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[Arrakis]

Ok well they still traded them, along with everything else...

seriously?...this must be a trap, my logic and facts cant handle LARP BS of this magnitude...

Give up, man.  This forum is not lynching-the-idiots-friendly.

FB me and gripe there.

[Aric Coren Drasilvas the exile]

psh i'm dropping it.
cool armor Brogg

[Alric]

The Scandinavians definitely traded with Ireland, and there was lots of cross-cultural contact. Hanzo is giving you a hard time because there is no evidence that anyone in Scandinavia or Ireland ever used horned helmets during the 'Viking age.'

This thread is a lesson about how making strange, poorly researched claims about history will result in harsh derails. It's also a lesson to those of us who can't stand bad history that we need to learn to be more polite. Sorry, Brogg.

[Squire Lizard]

This thread is a lesson about how making strange, poorly researched claims about history will result in harsh derails. It's also a lesson to those of us who can't stand bad history that we need to learn to be more polite.

IN A NUTSHELL!!

This thread is still made of fail covered facepalm

[Solusar]

Vikings did not have horned helmets. In fact, they have holes in their helmets where their horns stuck through.

[Kurai]

Vikings did not have horned helmets. In fact, they have holes in their helmets where their horns stuck through.

You saw that on the Discovery Channel Viking-Demon Special as well, huh?
Vikings was a cool guy, ate dragons and didn't afraid of anything!

[Brogg LeathaFlesh]

I don't care if my armor is in fact "realistic", if you make dagorhir to real then all the escapists would quit. If it will help you all get your panties out of a bunch, my armor is a Celtic war-belt with whatever I want on it because I can. Fin.

[Hundrsut]

next time say that at the beginning

i like the belt think leather lace would look nicer but its by no means bad.....and i liked ur ork armor

[Stellaria]

Nobody else really cares if your armor is realistic, either, hon. It's only when you assert that it *is* that the **** starts to fly. Or that your history is sound when those that know better tell you otherwise. You should know this by now....you're on the boards often enough. You're not new to this.

[Brogg LeathaFlesh]

less talk, more love my armor! 

P.S. I changed the lacing to full red before I even posted these pics.

[belofalbion]

they have red leather lace you could use.

[Brogg LeathaFlesh]

they have red leather lace you could use.

But thats not shoelaces.   

[belofalbion]

thats the point it would look better without shoelaces.

[Brogg LeathaFlesh]

thats the point it would look better without shoelaces.

But it's still not shoelaces. 

[Atalan]

Why are shoelaces so important?

[Brogg LeathaFlesh]

Why are shoelaces so important?

Because they are shoelaces.

[Stellaria]

Shoelaces aren't Dark Age

[Alric]

Some medieval shoes had laces! And EVERY fantasy boot has way more laces than are practical.

Though to be fair, they're made out of leather cord .

[Stellaria]

Ok, I stand corrected. Synthetic or cotton shoelaces aren't Dark Age!

[Brogg LeathaFlesh]

I'm just playing around. I know shoelaces are not period, but I'm using them until I get a chance to go get more leather lacing.

[Solusar]

Did I ever get around to mentioning how rad the ork armor is?

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

I'm really glad I just saw this thread.  You know, in the spirit of being nice.

More later.

[Milo Baines]

whatever you call it, it's not diplomatic to point out you are being diplomatic...

just sayin'

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

Milo . . . I am so extraordinarily grateful to you for pointing out that diplomacy isn't my strong point.  I'd never have figured that out otherwise! 

If you prefer, I could still Ushhy-bomb this thread with a five page post pointing out everything that's wrong with everything that everyone has said here?  Although, considering the thread in question, five pages might not be enough. 

The short version is:

The druids are all dead and gone, and have been since the Iron Age.  Deal with it.  Anyone who claims to be following their religion is trying to revive a dead one with 99.9+% of the material and culture missing, and the little bit remaining filtered through centuries of having been transcribed by religious men of a different religion.  There is no living tradition and absolutely no possible way that you can authentically practice their religion . . . even assuming, that is, that it's a single coherent religion and not a series of loosely related ones which is more likely anyway.

Oh, and ogham was invented by an educated Christian in the late Roman period and those runes on the belt are early medieval in origin and were the first known orthography used in association with several Germanic languages including Old Norse and Old English.  They really have nothing to do with anything "Celtic".

And, there's no such thing as a Viking horned helmet.  I thought that myth at least had been laid to rest even in the popular imagination.

There, Milo, happy?  That's called a tactical Ushhy-bomb.  It's the small short version. 

Re: The armour in question in this thread:  Your leatherworking technique is coming along nicely.  Try practicing refining some of your techniques, including edge finishing like was mentioned earlier.  Dying the edges to match is usually also a nice touch.  Did you do the tooling by hand?  Great job!  Not really Irish in any way, but it's really well done, and I like your artistic style.  Would you like some links to what actual Iron Age and Medieval Irish decorative styles looked like?  Some of them are really complicated and intricate, but I think if you did the ones in the OP by hand you should be able to make short work of it.

[Aiden]

Good post, Oisin. Informative, well-written, and chill.

[Ulfgard Ófriðr]

D'aww, Oisín, really? You really had to go there?

The short version is:

The druids are all dead and gone, and have been since the Iron Age.  Deal with it.  Anyone who claims to be following their religion is trying to revive a dead one with 99.9+% of the material and culture missing, and the little bit remaining filtered through centuries of having been transcribed by religious men of a different religion.  There is no living tradition and absolutely no possible way that you can authentically practice their religion . . . even assuming, that is, that it's a single coherent religion and not a series of loosely related ones which is more likely anyway.

What gives you (or I or anyone else, for that matter) the right to criticize what someone else holds to be their faith? You may have a legitimate factual point, which is good if you're a person that deals only in facts and nothing else. Other than that, so what?

You see, Oisín, I'm really tired of pulling the mad-dog routine on people for seeming hostile and intolerant because it makes me look like more of a jerk than I already am. Just try to do me a favor, huh? Let's not take pot-shots at peoples' faith. I was sorta planning to dare you to try it on some of the Asatru folk on the board, but that would be even too childish for me; to be honest, I don't have the energy to be aggressive and hostile and confrontational and generally jerk-ish right now. I've seen you post some really brilliant stuff in the past, but this doesn't qualify. Just sayin'.

[Alric]

I think that it would be best if we ended this conversation here. I don't think that these boards would lend themselves to a very profitable discussion on this subject - if you want to keep talking about it, please take it off the boards.

Thanks guys.
/moderator

[Whisper Moonson]

Aww... But I had this nice, well-thought piece written up! Short version: I'm one of the guys Oisin allegedly insulted (out-of-practice CR druid type), and I don't feel insulted at all. He's right.

Anyway, yeah, it's supposed to be about armor, not history of Celtic religions. Let's get back to hitting each other.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

Ulfgard, I think you're being a little too touchy about it, but Alric's probably right.  People do tend to get touchy and this probably isn't the best place.  If you'd like to talk to me about it, find me on facebook.  Search bamudd.  Whisper, I see you're online now, I'll probably message you about it.

Oh, and Ulfgard . . . the ancient Norse religion didn't survive into the modern era unscathed, and Asatru must be considered a revival in my opinion, but it's very different in some key aspects.  Unlike the ancient Irish pagan religion, there was an apparently unbroken tradition of practice until at least the 18th century, probably through most of the 19th, and possibly actually into the early 20th century.  The oral traditions were not utterly eradicated by a foreign invader, and the earliest practitioners of the religious tradition that we might inclusively label Asatru (although that's not really a perfect name, but neither is Germanic Neopaganism) had access to at least a living oral tradition and most likely at least the living memory of living practitioners.  They were possibly able to actually receive some of the traditions intact.  I think that the modern practice of Asatru is in many ways very different from the ancient practice, but then again most religions have seen quite a bit of change in the past, say, three hundred years.

[Spiderling]

Don't mean to push the derailment further, but...

ogham was invented by an educated Christian in the late Roman period

...this has me curious.  Name to look up?

[Kensman Ilariia]

Sorry Alric, but have to put in a comment.   

You would be hard-pressed to find an Asatrur that didn't agree (perhaps grudgingly) that it's a reconstructed religion.  The shear amount of "denominations" and interpretations are hard to ignore.  That doesn't stop some folk from trying to study what information we have from lore (oral and written) and digs to attempt to construe what may have been practiced.

But then again, I wouldn't say the Church now is anything like the Church 500 hundred years ago, or even 50.  Times change, things evolve. 

[Ulfgard Ófriðr]

For the record, I hadn't intended to seem quite so hostile. As it turns out, I guess I didn't do such a good job in that regard. "People do tend to get touchy" is a point we can all agree on, I think.

Overall, I have 2 points in this post:
1. Hmm... Not as planned.
2. It's in no way meant to be a personal issue, just an issue with the tone that I inferred from your post.

*Further disclaimers:
If I was offensive to any of the other Asatru folk out there by dragging them into this, it was fully unintentional. Truth be told I'm trying to muddle my way through the process of "trying to study what information we have from lore (oral and written) and digs to attempt to construe what may have been practiced," myself. That said, I probably am due for a slap upside the back of the head with a hammer for my general ineptitude in this respect.

[Milo Baines]

Milo . . . I am so extraordinarily grateful to you for pointing out that diplomacy isn't my strong point.  I'd never have figured that out otherwise! 

if you need lessons  you can message me on facebook...

[Solusar]

And, there's no such thing as a Viking horned helmet.  I thought that myth at least had been laid to rest even in the popular imagination.

See, direct evidence to prove my theory. Not horned helmet. Horned vikings.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

For the record, I hadn't intended to seem quite so hostile. As it turns out, I guess I didn't do such a good job in that regard. "People do tend to get touchy" is a point we can all agree on, I think.

Overall, I have 2 points in this post:
1. Hmm... Not as planned.
2. It's in no way meant to be a personal issue, just an issue with the tone that I inferred from your post.

*Further disclaimers:
If I was offensive to any of the other Asatru folk out there by dragging them into this, it was fully unintentional. Truth be told I'm trying to muddle my way through the process of "trying to study what information we have from lore (oral and written) and digs to attempt to construe what may have been practiced," myself. That said, I probably am due for a slap upside the back of the head with a hammer for my general ineptitude in this respect.

You're the primary one being totally touchy.  Stop worrying about offending people.  A lot of people unfortunately do have a persecution complex and are willing to be easily offended about their religion, but that doesn't make it you who's being offensive.  Don't be so politically correct, people need to be able to talk about things like this more, for the whole worlds' sake.

Don't mean to push the derailment further, but...

ogham was invented by an educated Christian in the late Roman period

...this has me curious.  Name to look up?

I'll have to go find notes to get everything, but Damian McManus, currently Professor of Early Irish at Trinity College (remembering that in the Irish and British college systems the Professor is the chair of a department not just any tenured member thereof like in America), wrote one of the most widely accepted books about ogham.  Him and those of his school of thought argue that it was invented by early Christian communities in Ireland as a code for writing short messages that's more adapted to the Irish language than is the Latin alphabet.  And, if you've ever seen written Irish, you'll realize very quickly that the Latin alphabet really isn't very well suited for writing Irish, no more now than it was then.  That* is now the most widely accepted interpretation . . . other now defunct theories from the middle of the 20th century are that it was invented in pre-Roman Gaul originally as a sign language based on the Greek alphabet, or more widely that it was a form of secret Irish anti-Roman code--imo, this theory really had more to do with modern Irish nationalism in the 70's and 80's than with archaeological evidence.

*My biggest problem with McManus' theory as written is that it fails to explain the fact that most of the earliest ogham inscriptions are in southern Wales, many of them bilingual stones (ie, stones that contain both Irish and Latin inscriptions).  I happen to subscribe to a somewhat more recent theory which is that ogham was actually invented in an Irish community in Wales, probably a monastery, by someone who was a native speaker of Irish and educated in Latin, and possibly inspired by knowledge of Roman monumental inscriptions.  I don't have any published citations for that off the top of my head, although I know Conor Newman is working on something related currently.

[hivemind]

You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts.

In reference to?

[Ulfgard Ófriðr]

Alright. I yield.

Number of times owned in this thread: 2
Total number of times owned on the boards: 3


^I'm gonna see if I can't get a friend to come up with a neat little embeddable image attached to a clicker so I can keep track. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In other news, now that I'm done offtopic: I like your leatherwork, Brogg. Nicely done. I'd totally wear it if I had one.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

Have some confidence, dude!  It's good that you're willing to admit in good form when you're wrong, that's a rare skill, but it seems like you're going there too early and yielding too much.  It's not a contest, and I am in no way shape or form trying to pwn you.

You don't have to keep your PC knob turned up quite that high, ya know. 

[Ulfgard Ófriðr]

No worries, it's all in good fun. And I even managed to pick up some facts along the way!

[Tormir]

I like the armor. The people who are douchebags are just gonna be douchebags. The helm looks nice and the ork armor? Sweet. The belt? Yeah, they're Futhark. But you did them well(even if the "chain" or "sequence" is all wrong and gives me chills. I don't know it's proper name, I'm self taught in my runic workings)

As to all of the debates... the man is showing off his handiwork, not claiming to be a gorram historian. Show some respect....

And the argument about faiths? Seriously? That's low even for you Oisin. I'm a self taught practicing druid. I follow what feels right and it hasn't lead me to harm yet. I pay homage to many of the old gods, some norse, some "celtic", some greek and some egyptian. I do rune work. Am I claiming to follow the old ways? In naming druids, yes. In practice, absolutely not. Get the facts before you hate next time. 'sides... he said they came from a book on Neopaganism/Neodruidism.... which does use the Futhark. And does it all wrong, but that's another topic, another qualm. For another time, another thread.

[Whisper Moonson]

Just when things calmed down in here...

The OP made an erroneous historical claim and kept arguing it when his error was pointed out. That's bound to get some shouting going on.

I'm another druid type (Celtic Reconstructionist), and I took no insult whatsoever from Oisin's post. I agree with most everything he said. It's a field where little is known about the culture, and even less about the religion. All we can do is piece together what we can, make up the rest based on somewhat educated conjecture, and be brutally honest that we're making up 99.9% of it. The problems come when that honesty is left out. It's one thing to make stuff up and know that you're doing so. It's quite another to go around asserting that the made up stuff is fact. I suspect that's one of the methods they used to use for bringing on the ferg. 

But, yes, this is supposed to be about the armor. I'd like to see more. The basic construction looks like it could use improvement, but the tooling, as I've said before, is wonderful. Very nicely done.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

And the argument about faiths? Seriously? That's low even for you Oisin. I'm a self taught practicing druid. I follow what feels right and it hasn't lead me to harm yet. I pay homage to many of the old gods, some norse, some "celtic", some greek and some egyptian. I do rune work. Am I claiming to follow the old ways? In naming druids, yes. In practice, absolutely not. Get the facts before you hate next time. 'sides... he said they came from a book on Neopaganism/Neodruidism.... which does use the Futhark. And does it all wrong, but that's another topic, another qualm. For another time, another thread.

You're a practicing druid?  Read my signature line.  The bit about truth against the world.  If you don't know what it means or where it comes from, find it and read about it.

Here's a start:

Three ruins of a tribe: a lying chief, a false judge, an offending religious official.

Three ranks that ruin tribes in their falsehood: the falsehood of a king, an historian, a judge.

Three doors of falsehood: an angry pleading, a shifting foundation of knowledge, giving information without memory.

And another writing that's of particular closeness to my own heart:

"What was it that maintained you so in your life?" Patrick enquired; and Caeilte answered: "truth that was in our hearts, and strength in our arms, and fulfillment in our tongues."

Otherwise, what Whisper said.