Topic: RWC Rule Proposal (Read 5764 times)

Aiden · « **on:** January 24, 2011, 11:08:23 am »

Proposal:
Delete the existing portion of the rules covering healing poems.

Reason:
The healing poems are rarely used. When they are used, they generally are within specific healer scenarios. When healing rules are used in normal battles, confusion occurs. New members or chapters who read the rules are often mistaken about the use of healers, they often believe every battle (unless explicitly forbidden) allows for healing.

Advantages of Deleting Healing Rules:
No one is confused when they show up expecting to be a healer and aren't allowed to do so.
No one is confused when they see wounded fighters back to full-health.
We look less like a magic, tappy larp.

I am NOT advocating that we forbid healing. What I am advocating is the relegation of an arcane rule to the realm of scenario-specific ideas (like in the old Handbook that had rules for Necromancer battles and mounted knight battles and dragon battles).

So what does this esteemed sliver of the Dagorhir community feel about this proposal?

Judge Dredd · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2011, 11:12:40 am »

Fine by me. Dump them. You are correct, they are totally scenario specific now.

Oisín Leathshúileach · « **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2011, 11:13:54 am »

Or we could actually, you know, let people use them in other scenarios? It's not like it hurts anything.

Milo Baines · « **Reply #3 on:** January 24, 2011, 11:20:44 am »

Quote from: Aiden on January 24, 2011, 11:08:23 am

Proposal:
Delete the existing portion of the rules covering healing poems.

Reason:
The healing poems are rarely used. When they are used, they generally are within specific healer scenarios. When healing rules are used in normal battles, confusion occurs. New members or chapters who read the rules are often mistaken about the use of healers, they often believe every battle (unless explicitly forbidden) allows for healing.

Advantages of Deleting Healing Rules:
No one is confused when they show up expecting to be a healer and aren't allowed to do so.

what? why wouldn't they be allowed to use their healing poem in every battle...

Janwin · « **Reply #4 on:** January 24, 2011, 11:29:43 am »

Quote from: Milo Baines on January 24, 2011, 11:20:44 am

what? why wouldn't they be allowed to use their healing poem in every battle...

Agreed. Winterfell allows healers in just about every battle. It's part of the rules, and thus they are allowed.

Seiichirô · « **Reply #5 on:** January 24, 2011, 11:42:18 am »

Quote

No one is confused when they show up expecting to be a healer and aren't allowed to do so.
No one is confused when they see wounded fighters back to full-health.

Issue here being unfamiliarity with the MoA. Same can be argued for armor rules. Resolved by pointing the relevant rules in the MoA.

Quote

We look less like a magic, tappy larp.

Subjective reason and criteria. Not a strong argument, in my opinion.

Athron · « **Reply #6 on:** January 24, 2011, 11:42:38 am »

Prediction if taken to RWC vote:

20% for leaving them in, 40% for axing them, 40% of chapters saying "what, we have healing in our rules?"

Hundrsut · « **Reply #7 on:** January 24, 2011, 11:54:37 am »

i am excited to be healing this next season ...and the one after .....it can add a roleplaying element, yes larp ....this is a larp....plus gives those who have no interest in fighting a route to be on the field / help their friends.

Forgive me if this is wrong but do you just hate the fact of being in a larp? Removing healing does not make us less larpy. Have you ever had 1 problem when healing has been allowed in a battle?

"I dont like this so lets ban it" rarley works. Your reasoning is weak and very subjective.

Lady Krystal · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2011, 11:59:09 am »

Healing has actually become a fairly decent sized portion of the events we're holding out here in the Midwest. So long as they follow the rules on length and are made aware at the start of battle (heralds usually check poems by request at weapons check) then they're good to go.

Mordor stomped over folks in a unit battle last War with several members rockin' out a healing poem. It was brutal.

That said, I could imagine it likely passing anyway. As a general rule we don't get many folks out repping the midwest to Ragnarok, so their votes would be null anyhow.

Halbrust · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2011, 12:05:48 pm »

Aiden, I've been saying the same thing for a while. I don't make it out to Rag though, so I just say it locally.

Are you actually going to officially present this at Rag this year?
If so, I will push my realm leaders to vote in favor of this.

Braxton Kai · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2011, 12:20:33 pm »

I say keep them in.

They are in the rules for a reason and I believe that they were added for more of a role-play element that Dag probably had more of years ago.

It's sort of awkward they are "scenario specific" now, which to me doesn't make any sense. It's like making faces and giggling at people showing up in armor to your event, when clearly armor is only allowed in specific scenarios.

Granted its all up to the heralds and those hosting events.

hivemind · « **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2011, 12:26:27 pm »

Winterfell would vote no on this.

Syr Olaf · « **Reply #12 on:** January 24, 2011, 12:28:19 pm »

Ok look at it this way. It is not necessary to keep in the rules. It does not mean that chapters or Rag head herald can not make them part of the battle. We are just saying that 90% of the time no use them. The res battles are not in the rules but we allow them. Its part of a clean up of the rules

Sveinn Shieldsbane · « **Reply #13 on:** January 24, 2011, 12:31:04 pm »

If it ain't broken. Don't fix it.

Judge Dredd · « **Reply #14 on:** January 24, 2011, 12:33:25 pm »

To be honest I incorrectly assumed that no one (and I mean, no one) was using healing at events. That's what I get for mainly staying on the east coast. I have not been farther west than Indiana for the Olympics.

That said, I don't see a reason to dump the rules. I don't see healing as too larpy, I look at it as bandaging or repairing, and thus, not magical. If no one was playing by these rules, I would say get rid of them. Since we do have realms using them, better to keep them so they are more uniform.

Hundrsut · « **Reply #15 on:** January 24, 2011, 12:34:44 pm »

its in the rules so we have a widespread understanding of a rule/game feature that is wide spread. Why get rid of something that people enjoy? It looks to be a case of "you" dont like it. Then dont allow it at "your" events. As far as a cleaning of the rules, no this is a destruction of a rule. There are many many rules that need to be cleaned up. Healing is easy to understand, easy to enforce, and easy to disallow if youd rather not have it at an event. Dagorhir allows people to be what they like , why limit that?

Seiichirô · « **Reply #16 on:** January 24, 2011, 12:35:24 pm »

If the rules are in place, then using healers, even if just in scenario specific instances, will result in less confusion because people will already have read about it in the rules (in theory). If they are removed from the rules, the healer rules will have to be covered every time healers are part of a scenario.

I say just leave them in unless there's another handbook in the works for scenario issues like siege engines and special items (relics, magical items, etc).

Seiichirô · « **Reply #17 on:** January 24, 2011, 12:39:20 pm »

Regarding the "larpy" aspect, that's just to establish a time that "healing" is to take so it's not like a tap-and-I'm-back thing. How healing takes place can just as easily be someone counting to the appropriate number while simulating bandaging someone up.

Alric · « **Reply #18 on:** January 24, 2011, 12:48:23 pm »

I've used healing poems on a semi-frequent basis for the past two years, and I would hate to see them removed from the rules. They're wonderful in woods battles, naturally - at both Dogs of War and the Pentwyvern Harvest Feast woods battle it was very helpful to be able to stop in the woods and heal a teammate's wounded leg so he no longer had to be stranded in the woods.

But it's not just good in woods battles. I healed my team's king in a king battle at the Peloponeasean War last summer in Angaron. Kneefers healed me at Rag 24. I healed a teammate durring a lull in the fighting at Drentha's 2009 Christmas battle. And I could go on. It's not an unused or ignored part of the rules, though it's not something you notice people using very often.

If you're worried about the magic elements of healing, carry a bag of linen strips with you and wrap up the person's wounds as you're healing them. I've been meaning to do this for some time now, but keep forgetting to put it together.

Kyrax the Hobbled · « **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2011, 01:24:31 pm »

I'd lean against removing the healing poem section from the rules. But would support adding a comment to clarify that they're scenario specific in usage. Clearly some chapters use them a lot more than others.

Hiram the Incredible · « **Reply #20 on:** January 24, 2011, 01:25:33 pm »

just because a rule allows something and is rarely used doesn't mean get rid of it, what are you all on the lean management plan? leave it alone!

Squire Ducky McFeelgood · « **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2011, 01:50:02 pm »

I'd leave it alone. I like the healing rules, and have never noticed an issue in why they would need to be deleted.

Hiram the Incredible · « **Reply #22 on:** January 24, 2011, 01:54:04 pm »

I feel the same way about a lot of the rules people want to change, delete, re-work, or whatever. I see those who try are just trying to work advantages into the system, which in reality theres only so much dicking around with the rules before it becomes friggin ridiculous.

Askarus Space Beard · « **Reply #23 on:** January 24, 2011, 02:57:18 pm »

The more we remove the lighter the server is, in case people have to lift it.

Hiram the Incredible · « **Reply #24 on:** January 24, 2011, 03:09:26 pm »

Quote from: Askarus of Sparta on January 24, 2011, 02:57:18 pm

The more we remove the lighter the server is, in case people have to lift it.

smarta$$ haha

Syr Olaf · « **Reply #25 on:** January 24, 2011, 03:58:52 pm »

How about :

6.10 - Healing is set fourth by the herald and the event coordinators based on the battles such as and not limited to healing poems, resurrection points, heralds and ect. All guide lines will be verbally given before every battle.

Hundrsut · « **Reply #26 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:03:19 pm »

or keep it the way it is

Squire Lizard · « **Reply #27 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:05:00 pm »

But WHY remove them? What are the crucial arguments for this change? Is it really that much of an issue? I will reiterate the fact that healing is used quite a bit further west. We allow it and ENCOURAGE IT here in Mordor and also the unit Army of Mordor pushes that our higher ups have a healing poem memorized... See Krystal's statement above...
I just don't see how removing this rule will somehow fix things for us, or make the game easier to learn or more streamlined.
I also don't see where in the rules it states that healing is scenario specific. It's a part of the rules and get's used, albeit not in a majority by the Dag population, so why are we considering this? Ichiro brought up a valid point of having to reteach everyone about the healing rules before a scenario that involves it, and at major events this will go by SO FAST...

/sarcasm
Rules cleanup got ya bored?

Syr Olaf · « **Reply #28 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:16:56 pm »

Keep in mind that these rules are only for Ragnarok Only. I can tell you that I do not remember using a healing poem at Rag in the last 14 years. Thats why is looked upon as useless rule. I know that many chapters use it but also have other rule changes for their chapter that do not reflect in Ragnarok.

Milo Baines · « **Reply #29 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:20:22 pm »

Quote from: Syr Olaf on January 24, 2011, 04:16:56 pm

Keep in mind that these rules are only for Ragnarok...

no...no they are not and i'm sick of hearing that they are...

Seiichirô · « **Reply #30 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:21:00 pm »

I was healed at this past Rag, but it may not have been at an official battle (Siege of Jerusalem with the Templars).

While, not Ragnarok, I do see more healing happening at Badon and Gates if that's indicative of any trends.

Hundrsut · « **Reply #31 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:27:58 pm »

quarterstaffs are used less than healing ...so lets take the rule out and make them event specific ...

lets just enforce the rules we have instead of getting rid of rules "you" deem not important

Alric · « **Reply #32 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:33:21 pm »

Quote from: Syr Olaf on January 24, 2011, 04:16:56 pm

Keep in mind that these rules are only for Ragnarok Only. I can tell you that I do not remember using a healing poem at Rag in the last 14 years. Thats why is looked upon as useless rule. I know that many chapters use it but also have other rule changes for their chapter that do not reflect in Ragnarok.

I was healed at Rag 24. It's very useful in the fighting on the sidelines, if not in the main shieldwall.

I, like Ichiro, feel like there might be a trend happening here, where healing is starting to reappear at many of the smaller events and slowly creep back into the mainstream. I don't know if this is the case or not.

I don't know if this proposal could pass RWC or not - I suspect Athron has the breakdown right in his sarcastic 40/20/40 split between yeas/nays/wtf? above. But there are a number of people posting in this thread from all across the country and from many chapters who have been upset at the idea of removing these rules. As they currently aren't hurting anyone, and as many people are enjoying this part of Dagorhir (which, admittedly, the majority of Dag participants don't focus on), I don't see why we should strike them from the rule book. It would be different if a few people were having fun with a part of the rules that was spoiling everyone else's enjoyment of Dagorhir, but that's not the case here.

Syr Olaf · « **Reply #33 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:39:34 pm »

Quote from: nooneusesmydagname on January 24, 2011, 04:27:58 pm

quarterstaffs are used less than healing ...so lets take the rule out and make them event specific ...

lets just enforce the rules we have instead of getting rid of rules "you" deem not important

I am up for that as well. I would not propose the to remove healing but if it comes up I would vote have it removed. I have bigger fish to fry in the rules clean up. Keep in mind that RAG War council only votes on rules that are for Rag rules. If the other events choose to use those then that is up to those who are running that event. I can't remember the event that use single stab through leather. Thats not in the rules but they choose to add that for the national event they were running.

Milo Baines · « **Reply #34 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:41:51 pm »

Quote from: Syr Olaf on January 24, 2011, 04:39:34 pm

Keep in mind that RAG War council only votes on rules that are for Rag

again, no they don't...and if they did then every single rules debate we've ever had is null and void

Alric · « **Reply #35 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:53:08 pm »

While any chapter can modify the rules locally, removing healing at RWC would effectively end it, as I doubt that many chapters would care to preserve them. People follow the flow of RWC, because that makes visiting local chapters easier. So this is very much a move to eliminate healing rules everywhere, not just at one event. As most people don't care about the healing rules, I can see this passing, but again I feel that that's hard luck for the sizeable minority who do enjoy these rules, and whose enjoyment isn't currently costing anyone anything.

Syr Olaf · « **Reply #36 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:56:59 pm »

I will not argue this point again when people can read more arguements like this in very informative post by milo.... please see http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=19325.0

Whisper Moonson · « **Reply #37 on:** January 24, 2011, 05:36:17 pm »

Keep healing in the rules. Even at Ragnarok, there are scenarios that involve healing. It's easier to leave a thoroughly play tested rule in the MoA even if it's rarely used than it is to have make up something every time you want healing in a scenario. I harms nothing by being there, it serves its purpose well when needed, and it can be ignored when it's not needed.

Drakmor · « **Reply #38 on:** January 24, 2011, 05:42:19 pm »

Quote from: Janwin on January 24, 2011, 11:29:43 am

Quote from: Milo Baines on January 24, 2011, 11:20:44 am
what? why wouldn't they be allowed to use their healing poem in every battle...

Agreed. Winterfell allows healers in just about every battle. It's part of the rules, and thus they are allowed.

Yeah, there's two guys I can think of off the top of my head here. One who has one on the back of his shield, and one who made a "book" rock with a spell on that. Its arcane, but some people love this, and those who do become healers are generally great parts of teams.

Judge Dredd · « **Reply #39 on:** January 24, 2011, 05:50:24 pm »

Damn!
Reading this thread makes me think it would be down right mean to remove them. I had no clue this many people used healing.

Kyrax the Hobbled · « **Reply #40 on:** January 24, 2011, 06:03:54 pm »

Quote from: Blackhawk the Apollyon on January 24, 2011, 05:50:24 pm

Damn!
Reading this thread makes me think it would be down right mean to remove them. I had no clue this many people used healing.

Ditto. Which is a good example of what these forums should be used for, to allow us to communicate not just rules interpretations but the ways that we play the game.

Squire Lizard · « **Reply #41 on:** January 24, 2011, 06:06:23 pm »

Yeah well Dagorhir isn't just on the east coast, it DOES happen in other parts of the country. People do find enjoyment in other parts of this game that we somtimes do not.
I also agree with Milo that when the whole "Our rules only apply at Rag" statement comes about I can't help but roll my eyes. It just seems like a copout for an argument.

Alric · « **Reply #42 on:** January 24, 2011, 06:28:36 pm »

This isn't an east / west thing. There are people from the east and west who voiced support for healing, and Aidan (the OP) is from the south.

Milo Baines · « **Reply #43 on:** January 24, 2011, 06:42:34 pm »

Quote from: Alric on January 24, 2011, 06:28:36 pm

...and Aidan (the OP) is from the south.

it's peevish, but south carolina is not in the south it's in the east...

anyways, i'm still confused as to why anyone would assume you couldn't use a healing poem in ANY battle...

Hundrsut · « **Reply #44 on:** January 24, 2011, 06:49:28 pm »

i am confused by that myself

Judge Dredd · « **Reply #45 on:** January 24, 2011, 06:50:58 pm »

Quote from: Milo Baines on January 24, 2011, 06:42:34 pm

Quote from: Alric on January 24, 2011, 06:28:36 pm
...and Aidan (the OP) is from the south.

it's peevish, but south carolina is not in the south it's in the east...

anyways, i'm still confused as to why anyone would assume you couldn't use a healing poem in ANY battle...

It's no different than any realm playtesting any rule. If healing is not allowed, you don't heal. I wouldn't go around blowing off single green shots through armor in a realm that has that as it's house rule either. It's how it's done.

Milo Baines · « **Reply #46 on:** January 24, 2011, 07:05:50 pm »

Quote from: Blackhawk the Apollyon on January 24, 2011, 06:50:58 pm

It's no different than any realm playtesting any rule. If healing is not allowed, you don't heal. I wouldn't go around blowing off single green shots through armor in a realm that has that as it's house rule either. It's how it's done.

i know what you are saying, but what you mean is you wouldn't go to another realm and blow off double green shots because that's a part of the MoA as written...said realm would be required to tell you to take single green through armour as a house rule/playtest...

healing is a part of the MoA, if you don't want healers on your field you have to say something...otherwise i'm going to go by the standard as written...

Hundrsut · « **Reply #47 on:** January 24, 2011, 07:08:23 pm »

i plan on having my healing poem checked at every event and at rag.....hope i get to use it at all of these various things...i like the flavor it shall add and hope this dosnt become an issue

Milo Baines · « **Reply #48 on:** January 24, 2011, 07:12:19 pm »

6.10 - Healing

hide
6.10.1 - The Healer cannot heal her/himself or their own equipment.

6.10.2 - To heal a person, the Healer must be in direct physical contact with the injured person.

6.10.3 - A healer may not heal a person while either are under direct attack. If the Healer or injured person is attacked or distracted, or contact is broken for any reason, the entire Poem of Healing must be read or recited again.

6.10.4 - A Poem of Healing must then be recited or read aloud. The minimum length of a poem of healing is 180 syllables and must be approved at event check-in.

6.10.5 - When the healer completes reading the Healing Poem, all wounds and any items held by the wounded fighter are healed or repaired (i.e. armor, bow, shield, etc.).

just so we can all see the same thing...it never says it's scenario specific or "up to the realm"...

if you have to be told you can use a healing poem whenever you want then we need to start telling folks what kind of damage we're gonna take during this fight for the same reason...

Judge Dredd · « **Reply #49 on:** January 24, 2011, 07:18:09 pm »

Man, why you gotta do me like that? Don't go to someones realm and do anything that is not SOP for that realm, you aint that important, hell, I aint that important. Sorry if my chosen example does not meet your standards. I am not about to start some semantics argument with you (I'll loose).

However, taking your healing poem to check in and having it passed sounds totally legit to me. That is where you would find out if it was cool with the event runners.

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Author Topic: RWC Rule Proposal (Read 5764 times)