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Author Topic: How the Vets interpret archery rules.  (Read 5783 times)

Judge Dredd

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How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« on: January 21, 2011, 08:55:57 am »
4.5.3 - Archery:

4.5.3.1 - All bows must have a draw weight of 35 pounds or less at 28 inches draw.

4.5.3.2 - Compound (pulley) bows are not allowed.

4.5.3.3 - Crossbows must have a maximum draw weight of 35 lbs with a draw length of 12"

4.5.3.4 - Arrows must always be shot; they can never be used as hand weapons.

4.5.3.5 - To be an archer at an event, a player must bring at least 2 passing arrows to the field.

4.5.3.6 - If an arrow is deflected, even minutely, it is considered to have hit.

4.5.3.6.1 - An arrow must strike with its head to cause a hit.

4.5.3.7 - Once an arrow has hit an object (changed its path) it is harmless. An arrow cannot strike multiple targets.

4.5.3.8 - To better simulate the speed and power of real arrows in flight, the only things which can stop arrows are shields or Dagorhir-legal head armor such as a helmet or coif. Arrows cannot be caught, blocked, deflected, or knocked out of the air by anything else, including hands, feet, weapons, or other equipment. If an arrow is blocked intentionally with anything other than a body part, shield, or head armor, the fighter doing the blocking is dead automatically.

4.5.3.9 - Bows may be used to turn aside thrusts without suffering any damage. However, if a bow is hacked or smashed by a red or blue weapon, the bow is considered broken. A healer may heal a bow.

4.5.3.10 - Archers are allowed to call shots for clarity, i.e., they may call out to let their target know where a hit landed or if the hit was "good," as in the case of a glancing or ricocheting arrow.

4.5.3.11 - If an arrow strikes a limb which has already been hacked or smashed by a blue or red weapon, the arrow is considered to have continued as if the limb were not there, hitting whatever is in its path.

4.5.3.12 - If a weapon accidentally blocks an arrow from hitting a target, the arrow is considered to have hit the target anyway.

4.5.3.13 - If an arrow hits a fighter's hand, that arm is lost (regardless of whether the hand held a weapon or shield).

4.5.3.14 - If an arrow hits a foot which is off the ground, that leg is lost.

4.5.3.15 - Arrows:

4.5.3.15.1 - A draw stop (generally a ring of tape around the shaft) is required to prevent arrows from being drawn more than 28 inches.

4.5.3.15.2 - Arrows may not easily pass (<0.5") through a 2.5" diameter hole. The softer padded face of the arrow must be at least 2.5" wide in all directions. The stiffer structural base foam must be at least 2" in diameter where it meets the open cell face foam.

4.5.3.15.3 - All arrows must contain a penny secured perpendicularly (flat) at the end of the shaft, unless it is an arrow with a golf tube shaft. In this case, a washer slightly larger than the golf tube's rolled edge must be used instead.

4.5.3.15.4 - All arrow striking surfaces must be constructed of open-cell foam.

4.5.3.15.5 - All arrows must have at least two full vanes/fletchings (feathers) and a nock.

4.5.3.15.6 - Only duct (cloth) or strapping tape may be used in arrow construction.

4.5.3.15.7 - All wooden arrows must have their shafts wrapped in tape.

4.5.3.15.8 - There can be no tape on the striking surface of an arrow

4.5.3.15.9 - The head of the arrow must not be able to be moved easily from side to side.

4.5.3.15.10 - In order to avoid confusing golf tube arrows with javelins, no arrow using a golf tube shaft may have a yellow cover.
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Judge Dredd

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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2011, 09:00:22 am »
Most archers (the good ones) shoot, watch, and wait for the person getting hit to react. Here is what the good ones do in specific situations:

1)Fighter looks at the archer like a confused lab.
Archer tells them where they got hit.

2)Fighter ignores hit.
Archer yells "arrow"
Fighter takes hit. or Refer to 1)

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Forkbeard Rex

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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2011, 09:03:53 am »
Seems pretty straight forward to me.
I interpret them to mean:Archery.
What's the question?
Although, I just noticed the crossbow rule. I love it and need to know where I can get a 35 lb crossbow. I have a guy who is willing to buy one and start taking it to events out here in hope of influencing people in "another" game. The rules over there are ready to be fixed where xbows are concerned. We just haven't had anyone willing to buy one to prove their safety. So..
Where do I buy a 35lbx12" xbow?
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Janwin

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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2011, 09:50:37 am »
I have to second Forkbeard's question of...where is the question?

I see you posted the archery rules.  Kudos.

Not sure where you're going with it, though...
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2011, 10:17:42 am »
ill throw a ? up.....can we fix the crossbow rules so they are a valid part of dagorhir?... from my understanding it was due to a misinformed ruling deciding how to measure them ...or a misinforemed writing of the rule.
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Jari Kafghan

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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2011, 10:36:52 am »
Don't feed the troll.

Judge Dredd

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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2011, 11:03:47 am »
4.5.3.10 - Archers are allowed to call shots for clarity, i.e., they may call out to let their target know where a hit landed or if the hit was "good," as in the case of a glancing or ricocheting arrow.

it is this rule that ends up being in contention most often. I thought the veteran archers could let the Dag community know how they interpret it.
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Janwin

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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 12:18:29 pm »
There are a number of interpretations of this specific rule, which have been discussed many times in various threads.

The general consensus, however, seems to be that:

"Archers are allowed to call shots for clarity"
Meaning: If a hit is unclear to the receiving fighter, an archer is permitted to alert the fighter as to where the hit landed.  The receiving fighter IS expected to take the hit as it is called (yes, even if it is wrong).

There is much debate regarding whether or not the fighter should take the hit, with two general camps: one side states that the archer has the final say, and the other side states that the fighter who was hit has the final say.  I, myself, lean towards the archer has the final say.

Reasons for archer:
  Archer can often see the arrow better than the one being hit.
  One being hit often cannot or does not feel the arrow (armor, adrenaline, thinking maybe it was someone bumping into him/her, etc).

Reasons for receiver:
  Archer can't always track their arrow.
  Some archers call shots as they 'wish' they hit, not as they 'actually' hit.

I've found that in the majority of cases, archers call their shots accurately (or as accurately as possible), and that an archer can more often track their arrow than not track their arrow.  It seems to work better if the final say is in the hands of the archer, and has worked that way for many years.

"they may call out to let their target know..."
Archers do not HAVE to call a shot.  Archers MAY call a shot, if they feel it necessary.  This means that even if an archer does not call their shot, you are expected to take the hit.  I've heard arguments from people that they didn't take an arrow hit because the archer didn't call the shot.  BS.


In practicality, I find that myself (and most veteran archers I know) have adopted a policy of calling as few shots as possible.  It's actually easier to just fire another arrow at the guy's head than to get into an argument about where and when the arrow hit.  It's actually more often that I call my shot as -not a hit- than I call it as a hit (ie: someone takes a hit from an arrow that ricocheted off a shield, hit them with the shaft, or I honestly just don't feel hit solidly enough (grazes, eh), and I tell them to keep fighting).

It's also best to go out onto the field under the assumption that your opponent is honorable, will take their hits, and that you should have fun.  Assume the same of the archers that shoot at you.

The rule is in contention, yes, but for the most part there's no reason why it should be.  It's not 'archers' that are the problem with the rules.  It's 'guys with a bow' who hear that archers can call their shots, and then do it on every shot.  And there's only so much we can do about that, beyond trying to teach them the errors of their ways, and sending a big shieldman at them if they don't learn.   ;D
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Janwin of Narnia, Realm of Winterfell

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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2011, 12:35:11 pm »
I agree with Janwin on all points.
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Blackhawk is a troll, this thread is pointless, stop feeding him.

Judge Dredd

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Blackhawk is a troll, this thread is pointless, stop feeding him.
Not trolling Jari, I'll explain this thread to you later.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2011, 01:42:51 pm »
I agree with Janwin on all points.

Ditto - with particular emphasis on the "for clarity" part of the rule. 

At a battle the other weekend I shot into a melee and the arrow tagged near a shieldman's upper arm.  He looked over at me with a "what?" expression, but to be honest I couldn't tell if it was arm or torso.  I quickly said "Your call" and he took the arm.  No worries.  If I'd seen the hit cleanly land on the arm or shoulder I'd have called it 'for clarity.'  As it was the fighter made the choice based on what he felt. 
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Janwin

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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2011, 01:47:20 pm »
Yeah, Kyrax.  I tend to do the same.  If I don't know definitively where the arrow landed, and my target looks to me for clarification, I give them a shrug and let them know to take whatever they felt.

If they take nothing?  Well, it must not have hit since they didn't feel anything and were instead reacting to movement out of the corner of their eye.

And then I shoot them again.   ;)
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2011, 01:47:59 pm »
I agree with Janwin on all points.

Ditto - with particular emphasis on the "for clarity" part of the rule. 

At a battle the other weekend I shot into a melee and the arrow tagged near a shieldman's upper arm.  He looked over at me with a "what?" expression, but to be honest I couldn't tell if it was arm or torso.  I quickly said "Your call" and he took the arm.  No worries.  If I'd seen the hit cleanly land on the arm or shoulder I'd have called it 'for clarity.'  As it was the fighter made the choice based on what he felt.
Yes, and this is why this thread exists!!!
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Alric

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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2011, 01:48:33 pm »
I agree with Janwin as well.

I have personally only received one bad call from an archer in five years of playing. The arrow hit my adams apple (which was armored), but the archer called torso, so I died. I do hear of other people with worse experiences; one fighter who only plays Dag occasionally told me of a time he was fighting, an arrow completely missed him, and the archer insisted that he take it. I've yet to see this happen in person though, so it's either geographically isolated, very uncommon, or I've been lucky and not been on the receiving end.

I often do the 'your call' thing that Kyrax describes myself, when I don't know where my arrow went. I'll only call shots when the target looks confused, or when it was too good a shot for my target not to take (like the arrow that hit Dominus in the back on the Wreckreation Nation tv spot, that he didn't notice because of all the people he was fighting).

One thing I see sometimes is fighters who, when shot, look at the archer and wait for them to tell them where to take the damage. I wonder if some of the accusations of archers calling bad shots comes from this; I don't like telling people where they were hit unless it was really obvious, because most of the time they know better than I do. I much prefer it when people take what they felt, and I'll only call out to them if they took one to the nose and kept on fighting.

Especially at large battles, it's always easier to shoot another arrow than to get in a shouting match from 50 feet away.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2011, 02:32:52 pm »
I'm either getting very forgetful with the post button or someone isn't liking what I'm saying. It's happened a couple of times this week. I really hope it's just me, which is likely.
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Alric

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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2011, 02:42:50 pm »
I checked the logs, and nothing you've posted has been moderated.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2011, 02:51:30 pm »
Yup... I'm loosing it. I must be. Ugh..
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2011, 03:39:59 pm »
Ditto - with particular emphasis on the "for clarity" part of the rule. 

At a battle the other weekend I shot into a melee and the arrow tagged near a shieldman's upper arm.  He looked over at me with a "what?" expression, but to be honest I couldn't tell if it was arm or torso.  I quickly said "Your call" and he took the arm.  No worries.  If I'd seen the hit cleanly land on the arm or shoulder I'd have called it 'for clarity.'  As it was the fighter made the choice based on what he felt.
I'd like to speak on Kyrax's honor as an archer, not that anyone has ever questioned it. Or maybe it's the words he chose to use that impressed me so.

A few weeks ago at the largest event I've ever been to, I busted through a line like a mad man. Got the first kill with a little skill and then got two or three more because of wide eyes at a crazy looking big man coming at them. I may have gotten legged, something stopped my forward progress, and Kyrax was standing a few feet in front of me. He said, and I quote "Halbrust, arrow."

I said thanks as I took my death and walked away. He could have said a thousand different things to let me know he hit me in the torso with an arrow I didn't feel. But he chose words that had no accusation to them and I never thought anything other than Oh, he must have shot me.

There is nothing that irritates me on the field more than having someone say "youre dead". Not only did Kyrax say nothing close to that, he did nothing besides alert me to something I may have missed. He didn't say he shot me, he didn't say where he shot me, he didn't question my (insert blank). He just said "Halbrust, arow".

Thank you Kyrax

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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2011, 04:51:56 pm »
No worries Halbrust, that was a case where your blood was up and you got tagged by an arrow as you charged.  I don't remember who hit you (might have been me, might not), but the arrow hit just about when you got that first guy.  Obviously you had no idea it had happened, hence the gentle call. 

When a case like that happens in a fierce melee and I can't "call" the shot without disrupting everything, you just got to let it go and take the next shot.  It's a game and we all get back up in a few minutes anyway.   
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2011, 06:38:29 pm »
Silk, ive had that problem too. Thought i posted but had not. Who knows....


As for the call for clarity, i've only had one issue and that was when the person made the wrong call. I don't wear armor, so I clearly feel where the shot lands. One time i had someone shoot me from the front. I turned last second and took it in the upper arm, but because of the lateness of my turn, they taught it had landed torso. They called it, and i refused cause i knew where it had hit, and kept running with a pierced arm. WE got into a huge argument over it and eventually the herald said i was right, but that i should still just have taken death to avoid the huge fight killing argument, and that likely it landed in the gray area in-between. 

Now to sidenote that, we do alot of crossover, and in that other game, Archers actually call their shots AS hits, even if they are wrong, so that maybe where they were coming from.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2011, 07:18:09 pm »
Yup... I'm loosing it. I must be. Ugh..

That was a most excellent pun...
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 08:21:58 pm »
Healers can HEAL bows?
This is explained by praying for the carpenter to ductape the bow together.

If a healer can heal bows, can they heal armor?

Never used a healer before, so I am ignorant on the rules and wonder why we still have them.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 08:51:51 pm »
Healers can HEAL bows?
This is explained by praying for the carpenter to ductape the bow together.

If a healer can heal bows, can they heal armor?

Never used a healer before, so I am ignorant on the rules and wonder why we still have them.

Yes and Yes.  Fight in a classic woods battle stretched over hundreds of acres.  Then when you lose a leg you'll realize why Healers are a good idea.  However, they're kind of silly in field battles or rez and run battles. 

Now back on topic - epic archery talks!

Like how Whisper is the most awesome archer ever.  He fired an arrow in Guilder and it hit someone in the Aratari lands.   ;D
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 09:09:01 pm »
Several times. Yep. There are witnesses, too.  ;D

Everyone here is wise. Especially Janwin. At least he got there first. :)

I would like to see the crossbow rule fixed. 35x12 is a good start, but nobody makes crossbows that size. A general 450 ip rule would be much better.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2011, 09:27:56 pm »
Silk, ive had that problem too. Thought i posted but had not. Who knows....


As for the call for clarity, i've only had one issue and that was when the person made the wrong call. I don't wear armor, so I clearly feel where the shot lands. One time i had someone shoot me from the front. I turned last second and took it in the upper arm, but because of the lateness of my turn, they taught it had landed torso. They called it, and i refused cause i knew where it had hit, and kept running with a pierced arm. WE got into a huge argument over it and eventually the herald said i was right, but that i should still just have taken death to avoid the huge fight killing argument, and that likely it landed in the gray area in-between. 

Now to sidenote that, we do alot of crossover, and in that other game, Archers actually call their shots AS hits, even if they are wrong, so that maybe where they were coming from.

I have always understood the Dag rule to mean that, if the archers says you were hit, then you take the hit even if you know they got it wrong.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2011, 09:30:56 pm »
WAIT!!! I need that clarified.

As i understand it, i take what i feel. That is the nature behind taking hits. Calls for clarity are to inform people that it was an arrow hit and not something else/a bump from a buddy. If i feel the hit, and take that hit as piercing from an arrow, i don't really need their clarity on it.

It the same when i throw a jav, i call out "Jav" or "Point" to signify if the hit landed good. If its shaft, i yell "Shaft". If the seem confuse, i'll call the hit.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 09:35:31 pm by Squire Ducky McFeelgood »
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2011, 09:31:23 pm »
for clairty is the rule absolute power is the common practice  i have gotten into many a fight with archers, for instance i wear a long skirt and arrows have hit straight thru the middle and archers have called leg i first politley tell them garb and when i get an argument i just ignore them ...as i do rhinohiders and d bags ...
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2011, 09:41:57 pm »
WAIT!!! I need that clarified.

As i understand it, i take what i feel. That is the nature behind taking hits. Calls for clarity are to inform people that it was an arrow hit and not something else/a bump from a buddy. If i feel the hit, and take that hit as piercing from an arrow, i don't really need their clarity on it.

It the same when i throw a jav, i call out "Jav" or "Point" to signify if the hit landed good. If its shaft, i yell "Shaft". If the seem confuse, i'll call the hit.

This is how I have understood it and what seems logical to me. If I know where it hit me, that's what I take (no matter what the archer says). If I'm unsure, I will look to the archer for clarity.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2011, 10:04:13 pm »
Huh, I thought when this was last brought up last winter the concensus was that the call was for clarity but that the archers DO NOT have the power of a herald to call shots.
If fighters can't call their shots, why can archers? I understand if clarification is needed but why are we giving these people the power of a herald? That right there causes MANY issues in this game. Just the same as you STILL NEED to take a shot by your honor if it hits you and the archer calls nothing.
As an archer I REALLY try to make good calls and ALWAYS give the person getting hit the benefit of the doubt and if it hits a gray area I will call the lesser of the target areas... Why? Because I can just shoot them again and this time I will try HARDER to hit the face :D
As Reggie stated I see quite a few archers make bad calls all the time at big events. I really can't count all the times I have had shots hit the face mask of my helm and then the archer calls dead... Or hits the baggy part of my hakama around the leg and call leg... People WILL fudge the call, it's human nature and honestly I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that. People are **** heads. Just because some of the folks here don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, alot.

Oh, and if you couldn't tell, this is tongue in cheek and meant to be a devil's advocate statement ;)
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2011, 10:19:27 pm »
This disagreement always arises when this question is broached, and I think this is what Blackhawk was wanting to bring out. I don't know if there's a consensus on what the rule means; I know that the older veterans from out east seem to agree with the interpretation I gave about (that's where I learned it), but there is a lot of disagreement.

Here's my view:

'Archers are allowed to call shots for clarity.'

In general, each fighter is responsible for taking shots as they feel them. Any fighter is allowed to say 'I thought I hit you on the leg just now,' if they want, and their opponents don't have to listen to them because you take what you feel on your own honor. When people call 'javelin,' they aren't saying that they hit the fighter, they're just clarifying what the thing that came from behind was. We don't need a rule allowing archers to clarify what they thought they saw; people do this normally all the time.

The fact that we have a rule designating a specific case where calling shots is allowed indicates that archers' calls are different from the normal, polite calls of 'red' or 'javelin' that nobody has to listen to; it singles this out as a special case.

The line 'for clarity' indicates the purpose of the call, telling archers why they are allowed to call their shots. This means that archers do not have to call their shots for them to count (I have met fighters who thought that shots did have to be called, and who will blow off clear and obvious shots that are not called - this line is in the rules for them). It means that archers needn't call shots when the shots were already clear (which is good, because overzealous calling can lead to more archer errors, and it's smoother playing if people take what they feel). In fact, I would go so far as to say that archers should only call their shots when the person they hit doesn't notice they were hit at all (if you shoot someone in the torso and they take arm, whatever, shoot them again). None of this changes that the archers can still call their shots, however.

It all boils down to what you think it means to 'call a shot.' I feel that the natural reading is that the archer gets to say where the arrow landed. And if the archer is allowed to say where a shot landed and you disagree, this rule explains who has the final word. Sometimes (but rarely) this sucks when an archer calls something wrong. In that case, let them know when the battle's over, or talk to a herald and ask him to suggest to the archer that he be more careful about calling his shots. I feel that arguing with the archer, however, is just like blowing off a clear shot; the rules explain who gets to call where an arrow lands, and we're honor bound to follow that call.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2011, 01:33:06 am »
I have been to several battles where archers have called their shots and they were freakin cheaters. There was a case where an archer called the shot BEFORE they loosed the arrow. Another where the shaft of the arrow bounced off his arm and the arrow landed 15 ft behind him, still called dead. I have seen arrows get bounce off of robes and pants and the shot is still called.

These experiences have made me think most archers are sketchy. I have met a few who were honest. When I get hit with an arrow, I take it if it hits me. If it doesnt, i'll tell you it didnt hit me and continue to fight. I have told some archers that it missed and they were like "Ok dude, no problem." I think this is how it should be. I dont see how Alric has only had one bad shot call in 5 years, I wish that was the case for me.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2011, 09:17:30 am »
I dont think that rule gives archers the ability to call their shots as hits as the final say. I think Heralds and the participant being hit still hold that power.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2011, 09:47:26 am »
I've heard the rule explained as archers have the right to clarify shot as opposed to call them. Basically, when in doubt, follow what the archer says, if the archer is clearly wrong, then take what you felt.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2011, 01:13:59 pm »
Archers can call their shots. They are given this power for odd cases like the famous "Dominus -arrow!" video clip and the occasional hit to a weapon or bowstring that gets between arrow and target. The rest of the time, a decent archer will keep their mouths shut or just say "arrow," or "no good." The way I read the rule, you should take a shot the way you feel it and take it immediately so there's no confusion, and if an archer tells you you've been shot by something you didn't notice, take the call. Complain later.

There are abuses of this rule on both sides of the bow. As has been noted, some archers think they can call any damn thing they want. This is absolutely not so. I'd say that any call made before the arrow hits is null and void. Perceived bad calls should be reported to the nearest herald. Heralds noticing a pattern of bad calls should pull the archer from the field. By the same token, there are people who won't take a shot unless it's called. That's BS. You take what you feel. If you do that, you're far less likely to receive a bad call. And the heralds might end up pulling you from the field, too.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2011, 01:54:37 pm »
so which one super cedes the other. Take what you feel... or the call the archer makes?
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2011, 02:55:09 pm »
If it comes right down to it, it's the archer's call. In 99.9% of cases, it should never have to come to that. Just take what you feel. Heralds still have the power to pull bad archers off the field and give them a bit of education. The only time an archer should make a call is when their shot wasn't noticed ("Arrow!") or if they need to call back a shot ("No good!"). When they make that call, take the shot as called. If it was clearly a bad call, take it anyway and tell a herald.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2011, 04:21:42 pm »
I agree with whisper. It's really more fun for everyone if you just take what you feel. Whenever I arch, I almost never call a shot and if I do its mainly cause it was a bad shot. There is really no point in an archer making bogus calls when you can just shoot another arrow instead of argue. Isn't the point of dag to have a good time and not be all competitive?
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2011, 09:31:44 pm »
So i need a full consensus on this, cause its one of those things that make us different from Bele and one of the things i was going to cover in my rules class. Is how Whisper has told me the way the rest of you feel?

Do archers call their shots as hits and thus the fighter has to take that no matter what, or do the clarify their shots in the case of confusion? Cause what that each actually entail is very different, and one of those I need to know.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 09:33:41 pm by Squire Ducky McFeelgood »
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2011, 11:03:09 pm »
They call them and you take what they call.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2011, 12:00:00 pm »
After checking the rules, it appears my sources were mistaken. rule 4.5.3.10 says "Archers are allowed to call shots for clarity". I heard it misquoted as "clarify shots", which would explain my earlier mistake.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2011, 12:32:26 pm »
it needs to be rewritten to either

"Archers are allowed to call shots. This is to be used only to clarify when those hit by the arrows are confused or distracted."

or

Archers are encouraged to call their shots to those that are confused or distracted"

i like the 2nd one for the obvious not allowing archers to be heralds/gods
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2011, 01:03:08 pm »
Personally I don't understand why this is such a big deal; it all comes down to playing honorably... A) trusting that the archer is honest enough to state where it actually hit, and B) trusting the guy that got hit is honest enough to actually take the shot where it landed (if confusion, see A) ...I wish more people would play like that </my $.02>


I'm either getting very forgetful with the post button or someone isn't liking what I'm saying. It's happened a couple of times this week. I really hope it's just me, which is likely.

Silk, just so you don't feel crazy: I think the post you were thinking of is in the "Confessions" thread ... I forget which sub-forum it was under... I recently read through that thread and perhaps that was the post you thought you put in this thread. I'm playing with the idea of learning to arch, so archery postings are going on mental post-it notes
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2011, 01:33:47 pm »
So yeah, you guys need to reword the rules then if archers call their shots as hits. Cause that's not how I've had it taught to me by people like Twinkle, or played it.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2011, 02:17:07 pm »
They call them and you take what they call.

Yeah, see, this is never how I was taught, nor how I taught it.  This is the "archers are gods/heralds" crap that people always bitch about.  Most archers have just adopted the "shoot them again" policy, wherein if their target did not take the shot, regardless of a call made, we fire another shot at them.  Taking hits has always been an honor system, and I see no reason to give archers the power to override that system.  "May call for clarity" is in there in the event that the person is wearing armor and/or didn't feel the hit.  It does not give the archers the final say.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2011, 04:54:53 pm »
Most archers have just adopted the "shoot them again" policy, wherein if their target did not take the shot, regardless of a call made, we fire another shot at them. 

Yeah this policy is what I always do and insures fairness. It won't make archers god/herald like and at the same time, people can stop bitching that archers have the final say in hits and can lie or cheat about it...
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2011, 08:53:42 pm »
Archers are allowed to call shots... for clarity. "For clarity" is a recent addition that was put there to try to make it clear that archers aren't supposed to go around playing god of smiting. That's something that vet archers already know, but it's good for new fighters who are far away from vets to be able to read it in the MoA. Could it be phrased better? Certainly. But I think it's important that the ability to call shots remain with the archer. There are times when the target just doesn't notice or maybe feels something but doesn't know what it was. "Arrow" lets them know. So how about this:

Archers are allowed to call their shots, but should only do so for clarity when the target is confused or didn't notice the hit, or to call back a hit from a dead arrow, such as one that glanced off a shield.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2011, 08:58:50 pm »
perhaps change the "should" to "can" and i am all for it
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2011, 07:18:15 am »
No, Fiyera , I definitely had a separate rant for this thread. Sort of along the lines of the berating I gave the Sunday Field at Rocktoberfest. Were you there for that? Anyway, I included an apology to Tauron, as I don't think he knew what he was in for when I asked for permission to address the field.

I was just so pissed off at EVERYBODY for citing the rules wrong, or in the wrong spirit or making things up!

So... a question brought up by Reggie's comment. I will re-read through the rules to check, but there used to be a thing about garb counting as a hit, thus if an arrow hits your skirt it CAN count as a hit. Gray covered it in the archery classes some time back and the idea that he tried to plant was something like "If I can clearly see where your legs are and I clearly shot between them I SHOULDN'T call that a hit, but If it isn't clear where your legs are and I hit you in the skirt it could have hit you in the leg and I COULD call that shot."

Kyrax, do you recall being at any of those Rag archery classes where Gray said this? I'm trying to think of anyone else that was there, and there were probably a bunch of you who were, I just didn't know who you all were then.
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Re: How the Vets interpret archery rules.
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2011, 07:25:18 am »
Oh... oops. Sorry, then. I can't say I was there for that, I only fought on the bridge battle on Saturday.
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