOT care less about." As it reads above, since the person in question COULD care less, they actually assign some degree of worth to it. By saying, instead, that "half of Dagorhir could not care less about" War Council, the correct meaning is delivered: that these people are more concerned about how many licks it would take to get to the center of the Heidelberg Castle than they do about War Council.

One) You are not being a grammar Nazi. The statement you highlighted is grammatically correct.

B) The phrase "could care less" is a colloquialism equivalent to "could not care less", the omission of the negation does not necessarily change the meaning of the statement, if it is generally understood that the negation is not explicitly present.

III) Being a pedantic jerk makes you look like a pedantic jerk.