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[Milo Baines]

on the one hand i completely understand the lawyery talk that gets thrown around and why the "MoA is just for Rag" as they say but on the other hand i completely disagree with the mentality...

regardless of my own personal views about it i'd like to get some feedback on this topic...

how do you feel about this concept? why?

[Ulrich]

As I have always understood it, the MoA was the rules.  Why have 2 separate sets of rules for Rag and the rest of the game anyways?  That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, Rag is just a large event of Dagorhir, not Dagorhir is practice for Rag, thus rules for one would be rules for the other.  I know the thread this is coming from and the javi rule was brought up, so why wouldn't you just go ahead and make something that will pass at rag as opposed to having two sets of gear, having your stuff fail, or having to rebuild?

[Seiichirô]

Aside from the Dagorhir Handbook, there are no other documents outlining how to play the game.  I consider the Manual of Arms to be the set of game rules for Dagorhir.

If there is an effort to separate core rules from scenario based rules and concepts, that's fine, but both should be published.

[Gronk]

I too am often frustrated by the argument that the MOA is "only for Rag". I feel that most new people will look to and find most readily the MoA as the rules they learn and begin with.

In short, the MOA, as posted on the Dagorhir National website, is the DEFACTO national ruleset of Dagorhir.

[Milo Baines]

here's another question...

what is the Dagorhir Battle Games Rule System if NOT the MoA?

[Outhro Youkker]

MoA is the rules for Ragnarok and national events that we all take for ourselves to practice at home with. House rules can be applied to help facilitate special/specific situations.
Over here:
- 9yr olds are the lowest age allowed to fight in practice. It gives more fighting bodies on the field.
- One accidental head shot is excusable. The one causing the head shot still counts themself as dead. After that, a random small punishment that increases in quantity every time they give a head shot.

Plus a practice can be best described as a Scenerio. The water rules are not written. Fighting in structures are not written. Hay Bails are these walls you can fire over but not fight over, or a cliff to a Ravine. We set up the new rules for a scenerio to make it fun and balanced. Same goes for the practice.

MoA is the structure we fight on.
Scenerio and Local Practices allow additional rules to the structured rules.

And you dont mess with the safety. Weapons checking is key. MinMaxing is allowed. Using non safe and illegal weapons are your own thing on your own field, and it is not related with anybody else.

[Hiram the Incredible]

the MOA is for Dagorhir as a whole, but when dagorhir first started there was only the Aratari as a "realm" (Aratari = Dagorhir) as dagorhir was only in the Metro/DC area, so it was MUCH easier to manage. Now there are many chapters all over the country and I believe to get insight from realms outside of the Aratari the MOA is changed and discussed at the National Event so that all the realms may have input. but dagorhir as it stands now as a whole is still controlled by members of the aratari... and the intellectual rights are owned by Greymael.

Realms individually may institute certain house rules, like narnia's metal joints (if i'm not mistaken), but as a general rule only the strict interpretation of the MOA is used at Rag (and for the most part as far as I can tell, only the Aratari follows the MOA to the letter). People get "lawyery" when the realm house rules start differing greatly from the MOA and try to change the ruleset to cater the indivdual realm. ALSO when people play different LARPs and try to make the games very similar to keep from having to make 2 different sets of gear. I'm pretty sure that may who do the griping on here about the rules don't solely play dagorhir (you know who you are).

so in summary:

Dagorhir Battle Games is controlled by the Board of Directors, which consists of Aratari for the most part.

Ragnarok is controlled by the national council. the RWC

the MOA is the standard guideline and ruleset for the entire game of dagorhir as a whole, with the option given to the individual realms for slight variations and house rules.

As a rule 0 when you come to the National Event, it (IMO) behooves you to adhere to the MOA. it's just good practice and prevent rules lawyering, but if your realm or you personally see a need (glaring need, not just to have your kit pass at Rag
) for a rule change, bring it up at RWC and if approved by all realms it usually comes into effect and is adopted into the MOA.

[Judge Dredd]

Rag is just a large event of Dagorhir, not Dagorhir is practice for Rag, thus rules for one would be rules for the other.  I know the thread this is coming from and the javi rule was brought up, so why wouldn't you just go ahead and make something that will pass at rag as opposed to having two sets of gear, having your stuff fail, or having to rebuild?

This is the disconnect. Your realm practices and other events ARE practice for Rag. Or at least that was how it was in the beginning and in Concept.  Your realm is well within their rights to alter the rules for Rag to fit the way you like to play the game on your home field and even at events run by your realm. But you do so at the risk of not playing by the same rules that are in place for Rag, and having your gear fail, should you attend Rag.

It is expected that Dag fighters will flock to Rag no matter what the hardships. Rag IS that fun and badass. The general consensus among the major players, and attendees of Rag is, they do not want to do anything that might dissuade people from attending this event. This includes e-voting.

The rules for Rag are simply that, Rules for Rag. The people in attendance at Rag don't want people who are not there to assert their views on how to play Dag at an event that they will not attend. Conversely, the attendees at Rag have no desire to force you to play by their rules on your home field. If a Rag rule is not how you want it, bring it up with your realm, vote on it and change it for your realm. Just realize that if you attend Rag, you will have to comply with the Rag rules.

Do you see the 2 way street here? Rag isn't telling non attendees how to fight, and non attendees are not telling attendees how to fight. It's actually working.

I will agree that the wording (sorry, we aint friggen lawyers) in the handbook, chapter contracts, MOA, ect does not line up with this perfectly, but this is how it is written by us hippies. Now it all you lawyer types want to fix the wording, DO IT and we will vote on it.

[Janwin]

Rag is just a large event of Dagorhir, not Dagorhir is practice for Rag, thus rules for one would be rules for the other.  I know the thread this is coming from and the javi rule was brought up, so why wouldn't you just go ahead and make something that will pass at rag as opposed to having two sets of gear, having your stuff fail, or having to rebuild?

This is the disconnect. Your realm practices and other events ARE practice for Rag. Or at least that was how it was in the beginning and in Concept.  Your realm is well within their rights to alter the rules for Rag to fit the way you like to play the game on your home field and even at events run by your realm. But you do so at the risk of not playing by the same rules that are in place for Rag, and having your gear fail, should you attend Rag.

It is expected that Dag fighters will flock to Rag no matter what the hardships. Rag IS that fun and badass. The general consensus among the major players, and attendees of Rag is, they do not want to do anything that might dissuade people from attending this event. This includes e-voting.

The rules for Rag are simply that, Rules for Rag. The people in attendance at Rag don't want people who are not there to assert their views on how to play Dag at an event that they will not attend. Conversely, the attendees at Rag have no desire to force you to play by their rules on your home field. If a Rag rule is not how you want it, bring it up with your realm, vote on it and change it for your realm. Just realize that if you attend Rag, you will have to comply with the Rag rules.

Do you see the 2 way street here? Rag isn't telling non attendees how to fight, and non attendees are not telling attendees how to fight. It's actually working.

I will agree that the wording (sorry, we aint friggen lawyers) in the handbook, chapter contracts, MOA, ect does not line up with this perfectly, but this is how it is written by us hippies. Now it all you lawyer types want to fix the wording, DO IT and we will vote on it.

Yet another succinct and well-explained post by Blackhawk.  How has the world not ended yet?

[Milo Baines]

here's another question...

what is the Dagorhir Battle Games Rule System if NOT the MoA?

blackhawk, as a VP of DBGA, Inc., what is the Dagorhir Battle Games Rule System mentioned in the contract? and why does it say we need to follow it if we really don't? we're not just talking about unclear wording, it flat out states that "we will follow the Dagorhir Battle Games Rule System...

4. Follow the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, without deletion or alteration, for all events. Chapters may add rules in addition to those in the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, as long as they do not decrease the safety of the fighting or over-rule the basic tenets of the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System.

also, you say "if you don't like the way it's worded then change it and we'll vote." vote where? at rag...wouldn't that mean that Rag does decided what every other chapter does...

[Janwin]

Actually, Milo, my guess would be -that- vote would be done by DBGA, Inc.

The RWC has absolutely no authority over the actual contract system between their realms and DGBA, Inc.

I expect that the "Dagorhir Gaming Rules System" blurb is either a reference to an old system from days of old (ie: before I got involved in Dagorhir), or was just the 'best' way they could think of to say 'Dagorhir is a game, and these are the rules we use for our biggest, baddest event ever! Use them as your basis'.

Winterfell allows metal knees and elbows.
Winterfell allows children as young as 14 to play.
Garb isn't mandatory at practice (even though the rules state it is).

See?  Oh my god, we're breaking the contract since it says we can only add rules to the system, not remove them (ie: remove garb for practice).  Don't revoke our contract, plz!

Funny thing about legalese as far as Dag is concerned.  "Meh".  Most of us aren't lawyers.  Most people don't care.  Most just come out and have fun with the game, in which case the legalese doesn't matter in the least.

[Seiichirô]

The contract with the phrase "Dagorhir Gaming Rules System" was in place around 2001 (2002?) when issues of copyright came up.  The same time the "Manual of Arms" was published.  Prior to that, there was a sort of MoA prototype (can't remember the name) that was being drafted and the "Dagorhir Handbook" and no chapter contract.

[Malice The almost Banned]

Milo, the Chapter contracts and DBGA INC. Bylaws were drafted long before any of the current members of the BOD had our seats (yes this includes BH, i know hes old but he had nothing to do with them i swear).  yes their are some mis wordings, and yes they could all be cleaned up, but its not as easy as it sounds, We cant change the word "this" to "that" without a written proposal, we dont vote on proposals the day they are made so that's atleast a month till the next meeting.... it goes on and on , about what has to be done to change things like that, Do I like it? No but thats how it is untill its changed and the way it is currently makes it hard to change

[Judge Dredd]

here's another question...

what is the Dagorhir Battle Games Rule System if NOT the MoA?

blackhawk, as a VP of DBGA, Inc., what is the Dagorhir Battle Games Rule System mentioned in the contract? and why does it say we need to follow it if we really don't? we're not just talking about unclear wording, it flat out states that "we will follow the Dagorhir Battle Games Rule System...

4. Follow the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, without deletion or alteration, for all events. Chapters may add rules in addition to those in the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, as long as they do not decrease the safety of the fighting or over-rule the basic tenets of the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System.

also, you say "if you don't like the way it's worded then change it and we'll vote." vote where? at rag...wouldn't that mean that Rag does decided what every other chapter does...

Short answer---- Hippies!!
Long answer- Fix it and e-mail it to me, cause I just don't give a damn, it's working. But I will be happy to propose it, if you do a good enough job.

[Alric]

What realm doesn't follow the MoA? And if they didn't follow it, would any of us recognize them as playing Dagorhir?

The fact that chapters are allowed to add to the Rag rules, and that most chapters have one or two house rules, does not change the fact that we all play by the same ruleset, and that that ruleset is agreed on at Ragnarok.

Until a chapter rejects the MoA and claims that they can be playing Dagorhir without following the rules that Dagorhir publishes on its website, this question is moot.

[Lady Krystal]

What realm doesn't follow the MoA? And if they didn't follow it, would any of us recognize them as playing Dagorhir?

The fact that chapters are allowed to add to the Rag rules, and that most chapters have one or two house rules, does not change the fact that we all play by the same ruleset, and that that ruleset is agreed on at Ragnarok.

Until a chapter rejects the MoA and claims that they can be playing Dagorhir without following the rules that Dagorhir publishes on its website, this question is moot.

So too then I would assume you'd agree with Milo on his original stance that the MoA is not simply "for Rag only" - but for all of Dagorhir to abide by, right?

For myself, I agree that the MoA is the 'standard' ruleset for Dagorhir, which can be amended as needed by the individual realm. I understand that the "house rules" obviously wouldn't apply at Ragnarok, unless they were specifically outlined in advance as part of a scenario... but I also believe that to have people's questions/concerns/interests in the rules be written off as "Well the rules only govern Rag, so do whatever the hell you wanna do in your home realm" has a potential to damage the cohesion of the ruleset that we have in place.

I mean, in theory... I could decide in my imaginary realm that I want to do away with dimension requirements on weapons, provided they pass a hit test. According to the rules, I'm well within my right to do so. If I'm a loner realm in the middle of nowhere, and a few folks drop in.. spread out and take what they've done in my realm with them (ala the expansion from simply Aratari to the whole of Dagorhir)  then we have yet another group doing it... and potentially another, and so on.

It's not illegal, but at what cutoff point do we say "That's not Dagorhir" anymore? By the logic some people are putting out there about the rules only governing Ragnarok.. I could run my Dagorhir realm with the amendments to encompass the Dagorhir and it's "legal" to do so... but of course, highly frowned upon.

[Judge Dredd]

Krysal
Isn't that what we are all saying?

[Hiram the Incredible]

you can follow the MOA to the letter or play your own house rules in your realm, but when Rag is defined by the MOA and is followed. In the realms you are given the MOA as a guidline but not forced to strictly adhere to it for fun's sake. yes

[stylgar]

The contract with the phrase "Dagorhir Gaming Rules System" was in place around 2001 (2002?) when issues of copyright came up.  The same time the "Manual of Arms" was published.  Prior to that, there was a sort of MoA prototype (can't remember the name) that was being drafted and the "Dagorhir Handbook" and no chapter contract.

Actually, the DBGA had Chapter Agreements in place back in 95. Dagmar and I had to sign one. But it was simpler by a bit.
The prototype national MoA went by the name Tournament Rules.
This was to distinguish event rules from local ones, as the game had a stronger sense of autonomy, and it was a way of saying "we all play a little different, THIS set of rules we agree to follow when we host interrealm events."
This way, regardless of local/house rules, if you went to a big event, we all hung by them.

[Lady Krystal]

Krysal
Isn't that what we are all saying?

Yes and no. In this thread, sure we're all in agreement that the MoA constitutes all of Dag, not just Ragnarok.

What I'm asking, is that where does the cut-off point lie? If I can change anything in the MoA that I want (provided I'm not putting anyone's safety at risk), is there a distinction between what is or isn't a 'Dagorhir' group at that point? Are you a Dagorhir group if you only follow the MoA as it's written? Or are you still Dagorhir regardless of what rules you do or don't play by, so long as you have a Chapter agreement?

By the reasoning that we can change anything in the MoA we want, I could theoretically combine the "big three" games into one, and be everything at once.. the A & B & D... but I don't think people would appreciate that kind of a group being represented as a "Dagorhir" group.

[Hiram the Incredible]

the only example I can give is back when I was a gestiguiste we played D@rkon and Dagorhir. Well, we were a dag unit who also play D@rkon sometimes. It wasn't realm wide but a unit thing. we had weapons that were essentially the same we just adapted to the different game play.

Playing all three would be a unit or personal decision, unless your realm would have a problem with it (I can't see why, just playing the devils advocate)

Each system doesn't have to cater to each other, and i think thats where B players and D players sometimes get confused about. I don't expect the SCA to cater to Dag, Why should ppl in the B game expect Dag to cater t othem and Vice Versa? They shouldn't. Flat out.

[Milo Baines]

this thread is not about what we can and can't do on our fields or what we can and can't advertise ourselves as...

this thread is about dag and our rulebook and where it is applicable...

[Hiram the Incredible]

but they are connected, if you are a chapter of dagorhir, you are expect to use the MOA as a base point for your realm.

[Milo Baines]

i know, that's why i started the thread...

and i was specifically referering to question about whether or not we could lump several games together and still call it dag...which we can't...

[Hiram the Incredible]

correct

a is a, b is b, and dag is dag.

it's really up to you/your unit/your realm whether or not you're going to play them all. but with that choice comes the responsibility of playing all three of them as they are, sometimes they merge by happenstance and it's convenient, sometimes they don't. the lawyering you see(not all the time, but some) is from people wanting the convenience of all three.. but I don't think that is gonna happen.

[Judge Dredd]

I would venture to say the wording is inherently muddy, and that just might be on purpose. If everything were to be written down as far as how far you can stray from the rules, we might have realms doing what the fighters do.... min max. This way, if a realm goes too far (and by too far, I mean some analogous benchmark that should not be listed), we, the DGBA, can intercede. And typically, we don't do that unless our copyright is being infringed upon. It seems the second things get written down people immediately go straight to the bottom of the list and play there. Which is where we get this constant mantra, "so and so is unrealistic, why not just...." It happens all the time.

This way, if some realm goes way off course we can say, "Yo dude, too much". That is our way. No one here wants to play evil overloard or be da man or be da power, we are hippies and miscreants, we fight the power, and we stick out out middle finger at da man.

[Milo Baines]

This way, if some realm goes way off course we can say, "Yo dude, too much". That is our way. No one here wants to play evil overloard or be da man or be da power, we are hippies and miscreants, we fight the power, and we stick out out middle finger at da man.

as it should be, but i feel that perpetuating this distinction between rag and dag and where the MoA is applied only hurts our game...or rather it adversly affects our ability to work towards a common goal as a group...

i fear i'm not expressing myself clearly enough and that's leading to further dispute...

[Squire Lizard]

What realm doesn't follow the MoA? And if they didn't follow it, would any of us recognize them as playing Dagorhir?

The fact that chapters are allowed to add to the Rag rules, and that most chapters have one or two house rules, does not change the fact that we all play by the same ruleset, and that that ruleset is agreed on at Ragnarok.

Until a chapter rejects the MoA and claims that they can be playing Dagorhir without following the rules that Dagorhir publishes on its website, this question is moot.

I feel that this statement pretty much sums it all up, yet gets glossed over by other statements. Since MOST chapters follow the MoA pretty damn close it is safe to say that most realms follow the Ragnarok rules. They see the Rag rules as the rules for Dagorhir. Since no one has decided to venture too far from the original rules this IS a moot point. I do agree with Milo though in that it makes my head feel funny when people are so adamant about "The MoA is the rules for Rag only"...
And NO, the people trying to change rules or anything like that are NOT all Xgamers. I play Dag, Dag is my life, any other games are just extra. So just because I either don't like something about the rules or want to change them (have had hands in a few rules changes since '04) that makes me a bad guy? huh

[Hiram the Incredible]

So just because I either don't like something about the rules or want to change them (have had hands in a few rules changes since '04) that makes me a bad guy? huh

no way! not at all if something rubs you the wrong way and you see a glaring need to see it fixed, it's not only your right but i believe it should be a duty to make it the best possible. 5min ago:

http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=20981.msg440261#msg440261

healing doesn't specify whether or not you can resurrect with a healing poem. It doesn't say you can, but it doesn't say you can't either.. that is very important and needs clarity, otherwise... you can be a walking res. point. aaand I don't think that was the intent to give a healer that much control. on the other hand that may be a boon to offset having to sit still for 180 syllables.. who knows?

[Squire Ducky McFeelgood]

So its seems to me that we need to change the concept from that the rules are for Rag, and that they are the rules. Period.

Then again, i see us needing to evolve out of War Council for all rules change, and instead have a internet based thing where a hard list of chapter heads/vets/approved heralds? would all vote.

But that would involve us actually organizing up and doing things. Beh....

[stylgar]

This way, if some realm goes way off course we can say, "Yo dude, too much". That is our way. No one here wants to play evil overloard or be da man or be da power, we are hippies and miscreants, we fight the power, and we stick out out middle finger at da man.

as it should be, but i feel that perpetuating this distinction between rag and dag and where the MoA is applied only hurts our game...or rather it adversly affects our ability to work towards a common goal as a group...

i fear i'm not expressing myself clearly enough and that's leading to further dispute...

My disagreement here stems from my fondness for the deep tradition of broad autonomy. It sounds ham-handed and authoritarian. Or an attempt to stifle said autonomy. Grrrr.
Which is why I, for one, LIKE the dichotomous position of reminding folks that the MoA, as the heir to Tournament Rules, only officially hold sway at interrealm events while also reminding folks that they also serve as the game-wide blueprint.
I fully recognize the dichotomy. And I call it paradox, not oxymoron.

[Milo Baines]

i've come to the realization that this whole topic is a non-issue and the dispute stems from perspective and missunderstanding...i apologize for my part in it...

alric said it best...

What realm doesn't follow the MoA? And if they didn't follow it, would any of us recognize them as playing Dagorhir?

The fact that chapters are allowed to add to the Rag rules, and that most chapters have one or two house rules, does not change the fact that we all play by the same ruleset, and that that ruleset is agreed on at Ragnarok.

Until a chapter rejects the MoA and claims that they can be playing Dagorhir without following the rules that Dagorhir publishes on its website, this question is moot.

[Syr Olaf]

Here is what it says on the Aratari website on the rules page

The top paragraph says:

'"The Dagorhir Manual of Arms will be the primary source of rules for Dagorhir Aratari, with the exception of differences contained in this Prelude, which always take precedence over Ragnarok rules."

Here is the linkhttp://www.dagorhir.org/rules/manual.htm.

[Milo Baines]

Here is what it says on the Aratari website on the rules page

i think you missed that part, that's for Aratari...ya know, the chapter...

edited to add: unless you are commenting on how it says "ragnarok rules"...in which case i'll say that's exactly the sort of distinction i'm rallying against...

[Gronk]

Agreed, Milo; most people on this board are familiar enough to agree with this statement:

What realm doesn't follow the MoA? And if they didn't follow it, would any of us recognize them as playing Dagorhir?

The fact that chapters are allowed to add to the Rag rules, and that most chapters have one or two house rules, does not change the fact that we all play by the same ruleset, and that that ruleset is agreed on at Ragnarok.

Until a chapter rejects the MoA and claims that they can be playing Dagorhir without following the rules that Dagorhir publishes on its website, this question is moot.

But what we seem to keep ignoring is the new person coming into the game looking to THIS website for the rules, and if we can just simply say

"The Manual of Arms is the fighting rules for dagorhir, vratified at ragnarok, and are subject to modifciation as seen fit by the chapter"

then we're clear and less confusing to new folks.

[stylgar]

Here is what it says on the Aratari website on the rules page

i think you missed that part, that's for Aratari...ya know, the chapter...

edited to add: unless you are commenting on how it says "ragnarok rules"...in which case i'll say that's exactly the sort of distinction i'm rallying against...

But the phrase "Distinction Without a Difference" seems to apply here.
Seriously

[Hiram the Incredible]

yeah the aratari really is kinda one big grey area because while we have our own house rules as it were, aren't we still technically goverened by the BoD/AWC.. thing?