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[Judge Dredd]

4.9 - Grappling:

4.9.1 - Grappling is defined as wrestling in a safe and reasonable manner, attempting to subdue or unbalance your opponent without strikes, throws, or joint/nerve holds.

4.9.2 - A person in armor or rigid plastic safety equipment or carrying a bow and/or arrows may never initiate a grapple.

4.9.3 - Players are not allowed to initiate a grapple starting more than two steps away from an opponent.

4.9.4 - Grappling from behind should be done with great caution and will be closely monitored by Heralds for safety.

4.9.5 - Body checks (blocking your opponent's movement using one's body) are allowed.

4.9.6 - Punching and kicking are never allowed, except in the case of shield kicks as outlined above.

4.9.7 - An unarmored fighter may choose to initiate a grapple with any opponent, including those who are armored or carrying bows or arrows.
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I was thinking about trying to rewrite these to be more clear, but it seems every time I think I fix one thing, it opens up another. Anyone want to help tackle this?

[Disirregardlessly hivemind]

What do you think is unclear?

[Judge Dredd]

Well lets say Johnny no shirt (with exceptional bottom garb) is running down the sidelines with some sort of holy object in an effort to take it behind his line. I am wearing armor (rusty shoulder spauldrons). I (shieldless) decide to take a pursuit angle to knock him off the edge of the world. Can I shoulder check him? can I shove him off with my hands? Can I grab his shoulders and twist him so he falls? Or since I am wearing Armor, do I have to use a weapon?

[Leaf of Redwater]

I'd like clarification on body checks, too.
I feel that, even armored, a check isn't trying to control movement, and should be allowed. many times I have thought, "I could check this guy, unbalance him, then hit" but I don't because it's under grappling and I wear at least some armor most of the time.

[Alric]

Body checks seem like a 'common sense' thing; ie, if you're wearing bracers, go for it, but if you're wearing segmented shoulders like this you shouldn't:

[Squire Ducky McFeelgood]

If an unarmored person slamed into me, i'd probably laugh.
If a Lether Armored person slammed into me, i'd probably not care.
If Chain slammed into me, i'd probably forget about it after a while.
If metal armor slammed into me, i'd be pissed off.
Use common sense.

[Leaf of Redwater]

Common sense; isn't.

I generally wear sword-arm armor (leather pauldron and a bracer), with just a minimum buckler on my other side. You both know if someone saw me body check another person with my unarmored/unshielded shoulder, they'd notice my armored side and go "he's armored, he checked, I can too! *SLAM! CRACK! BROKEN!* (exaggeration, but still...)

[wolfsbane]

this is the whole reason I shed my armor,
pants and belt all i wear for fighting (yes i know not dag legal)

[Rap the Space Drunk]

I've interpreted the armor clause only relevant once a clench is brought into play. That's just how I look at it though. Shoving, shoulder checking, tripping, all kosher with armor.


Shield punching, is it illegal with gauntlets on?

[Squire Ducky McFeelgood]

Your hand should never make contact in a proper shield punch, so i see no problem if done in a legal dag gauntlet. Out of topic completely thou.

Well lets say Johnny no shirt (with exceptional bottom garb) is running down the sidelines with some sort of holy object in an effort to take it behind his line. I am wearing armor (rusty shoulder spauldrons). I (shieldless) decide to take a pursuit angle to knock him off the edge of the world. Can I shoulder check him? can I shove him off with my hands? Can I grab his shoulders and twist him so he falls? Or since I am wearing Armor, do I have to use a weapon?

Shoulder Check? No. I would be wary of this kind of move no matter if armor were involved at all.
Shove? Yes. Its not grappling, thou people may confuse it for punching and cry at you about that
Grab? Sure, as long as your armor doesn't come into contact with him pretty much. SO you can't hug him, but you could move him with your hands, provided they were unarmored.

At least that what i would do.

[Squire Lizard]

Hmmm, shield punching not legal because of armor... good point.

I personally don't feel a medium strength (judged accordingly to compensate for the person being checked size) body check is pushing it. Following the letter of the rule, you aren't controlling the other person or laying a hand on them. With that aside, I don't feel it is an overly unsafe move, unless done INCREDIBLY unsafe and at that point... ya we should know what to do.

Taking the sizes of the fighters into question and also adding in the factor of what exactly the armor is, looks like, and it's potential to harm the person being checked, common sense (yes I know it's not common) should be more than enough to keep this a safe move. Then again, the amount of variables in this equation make this a slippery slope to say the least.

While this is how I feel, there are a few vets in my realm that just do not like, let alone follow the grappling rules. In the fact that they do not consider it ok for an armored fighter to even grab the handle of an unarmored fighters weapon, including spears  I remind these fighters that this is NOT how the majority of the Dag community feels and that is their personal decision and to not get butt hurt when someone does it to them, whether at our practice or at an event.

So please, use your head before you body check someone while wearing armor. If your armor could harm someone, or you cannot pull the strength of the check, or just refuse to decrease the strength of the check you should just not check or be expected to be tossed off a field if you do it wrong.

EDIT - Ducky, are you saying it's ok to grab an unarmored opponent while you are armored if the hand or arm you are using isn't armored? That is how it seems and I have to say I do NOT agree with that. If you have ANY armor at all you are considered armored and SHOULD NOT grab an unarmored opponent at all. I really just cannot believe that was just said...

[Whisper Moonson]

For simplicity's sake and to err on the side of safety, I'd just lump tackling and body checks in with grappling and have done with it. If you're in armor, don't do it. Besides that clarification, the only change I'd make would be to exempt cups from the rigid protective equipment rule. I really can't see anyone getting hurt in a grapple because their opponent was wearing a cup.

[Disirregardlessly hivemind]

I'm with Rap. The answer to Blackhawk's questions are:

Yes
Yes
No
Only if you want to kill him instead of knock him down

[Whisper Moonson]

Of course you want to kill him! That's why we're here - killing people! Besides, the dude has no shirt and a holy doodad. We can't allow that sort of behavior. Mighty hewing is the only answer.

[Squire Ducky McFeelgood]

Yes. I do understand under direct interpretation of the rules, that anyone wearing any armor cannot grapple. period.

I however think that is too cut and dry of an answer, and that there are many gray areas in all reality as too what is and is not grappling, like Blackhawk was asking about. I said you could grab with you hand, but not hug/full grapple down.

I think what it comes down to is putting hardness into soft flesh, so if my soft flesh is grabbing yours, i don't see a problem, but as soon as you pull me into/hug with/tackle or push me/check with your hard armor, its not cool. Thats how i view it.

[Talon Decado]

Ok so this might seem kind of stupid but... whats the point of grappling? I didnt think you could kill someone in dag without a weapon? I mean checks and shoves i understand, but if your unarmed and you start actually grappling with someone.... Where do you go from there??? Do you scream for a teammate to run over and stab him while you hold him down or what?

[Askarus Space Beard]

If you want to grapple, take your armor off. Like, mid fight, its really hardcore to see someone shed their armor, drop their weapons and just tackle the **** out of someone.

do it, no need for this "grey area" talk, just do it.

or we can talk more instead of picking up swords and beating the hell out of eachother.

[Hollo]

If you want to grapple, take your armor off. Like, mid fight, its really hardcore to see someone shed their armor, drop their weapons and just tackle the **** out of someone.

do it, no need for this "grey area" talk, just do it.

or we can talk more instead of picking up swords and beating the hell out of eachother.

Just picturing it gives me an image of the term "bada**."  Somebody do this while I'm there to witness.   

[Askarus Space Beard]

Make yourself known on the field at rag and you can witness it first hand.

[Hundrsut]

another option instead of body checking is to run at them and slam the breaks in front of them lets them initiate the grapple    

fun story
having a king battle and i was arching in armor when guy runs up to kill king i just squatted/boxed him out and kept moving with him from side to side till help came...have no idea why he didnt just swing but it was awesome

[Judge Dredd]

What to do is not necessarily what I was looking for, legislation covering it is.

[Hollo]

Make yourself known on the field at rag and you can witness it first hand.

An invitation or a challenge?   Either way, I accept!   .. next year, when I'm finally old enough to go.


Back on subject, doesn't rule 4.9.1 cover the entirety of it?  Everything about grappling after that seems to just come back to the definition. 

"4.9.1 - Grappling is defined as wrestling in a safe and reasonable manner, attempting to subdue or unbalance your opponent without strikes, throws, or joint/nerve holds."

Do it in a safe and reasonable manner without strikes, throws, or joint/nerve holds. 
If you believe the gear you've got on could possibly injure the other participant, don't grapple.
If you believe the gear the other participant has on could possibly harm you, don't grapple.

[Milo Baines]

i actually think these rules are worded fairly well...

4.9.1 - Grappling is defined as wrestling in a safe and reasonable manner, attempting to subdue or unbalance your opponent without strikes, throws, or joint/nerve holds.

unbalance means body checks to me...also "tackles" and the like...but not grabbing weapons or shields (why does no one ever mention grabbing shields?) shoves would be a bit of a grey area, but i'm thinking it's okay 'cause you're only pushing them...

4.9.3 - Players are not allowed to initiate a grapple starting more than two steps away from an opponent.

means you won't be making a running tackle from the other side of the field

the rest is understandable and needs no clarification...what prompted this particular journey BH?

edited after some thought...

[Wren Rousseau-Baines]

...I think what it comes down to is putting hardness into soft flesh, so if my soft flesh is grabbing yours, i don't see a problem...

 

Well lets say Johnny no shirt (with exceptional bottom garb) is running down the sidelines with some sort of holy object in an effort to take it behind his line. I am wearing armor (rusty shoulder spauldrons). I (shieldless) decide to take a pursuit angle to knock him off the edge of the world. Can I shoulder check him? can I shove him off with my hands? Can I grab his shoulders and twist him so he falls? Or since I am wearing Armor, do I have to use a weapon?

What is your issue exactly with the way the rules are written right now? Under the current rules your best best at stopping him would either be a weapon or possibly tripping him up by using your body as an obstacle (still not deliberately making physical contact, i.e. making him run into you, not you grabbing him). If you are trying to fix the rules to where you can touch/grab/push someone with your unarmored hands whilst having armor somewhere else on your body (not including cups, I'm with Whisper on that one), then I would suggest an addition to the armor/grapple rule (4.9.2) that distinguishes between grappling(hands) and grappling(full body).

[Braxton Kai]

.....I personally don't feel a medium strength (judged accordingly to compensate for the person being checked size) body check is pushing it. Following the letter of the rule, you aren't controlling the other person or laying a hand on them. With that aside, I don't feel it is an overly unsafe move, unless done INCREDIBLY unsafe and at that point... ya we should know what to do.....

While this is how I feel, there are a few vets in my realm that just do not like, let alone follow the grappling rules. In the fact that they do not consider it ok for an armored fighter to even grab the handle of an unarmored fighters weapon, including spears  I remind these fighters that this is NOT how the majority of the Dag community feels and that is their personal decision and to not get butt hurt when someone does it to them, whether at our practice or at an event....

This is how I feel for the most part. 

I've also came across  "veteran" dag players who've gotten butt hurt from me grabbing their weapon shafts and exposed handles (as well as shields) while armored saying that "its grappling" but I've had to disagree with them. So would be nice to let those people who think that, know that they are wrong (unless its a house rule or something)

Now while safety for others is my first concern, I am a bit of a rough Dagorhir player. I would like to see some leniency when it comes to grappling in armor, especially if when two armored combatants are locked in combat and are less than a few inches apart or already touching. While I know it highly depends on what kind of armor is being wore and what's all going on, I'd be nice (for me and others I'd guess) if we were allowed to grapple once up close and personal and if everything is done in a safely manner.

I do see a few issues with this though.
1) Simplicity. You either can or cannot grapple in armor, adding in a gray area or other exceptions complicates the ruling.
2) Playability, it makes leather and other armors more powerful because you can grapple if needed. This leaves out poor plate and other mainly metal armors I'd guess.
3) Safety is a semi issue, but we all know that if armor touches your opponents body they explode. Especially metal knee and elbow cops.

I know we all have our preferences, but it would be fun if armored players were allowed to grapple to an extent as long as safety came first.
------

In the previous Blackhawk scenario, I'd say shove him out of bounds with your hands or turn whatever weapon you had in your hands horizontally brace with both hands and shove, if you wanted to be fully in the clear.

So, yes to hand/forearm shoving, no to shoulder checking (although a body check with an unarmored area might be okay), no to grabbing his shoulders, and yes to either shoving him or killing him with your weapon.

[Father Ciaran]

Now I'm confused. You can NOT grab shields or weapon handles/hafts/pommels/not part of the striking surface?

[Disirregardlessly hivemind]

As long as you accept that the definition of "grapple" is to grab another player's body, armor, or attached gear (and not handheld weapons or shields) then it's pretty straightforward.

Checking, shoving or tripping are not grapples. Grabbing a weapon or shield is not a grapple.

[Janwin]

Go back to drinking, Father.

They were saying that the more commonly accepted interpretation is that all of those are perfectly legit in armor.  I'd agree, since grabbing a weapon is not grabbing a body.

[Askarus Space Beard]

Its legal to grapple in-house in pgh with leather armor, everyone loves it and nobody has problems.

[Disirregardlessly hivemind]

I ****ing wish. You have any idea how irritating it is for us that since our masks count as armor, we can't grapple?

[Squire Ducky McFeelgood]

I agree leather should be allowed to initiate. And i think a change stating that if someone is wearing like just bracers, or just a helm, they should be allowed to grapple.

[Father Ciaran]

I never stopped drinking long enough to go back to it. But seriously I need a straight answer.

[Squire Ducky McFeelgood]

You are allowed to grab anything that is not their body and not have it count as grappling.

[Father Ciaran]

Thank you.

[Drunken Bob (For Congress)]

Well lets say Johnny no shirt (with exceptional bottom garb) is running down the sidelines with some sort of holy object in an effort to take it behind his line. I am wearing armor (rusty shoulder spauldrons). I (shieldless) decide to take a pursuit angle to knock him off the edge of the world. Can I shoulder check him? can I shove him off with my hands? Can I grab his shoulders and twist him so he falls? Or since I am wearing Armor, do I have to use a weapon?

For clarification I would state, body to body contact is not to be initiated by anyone with armor. Now you can clarify that as torso armor, or upper body armor. But I think grappling should be defined as body to body contact of all sorts. Body to body involves anything that they can not readily let go, and would include garb, and strapped on shields in some cases (like a buckler or some such).

My only actual concern with armor grappling is metal torsos and helmets.
Personally I don't think that leather is a problem unless it is metaled, because i don't want someone wearing a skirt like Thrushes to whip that around and catch me in a tooth (nothing against Thrush he is a great guy and a responsible fighter, just mentioning his armor).

I have no problem with leg armor being in a grappling match, because throws are not allowed (allegedly, although if someone could hip throw me in the middle of a fight they get my kudos, I am not an easy person to throw).

So long story short, grappling is body to body contact, be it grabbing a person, shoulder checking, or stepping on someones garb to trip them, and is not to be initiated by anyone with armor.

If we allow leather armor to grapple, that will just lead to an influx of ninja brig and the like, and possibly metal armor wearers grappling.

You are allowed to grab anything that is not their body and not have it count as grappling.

So if I came up to you while I was wearing full plate, grabbed your shirt and threw you to the ground that is OK? To me that is not OK and is grappling

[Askarus Space Beard]

It would be badass and manly though.

[Disirregardlessly hivemind]

Bob, please show me a published definition of the word "grapple" that would include shoulder checks, shoving or tripping.

[Drunken Bob (For Congress)]

Bob, please show me a published definition of the word "grapple" that would include shoulder checks, shoving or tripping.

encarta.msn.com

grap·ple [ grápp'l ]
verb  (past and past participle grap·pled, present participle grap·pling, 3rd person present singular grap·ples)
Definition:
1. intransitive verb struggle with somebody: to struggle with somebody in a close hand-to-hand fight

hand to hand includes bodily contact -

hand-to-hand  (hndt-hnd) KEY
ADJECTIVE:
Being at close quarters: hand-to-hand combat.

But even that being said, dagorhir definitions are a little different than generic every day definitions.

If you shove me I would say that is initiating a grapple, if you shoulder check that is also initiating a grapple, and if i did the same with you while you were in armor it would seem that I initiated and you could then tackle me and chuck me over the castle wall (although i do have a tendency to cling, so getting rid of me is not as easy)

[Squire Ducky McFeelgood]

If anyone ever grabbed my shirt and was able to pull me down with it, and not tear my shirt, i'd be okay with that. Like i said, my worry is the hard armor coming into my soft flesh.

But most likely they are going to tear my shirt, and im going to beat them.

[Drunken Bob (For Congress)]

If anyone ever grabbed my shirt and was able to pull me down with it, and not tear my shirt, i'd be okay with that. Like i said, my worry is the hard armor coming into my soft flesh.

But most likely they are going to tear my shirt, and im going to beat them.

but wouldnt you consider that a grapple?

it isnt about what you would be ok with, I would be fine with someone in armor tackling me and the like, it is how I dislocated my shoulder the second time, and i got right back up, killed him hard, and then cried to myself as I left the field.

Hell i would be ok if someone kicked me in the leg, because I spend many a year fighting in the ring, doing MMA before they had those silly "Rules" but that doesn't mean that in this game it would be allowed.

But it isnt about what you are ok with or what you are not ok with, it is trying to find a definition of what grappling is and how to make the rules seem cohesive and make them a bit more understandable so there arent these sorts of arguments.

[Squire Ducky McFeelgood]

By the rules, yes, it is grappling. But also by the rules, its an unsafe grapple cause its not controlled or in regards of safety. Like i said before, i think they are too cut and dry, and don't include ideas like shoving/pushing; and i also feel that if your wear selective armor aka non-torso/none full arms, you should still be allowed. And if its just leather, i could careless.

[Leaf of Redwater]

So, if grappling is any body-to-body, then I can check any shield with just my shoulder? I can see this as "unbalancing" which is illegal, technically. That's why I ask.

If you take out the "unbalancing" wording, it might be a step in a direction that I'd like, though. And it would clear a lot of these arguments up.

As for johnny no-shirt; It seems that you could not check, you could not push, you definitely couldn't grab and twist, but you'd have to kill with a weapon. Less awesome than "I shoved that guy (and the artifact) off a cliff!", but it gets the job done.

[Halbrust]

So, if grappling is any body-to-body, then I can check any shield with just my shoulder? [snip]

Yes!

[Drunken Bob (For Congress)]

So, if grappling is any body-to-body, then I can check any shield with just my shoulder? [snip]

Yes!

yes, just like a shield check, but in reverse.

[Disirregardlessly hivemind]

I still do not accept that *any* bodily contact is "grappling". What football linemen do to each other is contact, but it's not grappling.

[Alric]

I see this, again, as one of those murky areas (which doesn't have to be a bad thing - murkiness is ok, so long as the game still works, people have fun, and no one gets hurt; I don't want a lucid but 90 page rulebook). If someone not wearing armor body checks me while I'm in armor, I might grab onto him as he hits me. I feel like this is fair, as he started the contact and I was just responding. But if someone in armor body checked me (and his armor didn't injure me), I don't think I'd feel like he broke the grappling rules; he didn't force me to grapple, I can get away if I want to.

[Whisper Moonson]

But can you get away from the initial, forceful, armored contact? That's the worry.

I agree that shoving and body checking is not grappling, but I think for purposes of our game we should count it as such. I just see near identical levels of risk between grappling in armor and body checking in armor. Plus, it would clear up a lot of those fuzzy zones. No deliberate body contact if you're in armor, unless someone starts it with you. Shove, check, grab - it's on. Otherwise, don't do it. Nice and simple. Safe and playable.

And maybe bring back the ability of armored fighters to start grapples with each other. I never was clear on why that went away. Seemed more like a worry thing than an incident thing.

[Frothgar]

I agree with Whisper's above words. body to body contact would make for a safe easily definable definition.

I almost always wear at least my bracers, so i dont get much of an oppurtunity to grapple. but i feel it is safe and by the rules to push or check someone with your own shield and to push or check anyones else's carried shield. (while taking into consideration shield size and location). as long as there's a shield between an armoured body and another person im ok with it.

perhaps clarifying grappling as body to body contact and adding a simple addendum of "weapon hafts and shields may be grabbed by armoured fighters, and will not be considered as initiating grapple" would clear up most situations?

Frothgar

[Squire Lizard]

I agree with Whisper's above words. body to body contact would make for a safe easily definable definition.

I almost always wear at least my bracers, so i dont get much of an oppurtunity to grapple. but i feel it is safe and by the rules to push or check someone with your own shield and to push or check anyones else's carried shield. (while taking into consideration shield size and location). as long as there's a shield between an armoured body and another person im ok with it.

perhaps clarifying grappling as body to body contact and adding a simple addendum of "weapon hafts and shields may be grabbed by armoured fighters, and will not be considered as initiating grapple" would clear up most situations?

Frothgar

DING DING DING, I believe this is the winning statement

[Stugos]

For clarification I would state, body to body contact is not to be initiated by anyone with armor.

So long story short, grappling is body to body contact, be it grabbing a person, shoulder checking, or stepping on someones garb to trip them, and is not to be initiated by anyone with armor.

I agree with Whisper's above words. body to body contact would make for a safe easily definable definition.

perhaps clarifying grappling as body to body contact and adding a simple addendum of "weapon hafts and shields may be grabbed by armoured fighters, and will not be considered as initiating grapple" would clear up most situations?

Frothgar

Good luck not initiating grapples with everyone around you in a shield press, especially your team mates.


Armour is 'dagerous' to grapple against because the sharp bits can scratch you.  That's it.  The rigidity will not injure you, even in a shoulder check.  The bony parts of my body, such as my head, shoulders, and elbows, will hurt you much more than rigid armour in a check or grapple.  Shoves and checks are not grapples.  Grabbing someone is a grapple.  It's pretty clearly defined.  In Blackhawk's example, the only grapple is when he grabs the guy's shoulders.