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Author Topic: RWC Rule Proposal  (Read 6724 times)

Milo Baines

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2011, 07:23:24 pm »
blackhawk you might be missunderstanding me...of course i'd take it to check in and of course i'd follow any houserules saying i couldn't use it...

and i don't mean for this to be an argument about semanitcs but i DO intend to make a valid case as to why healing poems are allowable as "standard" on any given field unless otherwise noted...

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2011, 07:31:07 pm »
Let me preface this with the fact that I have never been healed by a healing poem nor do I have a healing poem nor have I ever used a healing poem (though I am working on changing that).

Because the healing rules are in the main rulebook that is accepted by the whole of Dagorhir to be the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System as described in the Dagorhir Chapter contract, I assumed that they were kosher in every battle and every realm unless noted otherwise. I am also confused as to how the concept of healing as scenario specific has come up because the only "scenario specific" healing rules I have ever seen has been the medic rules where certain people are given strips of cloth to represent binding wounds.

I like having the healing rules not because it makes the game more "magical" or "fantastical" but because it has the potential to add a level of tactics to many battles, something that I have found sorely lacking in most of the battles I have been a part of. In many field battles, healing isn't necessarily important, but as many have pointed out, do a woods battle and their use becomes obvious. I have never done or seen this done, but I also think that they could add alot to a death tax battle.
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2011, 07:35:10 pm »
Alright Milo, but if you are going to make a stink about something that seems to be working perfectly. Realms that like it, use it, realms that don't, don't. You make a big enough stink and the "healing is archaic, useless, and larpy" people are gonna get their panties in a wad and pull the rules for healing at the next war counsel, and guess what, it'll prolly pass.

This is not a good windmill for tilting. If healing is making a comeback, which I suspect it is, this is absolutely NOT to time to start a ruckus about it.
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stylgar

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2011, 09:11:42 pm »
Keep in mind that RAG War council only votes on rules that are for Rag

again, no they don't...and if they did then every single rules debate we've ever had is null and void
Milo, Olaf, you're both right.
 De jure,the MoA is just for Ragnarok.
De facto , this game has no other rule book as widely used.
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Disirregardlessly hivemind

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2011, 09:14:40 pm »
Milo, Olaf, you're both right.
 De jure,the MoA is just for Ragnarok.
De facto , this game has no other rule book as widely used.

Correct on all three counts.
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Hiram the Incredible

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2011, 09:28:52 pm »
I wish I had a copy of the rule book from every year and a good solid member count by year to see how much other realms other than the Aratari started having an influence on the MOA

Aiden

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2011, 09:45:29 pm »
Hmm, this seems ripe with misunderstanding.
I'm not out to ruin anyone's fun. I do want to delete the healing rules from the rulebook because I have never seen it or heard of it spoken of as part of the status quo of your usual Dagorhir battle. If I am mistaken, I'm sure a vote from the RWC would reveal that.

I don't want to forbid healing, but I did think it would make more sense to have a supplemental rulebook for special Dagorhir scenario rules (Healing Poems, Necromancer, Water, Siege Weapons, Dragons, etc.) Healing would still exist, it's just that we would know what battles it was actually expected on. Now I am completely cool with people disagreeing with me on this because it would change how they want to play Dagorhir, meaning you couldn't heal in any random battle, but I honestly was under the impression that healing wasn't widely used. I'm not some bully trying to make Dagorhir into my own fantasy. I'm just trying to make our game better and this is my proposal. Hate if you want, but please chill guys and don't act like this is the end of Dagorhir as you know it.

And Milo,
How is South Carolina not in the South? Geographically, Culturally, and Historically it's all three. If we're being real specific, we're in the Southeast, but we are the South.  :)
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Malice The almost Banned

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2011, 09:50:22 pm »
honestly i stopped reading the responses to this a quarter of the way through,

it should not be removed, it hurts no one,

i am now working on my healing poem for this weekends Aratari Event
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2011, 09:54:13 pm »
If I am mistaken, I'm sure a vote from the RWC would reveal that.

I actually don't think that it would. The people who like to use healing are a minority, and while there are a lot of us (who've spoken up here at any rate), I doubt that any kind of chapter- or Dagorhir-wide vote would reflect our voice. This isn't something on most people's radar, and I think it would be pretty easy to convince war council that a quick vote to remove was in order without hearing much objection from those there.

The point of those of us objecting to removing the healing rules isn't that Dagorhir as a whole wants or uses them. Rather, it is that some people from all across Dagorhir want and use these rules, and as they aren't hurting anyone by having fun implementing the healing rules, it would be sad if the voice of the majority stamped them out.
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Milo Baines

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2011, 09:58:28 pm »
And Milo,
How is South Carolina not in the South? Geographically, Culturally, and Historically it's all three. If we're being real specific, we're in the Southeast, but we are the South.  :)

historically and culturally yes, it's in the south of (what once was) the 13 colonies but geographically...well, you drop a compass in the center of a map of the US and tell me where south is...

i still haven't heard a decent answer on how and when something that is in the MoA became a scenario specific "playtest" or something...when did everyone begin to think healing wasn't something that could take place in any battle?
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2011, 10:10:09 pm »
It's called lack of exposure. Not many people play as healers anymore, because the big benefit of it fell away along with the dominance of woods battles. As a result, many people have never seen someone heal a fellow fighter on the field, and some probably don't even know the healer rules exist (someone hand 'em a copy of the MoA - they probably have a few other misconceptions as well). So, if you've never seen it, barely heard of it, and it doesn't really register in your mind as part of the game, it's likely that you'll get bent out of shape about it when someone comes along and heals somebody.

But it is part of the default rules, so unless otherwise stated, you should be able to heal. I'd like to see more of it. I'd also like to see more woods battles. That's the real game - woods battles!

<faraway look>
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2011, 10:14:54 pm »
you gettin nostalgic and whispery on us?

Milo Baines

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2011, 08:27:35 am »
Milo, Olaf, you're both right.
 De jure,the MoA is just for Ragnarok.
De facto , this game has no other rule book as widely used.

that sounds an awful lot like corporate doublespeak bullsh!t...
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stylgar

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2011, 09:35:16 am »
In which case you misunderstand me, Milo. While Olaf is technically correct, as a matter of widespread practice, your point wins the day. The MoA is, to borrow another legal phrase, for all intents and purposes, the only rulebook that matters.
Furthermore, I'd argue that any RWC rep who votes intending/pretending  his vote only to effect the field of Cooper's Lake deludes him/herself. The rules as passed by the RWC are the lingual franca of the game.
Case in point: nearly every realm adopted the pointless large-head javelin, despite no evidence that they would improve safety (reduction of mass and strong disciplinary measures against those who put too much stank on them would both help more). It passed Council, and even the realms wise enough to vote nay adopted them nearly universally.
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Milo Baines

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2011, 09:49:46 am »
stylgar, i understood you perfectly...both the terms used and their implications/definitions/practical applications...

i still stand by my statement, it sounds like corporate doublespeak intended to highlight the autonomy of each chapter...which we don't need highlighted since it's a part of the contract each chapter has with DBGA, Inc.

to go back to the OP, healing rules are a part of the MoA, the rulebook for Dagorhir...if a chapter doesn't want to allow healing on their field that's their choice as a chapter, no one is arguing this...but several folks have expressed sentiments that show that healing is considered "playtesting" or "houserules" and NOT a part of the MoA...

regardless, healing is awesome and i have to thank aiden for this thread 'cause it gave our non com something to do and she's excited about it...thanks aiden... ;D
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2011, 09:52:17 am »
Unless there's another set of rules out there, as per the Dagorhir Chapter Contract:

Quote
TERMS OF CONTRACT: RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES
The Chapter will:
...
4. Follow the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, without deletion or alteration, for all events.  Chapters may add rules in addition to those in the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, as long as they do not decrease the safety of the fighting or over-rule the basic tenets of the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System.  (For example, but not limited to: all weapons must be safely padded and checked for safety at every event; hits to the head or neck from hand-held weapons are illegal; etc.)

"Dagorhir Gaming Rules System" (assuming the Dagorhir Manual of Arms), is not just for Ragnarok.  Ragnarok is just where chapters meet to discuss the rules.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 09:54:26 am by Seiichirô »
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stylgar

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2011, 10:26:58 am »
Unless there's another set of rules out there, as per the Dagorhir Chapter Contract:

Quote
TERMS OF CONTRACT: RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES
The Chapter will:
...
4. Follow the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, without deletion or alteration, for all events.  Chapters may add rules in addition to those in the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, as long as they do not decrease the safety of the fighting or over-rule the basic tenets of the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System.  (For example, but not limited to: all weapons must be safely padded and checked for safety at every event; hits to the head or neck from hand-held weapons are illegal; etc.)

"Dagorhir Gaming Rules System" (assuming the Dagorhir Manual of Arms), is not just for Ragnarok.  Ragnarok is just where chapters meet to discuss the rules.
But many of us date back to the old system, wherein the War Council voted on a ruleset called Tournament Rules (which all agreed to apply to all interrealm events), and not all changes got reflected in the MoA, which remained an Aratari document.
Even then, in the days before The Great Hissy-Fit, the Tournament Rules quickly became Da Roolz, because it just makes sense for realms to adopt the rules under which they'd fight others.
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Milo Baines

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2011, 10:29:23 am »
But many of us date back to the old system, wherein the War Council voted on a ruleset called Tournament Rules (which all agreed to apply to all interrealm events), and not all changes got reflected in the MoA, which remained an Aratari document.

those days aren't these days...and i'm actually shocked that you'd try to use that as justification...i had a higher oppinion of you than that stylgar...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 10:32:45 am by Milo Baines »
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2011, 10:55:26 am »
Dammit, boy. I'm agreeing with you. But you only have it right in function, and Olaf still has it right in form.
But this argument has an air of futility around it. I do not see any change coming.
And while "those days ain't these days" in practice, they still are on paper. But since the Chapter Agreement is the document in which that distinction lies, the Council can't change it. And I don't see the DBGA spending lawyer money to address what amounts to a distinction without a difference. In other words, it ain't broke enough to need fixin
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Milo Baines

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #69 on: January 25, 2011, 11:04:02 am »
since the Chapter Agreement is the document in which that distinction lies

the chapter contract makes no distinction about rag vs. the rest of dag...if it does i'd like you to point it out to me...

and for the record, we are NOT in agreement...i don't NOT like the concept that there is two distinct groups in dag...the rag group and everyone else...or the mentality behind the idea that the MoA only applies to rag regardless of what terms you choose to use while saying it. de joure de facto lingua franca be d@mned!
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #70 on: January 25, 2011, 11:23:38 am »
Make healers like Water. No need to be written in MoA but known.
You put them in specific scenerios.
When there is a scenerio where there is water, there is no written rules on rivers, boats, and the great man bridge, but we make rules up for the scenerio. Same should apply for healers.
Anybody who brings a healing poem to an event will be prepared for just in case there is a scenerio with healers.

but does this mean we can bring our own boats for when there are water battles? Probably not. I might just make a greek boat that requires 16 fighters to move it with a capacity of 40. River battle you say? We are rowing up stream!!!
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Milo Baines

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #71 on: January 25, 2011, 11:34:54 am »
"Anybody who brings a healing poem to an event will be prepared for just in case there is a scenerio with healers."

again, why do you feel healing should only be scenario specific?
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #72 on: January 25, 2011, 11:37:04 am »
healing is like arching.....it is always allowed until someone says its not allowed....no need to fight.....
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #73 on: January 25, 2011, 11:49:48 am »
The MoA in fact applies throughout the game. That's the point I attempted to make. To claim that the MoA only applies to Ragnarok is to deny reality.
And nearly everyone that sits on the RWC understands that and votes in the knowledge their votes change (or maintain) the rules of the game at large.

As to the original issue, I think healing should remain in the rules. Since the rules call for them, I favor their wider use. But, I love proper CTF woods battles.  I also love disturbing patient/healer contact with my spear haft at about syllable 170 in field battles. Just to be annoying.
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2011, 12:04:37 pm »
"Anybody who brings a healing poem to an event will be prepared for just in case there is a scenerio with healers."

again, why do you feel healing should only be scenario specific?

I have never been to an event that had healing, never been to practice where Healing was ever used, and I have never seen Healing..... ever.

If at events are known for healing, then it is done. At Rag they list out the scenerios and lets say there is a scenerio that has 4 teams, each with a king, the fight is VIP style and there are 4 Healers per kindom, etc. Then we know there is a scenerio with healers. All the scenerios at Rag are described long before the event even starts.
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #75 on: January 25, 2011, 12:19:23 pm »
"Anybody who brings a healing poem to an event will be prepared for just in case there is a scenerio with healers."

again, why do you feel healing should only be scenario specific?

I have never been to an event that had healing, never been to practice where Healing was ever used, and I have never seen Healing..... ever.

If at events are known for healing, then it is done. At Rag they list out the scenerios and lets say there is a scenerio that has 4 teams, each with a king, the fight is VIP style and there are 4 Healers per kindom, etc. Then we know there is a scenerio with healers. All the scenerios at Rag are described long before the event even starts.

if they dont say healing isnt allowed , AND YOU GET YOUR POEM CHECKED, then healing is allowed. You may have had it at events and just not seen it, its not widespread but it is beloved by those who do it. adds to the game isnt complicated lets those who cant/wont fight help and has never been a problem.

this thread was started as a means to clean the moa. this is not cleaning. I believe it has been shown that people would like to keep it in the rules. 
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #76 on: January 25, 2011, 06:16:29 pm »
i just want to clarify something for myself...

we you guys say "healing" you do mean of an injured fighter right? not a dead one, and injured one...

just checking...
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2011, 06:22:31 pm »
Does it matter?

Also, if someone wanted to come on my field and be a healer i would be ok with it as long as they could fight as well as heal.

There's no room on mah field for non-coms!
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #78 on: January 25, 2011, 06:27:14 pm »
When the healer completes reading the Healing Poem, all wounds and any items held by the wounded fighter are healed or repaired (i.e. armor, bow, shield, etc.).

but ya know, he's right... does it raise the dead?

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #79 on: January 25, 2011, 06:37:52 pm »
Nope. No resurrections. That's the job of Valhalla or the res point. They get jealous, y'know.
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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #80 on: January 25, 2011, 06:40:35 pm »
if anything came of this thread it's to add "Healing does not resurrect the dead" I feel like that should be in there?


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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #81 on: January 25, 2011, 06:52:54 pm »
I thought everyone knew that healing only works if someone's mostly dead. If they're all dead, there's only one thing you can do.
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Milo Baines

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #82 on: January 25, 2011, 06:54:13 pm »
Does it matter?

Also, if someone wanted to come on my field and be a healer i would be ok with it as long as they could fight as well as heal.

There's no room on mah field for non-coms!

i think it does matter. raising the dead unbalances the game and would be something i wouldn't let just everyone do for every scenario...but healing a wounded fighter...that's just good clean fun
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"Just glue some gears on it and call it Steampunk."

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Hiram the Incredible

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #83 on: January 25, 2011, 06:54:31 pm »
LOOSE CHANGE!

Seiichirô

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #84 on: January 25, 2011, 06:55:12 pm »
Go through their pockets for loose change?
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-Akiyama Seiichirô Mitsusada

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Hiram the Incredible

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #85 on: January 25, 2011, 06:55:36 pm »
"Healing does not resurrect the dead"

this shall be further known as the Miracle Max Addendum.

Swordbrother Haldor

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #86 on: January 25, 2011, 09:01:00 pm »
I agree with this proposal Aiden.

I don't see the point in them still being in the rules. I never really liked them being there in the first place, as it seemed that such a thing would be better served as a scenario specific action.
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Hiram the Incredible

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2011, 09:15:53 pm »
cursed thread is cursed

Judge Dredd

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2011, 10:08:01 pm »
Now I got my Aratari panties in a wad. Lets get rid of the healing rules! Anyone who doesn't like it... Thank the steampunk guy.
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Squire Lizard

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2011, 10:27:24 pm »
/facepalm

and another wonderful thread brought to you by the Omniscient Dagorhir Web Boards
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Heralds aren't there to interpret the rules, they're there to enforce them.
Gu kibum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha-gum-ishi ashi gurum.  "No life in coldness, in darkness. Here in void, only death."

Judge Dredd

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #90 on: January 25, 2011, 10:30:54 pm »
/facepalm

and another wonderful thread brought to you by the Omniscient Dagorhir Web Boards
Muahahahaahhahahahahaahhaa
Please tell me you didn't buy that last post
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Ilsa Starling

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #91 on: January 26, 2011, 12:49:45 am »
healing is like arching.....it is always allowed until someone says its not allowed....no need to fight.....

Word to this. I like the idea of healing being allowed unless it's specifically disallowed.

I use healing. I enjoy it. But I know that were I running an event, I know that I'd very easily forget to announce when healing's specifically allowed, simply because one has a lot to think about when running a battle, and healing isn't really on my radar. The people who do think about healing would lose out on a cool, useful part of the game.

Syr Olaf

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #92 on: January 26, 2011, 08:40:45 am »
How about :

 6.10 - Healing is set fourth by the herald and the event coordinators based on the battles such as and not limited to healing poems, resurrection points, heralds and ect. All guide lines will be verbally given before every battle.

Here is compromise. Please note Healing poem still intact.

Also I just have to ask. If Healing poems was stricten from the rules would That stop any chapter currently using healing poems stop using them? 100% sure no one would. Is that going to stop A herald at Rag from making people from using healing poems in battles? NO!

My point here is that if we keep healing poem do we need to add resurection rules? If they are not in the rules heralds to use them are illegal in there acts? You say no! I say then we do not need the healing poem in there unless we are going add all other healing possibilities or we are only stiffling what the heralds can do and the moa gets to be 30 pages?  Consider my suggestion above.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 08:50:33 am by Syr Olaf »
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Asmundthr Syr Olaf the White
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Kurai, the Blade

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #93 on: January 26, 2011, 09:17:31 am »
The only problem with that is it only takes a couple seconds to say "When you die, go to that rez point" where as healing poems have a designated set of rules that would take longer to explain. And we all know the joke about Dagorhirrim and attention spans. It's not broken, don't try to fix it.
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Gainzdalf the Swole of the Swoloship
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Stay out of this Kurai, we like you for completely arbitrary reasons.

Syr Olaf

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #94 on: January 26, 2011, 12:22:46 pm »
The only problem with that is it only takes a couple seconds to say "When you die, go to that rez point" where as healing poems have a designated set of rules that would take longer to explain. And we all know the joke about Dagorhirrim and attention spans. It's not broken, don't try to fix it.

I am not sure of your post intention, but sounds like you made a good point towards getting rid of the healing poems.
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Asmundthr Syr Olaf the White
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stylgar

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #95 on: January 26, 2011, 12:32:45 pm »
I didn't read it that way. I saw "this rule shows no evidence of brokenness, and therefore needs no fixing."
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Hiram the Incredible

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #96 on: January 26, 2011, 12:49:52 pm »
I agree with the hippy.

Judge Dredd

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #97 on: January 26, 2011, 12:57:23 pm »
The hippy makes a good point.
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Alric

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #98 on: January 26, 2011, 01:10:09 pm »
That's how I read it as well. Your compromise, Olaf, makes it much harder to have healing; it's only accepted widely now because it's in the rules. Make it a special case, and any time anyone tries to use it, it will be much harder to get everyone on the same page. I see healing being forgotten very quickly, with your idea.

In Aidan's first post, he gave a few reasons for getting rid of healing that I think we should discuss more specifically. He said it confuses people, is rarely used, and makes us look larpy.

To Aidan's first point, how many of you have encountered confusion around the healing rules? The times I've used it people have been surprised, but they understood what was happening. Have other people noticed confusion (I'm guessing there was in incident, Aidan, that prompted you to start this thread)?

Secondly, people's responses here have shown that healing is less scenario-specific and more frequently used than Aidan's post suggested, and many people have argued that infrequent use is not itself a good reason to cut healing from our rules, as the people that do use healing are enjoying this aspect of the game.

To the last point, I have played another larp with magic, and there is a wide gulf of difference between Dagorhir's healing poem and the kind of stuff you can do in that game (teleporting is so ridiculous!). Do people think that healing hurts Dagorhir's image by making us look like a tappy magic larp (especially when it's not used by the majority of our fighters)?

On the other hand, I can think of at least two disadvantages to removing healing.

First, it would impose the will of the majority on a minority that's having fun doing something in Dagorhir that isn't ruining anyone else's fun. This seems counter to the way we like to do things in Dagorhir - unless the minority's fun is messing up everyone else's gameplay, we should leave it be, and not try to flatten Dagorhir by removing something that so many (albeit a minority) enjoy.

Second, it would remove the one nod to fantasy that we have in our rules. Dagorhir is a fantasy game, and while we keep our focus mostly on fighting, it's good to have a small nod to magic (while avoiding the larpy trap of slinging fireballs at each other) to tie us to our roots. Tolkien's elves have magical healing abilities, CS Lewis has a magic cordial that can heal wounds, and healing is a central element of many of the other fantasy traditions that we draw on for our characterization and roleplay. It's even an element of real-world myths and legends. If we eliminate healing, we take a step closer to being a bunch of stick jocks or history snobs. If anything, I think we need *more* healing (which is why I, as a recovering history snob rediscovering the fantasy in Dagorhir, have been trying to use it more often).

As a final point, making the healing rules 'scenario specific' would, I think, effectively kill them. I've explained why I think this above; I doubt that many event coordinators care enough about healing to explain all the rules before every battle. Take it from the rules, and I think most people will forget about it. And the whole point of healing is that it can be used when the time is right, and while the healers with little white bandages that Athron introduced at Rag 23 were fun, that kind of single-scenario healing doesn't compare with the ability we have now for any fighter with a healing poem to set his weapons down and risk death to heal his comrade's wounds.

This all boils down to the question, why should we change the rules? We've gone along with healing for more than thirty years, and I don't think we should casually write it off as an irrelevance, if for no other reason than the upset comments in this thread. I think we need a good reason to remove them from the rules, and I'm not convinced that we have that.

TL;DR: I agree with Stylgar :P
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Jari Kafghan

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Re: RWC Rule Proposal
« Reply #99 on: January 26, 2011, 01:21:33 pm »
Well said Alric.

And, "recovering"?
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