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Author Topic: An Appeal for Civility.  (Read 12560 times)

Offline Frothgar

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An Appeal for Civility.
« on: February 05, 2011, 06:49:47 pm »
I wrote this a few weeks ago when all I could find were angry insulting posts. Things have calmed down a touch since. Still feel my little diatribe is relevant, so enjoy.

An appeal for civility.


I will preface this by saying that Dagorhir probably saved my life. I was a loser and a geek in high school, picked on and bullied a lot. Found Dagorhir late my junior year and life in general took a big upturn. Here I had found people who not only shared some general interests, but who didn’t judge. Dagorhir built me up as an individual; I became more confident, more skilled and much more socially adept.

 This whole post is uncharacteristic for me, as I don’t like telling people what to do. I believe we all make and should be responsible for our own choices, and who am I to judge or question someone else’s choices or motivations. But the **** that goes on in these boards is getting ridiculous.

That said if I was in the same position now as I was then, and came across the Dagorhir boards I would write it off as just another bunch of exclusionary pricks who are high on their own egos. It’s rare now that I see a thread with someone asking a question that doesn’t devolve into a few people calling each other autistic retards. One of my first questions on this board was whether or not I could use a Frisbee as a core for a shield. The general response was along the lines of “you can try but be careful, it might break, try using wood instead.” The tone was civil, the information helpful, relevant rules were posted, and not once was I called a retard or mocked for making a newb question.

   For many people the Dagorhir boards are the first exposure to the game that they have. And if at first they come in and ask questions any new person would have they are greeted with childish, ugly, and outright hateful derision I would be damn surprised to see if they stick around to learn the good parts of the game.

I do not accept the “its winter so this is what we do” or “it’s the internet” argument. Screw that, just because there is snow on the ground or you are behind a computer screen doesn’t make you any less in control of your words, actions, and self. Don’t blame being an ass on the weather. Take some responsibility.

   Realize that people are coming in sometimes with nothing but an interest in swords and a degree in Braveheart history. I was that way, look at some early pictures of me, I was a Mel Gibson pastiche. I took what I saw on screen and the internet as more or less true. I know better know, I know now to recognize broad generalities and coffee table history when I see it, I can research and find sources. If I know something I say it, but if im not sure or can’t find the source I make that uncertainty known.

 By being an ass to new people, who may very well be misinformed, you’re throwing water on the ember of interest that could have grown to a flame of knowledge.  If you feel you have an obligation to correct the record telling someone to not post about things they don’t know about, isn’t going to help them or the discussing. Pointing out the facts in a clear non condescending way will.

This is the game’s bulletin board, not a private angry dome. The boards are a valuable resource for new players and people learning new skills. They have as much a right to use these boards as you do.

I like this game, I like its people, its atmosphere, the escape. I would like for more and more people to get to experience the game and reap the benefits.

So chill out and don't be a douchebag.

Frothgar
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Offline Whisper Moonson

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2011, 07:52:39 pm »
Frothgar is wise.
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Offline Fiyera

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2011, 08:15:51 pm »
Great post, and I can definitely relate. I have some friends that have recently joined the game, and I told them specifically not to join the boards, for the reasons you listed above.

Offline Øsric

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2011, 08:43:34 pm »
Amen brother!
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Offline Goats Kordatar

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2011, 10:10:05 pm »
Yay! I don't have to post it myself.

I am highly inclined to agree with you. I'm pretty stubborn, so I was able to take it, but I definitely think this board is unfriendly to the new person.
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Offline Aiden

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2011, 02:06:23 am »
Well stated. These boards aren't here to be an ego-stroke for vets. Or a place to express your teen, tween, and mid-life angst. These boards are most valuable as a service to new and burgeoning members, groups, events, ideas. Most vets who actually want to connect generally do it via phone, email, or facebook. Well stated, Frothgar, and I appreciate the personal anecdote at the beginning. Dagorhri certainly does provide a relative safe haven for many people seeking inclusion. Social stratification happens in every sub-society, but I know that we have a pretty decent chance at keeping things relatively in check while our numbers are still pretty small.
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Offline Leaf of Redwater

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2011, 09:02:41 am »
I 6th this. Three cheers for acting like an adult, even "in the winter" or "on the internet".

Offline Judge Dredd

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2011, 09:32:39 am »
Bah humbug, send me a noob so I can chase them off!




I kid

Offline Graymael

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2011, 11:52:30 am »
Bhawk, you're an artistic retread!
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Offline Nox

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2011, 02:44:02 pm »
Yay for Frothgar.  :)
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Offline wolfsbane

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2011, 03:39:19 pm »
can we chase scrooge off? or would the counter productive lol
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Offline Araduin of Rivervale

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2011, 06:27:34 pm »
I couldn't agree with you more, Frothgar.  Half the time, I'm apprehensive about posting anything on these boards, because there are people that just wait for a chance to pounce on you.  The few times I have recently, I learn my lesson, and stop posting for a while...
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Offline Stryfe

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2011, 08:34:18 pm »
tl;dr.

And also, no.  :P
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Offline Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2011, 09:41:57 pm »
When you think of posting angry just ask....what would Magnus's cat do....thats right sleepie poo.

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Offline Cassius

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2011, 11:28:51 pm »
Honestly, I don't see people getting more civil on the boards any time in the immediate future.  First of all, the boards have no place or reason when it comes to Dagorhir, and that doesn't exactly provide much incentive for someone not to act like a jackass on them.  It has been done since the dawn of the internet and will continue to be done until the end of the internet or until the Dagorhir boards start to mean something.  I can think of a couple of ways that the boards can be given purpose and provide a reason for people to remain civil on them, but unfortunately that doesn't change or solve anything as none of them would ever be put into motion.
Secondly, having not only vets, but also moderators breaking the forum rules and showing poor behavior is doing nothing but reinforcing all of this.  But yet again, none of this is going to be remedied any time in the immediate future.  Really, I just don't see this kind of behavior dissipating without some serious changes taking place first.

Offline Jari Kafghan

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2011, 11:45:24 pm »
Cas- this is one of those things that Frothy is trying to change from the ground up. Issuing edicts from on high only makes people madder, he is trying to civilly change the tone, and I am going to try. Though I have been working on that for months now, more encouragement is good.

Offline Disirregardlessly hivemind

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2011, 11:49:11 pm »
I will be more conscious of my "tone" when talking to newer players. Players who spout nonsense when they should know better, though...
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Offline Alric

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2011, 12:25:58 am »
I think the boards definitely serve a purpose. This is where we spread information about events, and where new fighters come to find groups and get advice. When spam and nasty banter gets in the way of helping new guys out, we're doing things wrong.

I recognize that I'm sometimes a part of the problem. And some of the moderators are carrying a warning level.

Offline Sir Magnus of Narnia

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2011, 12:36:50 am »
No one is perfect. Simple solution "Do more good than harm". Go back to look at your past ten or so posts and go "Am I doing anything useful, or am I just a troll that happens to be a real Dagorhir player".

If the answer is Troll, go chip in like a man/women and make something useful happen.

Simple as that.

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Offline Stellaria

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2011, 12:48:32 am »
Cas- this is one of those things that Frothy is trying to change from the ground up. Issuing edicts from on high only makes people madder, he is trying to civilly change the tone, and I am going to try. Though I have been working on that for months now, more encouragement is good.
I was gonna say.....I haven't seen any of the mods being uncivil to anyone that they didn't know for sure could take it in a very long time. Jari and BH especially have cleaned up considerably.

Also, out of fairness.....in general, most people start out pretty civil. It's when the new people start to get testy and demanding or insistent that the things being told them by seasoned players of the game are wrong, things can go downhill quick. Irritating people are just that, and it makes sense that people will snap at irritation.
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Dagorhir is too big for special snowflakes. A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. You aren't special. Follow the damn rules.

Offline Squire Lizard

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2011, 04:58:42 pm »
I will admit I DO fall into the snarky catagory at times.

Then again, there is a reason why I am the only one from my realm to be on the boards and we have 30+ members. EVERY person from my realm who has gotten on these boards with fresh faces and smiles get **** on and turned away REAL fast. They do not come back afterwards.
One of our fighters, a female, popped in just to say hi and posted a picture of herself. My girl is her best firned and talked her into posting "because there are soo many cool people on there!" Instead of people being cool they proceded to tear down her garb and equipment, calling her a newb, and just being douches. She posted 1 time I believe...

So yeah, this IS a good thing but like Cas I feel it will take a LOT on ALL OF OUR PARTS to remedy this situation.
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Offline Marcus steel

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2011, 11:22:52 pm »
I have to say that some of the replies on this board do tend to get a little rough, i stopped posting at one time due to some backlash over what i had thought was a valid observation. There have also been several times after reading a thread that i have wondered how any newbs are supposed feel welcome, not everyone is being a jerk tho and there are several instances where it really is just a joke.
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Offline Fiyera

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2011, 06:20:12 am »
i have wondered how any newbs are supposed feel welcome, not everyone is being a jerk tho and there are several instances where it really is just a joke.
You bring up a good point, Marcus. I guess that's where things get tricky because some people on here are such good friends with each other that they can make remarks that sound mean to the rest of us, but they know they're joking... It's impossible to understand tone online, so even responses that the average person gets can sound snarky... but then others come back and say oh they're just kidding. It just doesn't provide a very friendly environment for the average person to post openly. It's intimidating because some people post so frequently and are easily recognized and their conversations and discussions can give the appearance of a strong clique. I'm lucky to be able to say that most (if not all) of the threads I've started have always stayed fairly well on track. But when I create a thread I always re write it several times and make sure it's a clear post with an obvious question that I really couldn't figure out on my own. (side note: I don't like walking on eggshells, but I do it because the last thing I feel like dealing with is a heated discussion when all I want is a damn answer!)

I read more than I post, by far. I've seen instances of mods definitely straightening up their act, while mean comments (or comments that can be interpreted as mean) still show up. Obviously no one is above snapping or getting irritated, but I feel like those who have been made moderators should be a little more above it than the rest of us. I've been pleased to see a few starting to remain more impartial to "questionable" posts, and treating everyone more equally. Now just to get the majority of the posters to also "be good" so mods don't have to step in as much.

Offline Silk

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2011, 06:29:59 am »
I've got a lot to say on this, but I'll keep it short (for once). Thank you Frothgar, I'd have to agree with you. I had a completely different experience when I first joined the boards. I'd like to say that it was because I didn't act like a know it all and researched my questions before I asked them (which I mostly did), but the fact is that the atmosphere was much less hostile then. That's not to say that there wasn't a lot of debate, there was and sometimes people got out of control, but it wasn't the over all attitude.

What can we do? We can use the report button. If you see someone posting something jerky, click the report button. As far as I know it works even if the poster is a mod. This is how we can police each other.
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Offline Stellaria

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2011, 08:17:16 am »
It absolutely works on mods. Everyone can report an offensive post. And they do get reprimanded for it and get warnings just like anyone else would.
Stell
Dagorhir is too big for special snowflakes. A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. You aren't special. Follow the damn rules.

Offline Neriyan

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2011, 10:00:14 am »
By being an ass to new people, who may very well be misinformed, you’re throwing water on the ember of interest that could have grown to a flame of knowledge. 

^^^This for real. 

I can't cite any instances where I knew someone chased off the boards, but my policy is this - If I do not have something constructive to add to the discussion, I do not post. 

I stopped visiting these boards for several months recently, just to avoid the hate.  I don't expect us to all hold hands and skip off into the sunset, but we need to have respect for each other, and respect for the new recruits. 
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Offline Soo Ma Tai

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2011, 11:06:50 am »
Honestly, Dag has a very friendly board. Prolly one of the nicest toward people I have seen among foam fighting groups. I am not saying that's a reason to go and start being jerks or anything. Just that it really is, in general, a very friendly, welcoming place.
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Offline Fiyera

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2011, 11:18:15 am »
I'd hate to see what the other boards are like, then. I think it's important to not compare ourselves to how those on other boards handle themselves, but to focus on this board and making it as welcoming and informative as possible

Offline Sir Mirelle of Narnia

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2011, 11:19:27 am »
Honestly, Dag has a very friendly board. Prolly one of the nicest toward people I have seen among foam fighting groups. I am not saying that's a reason to go and start being jerks or anything. Just that it really is, in general, a very friendly, welcoming place.

^ This

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Offline Kyrax Niu-Taer

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2011, 12:26:20 pm »
I'd hate to see what the other boards are like, then. I think it's important to not compare ourselves to how those on other boards handle themselves, but to focus on this board and making it as welcoming and informative as possible

True - that is the point.  But to evaluate ourselves in a vacuum is silly.  This board is a haven of sweetness and light compared to many, many boards I visit. 

Sure we should be more patient with newbs and with self-important folks who clearly don't know what they're talking about or have no idea how Dagorhir works.  But sometimes we fail.  But other than terse "use Search" or shutting down idjits giving advice who shouldn't be, most of the snark and negative posts are between vets not from vets to new folks.
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Offline Disirregardlessly hivemind

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2011, 12:44:57 pm »
other than terse "use Search" or shutting down idjits giving advice who shouldn't be, most of the snark and negative posts are between vets not from vets to new folks.

This is how I've always seen it. I'm pretty helpful and friendly to newbs who don't come here thinking they already know everything, or refuse to listen. Once they open the retard valve, though, forget it.
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Offline Stellaria

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2011, 01:21:26 pm »
other than terse "use Search" or shutting down idjits giving advice who shouldn't be, most of the snark and negative posts are between vets not from vets to new folks.

This is how I've always seen it. I'm pretty helpful and friendly to newbs who don't come here thinking they already know everything, or refuse to listen. Once they open the retard valve, though, forget it.
That's about where I'm at.
Retard valve *giggle*
Stell
Dagorhir is too big for special snowflakes. A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. You aren't special. Follow the damn rules.

Offline Goats Kordatar

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2011, 02:41:42 pm »
I'd hate to see what the other boards are like, then. I think it's important to not compare ourselves to how those on other boards handle themselves, but to focus on this board and making it as welcoming and informative as possible

True - that is the point.  But to evaluate ourselves in a vacuum is silly.  This board is a haven of sweetness and light compared to many, many boards I visit. 

Sure we should be more patient with newbs and with self-important folks who clearly don't know what they're talking about or have no idea how Dagorhir works.  But sometimes we fail.  But other than terse "use Search" or shutting down idjits giving advice who shouldn't be, most of the snark and negative posts are between vets not from vets to new folks.

Go check out the Brikwars forums. There are literary NO rules whatsoever. NONE.

This in fact ideal by comparison.
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Offline Sir Rap, the Space Wizard Daddy

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2011, 03:44:08 pm »
I have never felt uncomfortable or intimidated in any Dag situation, real life or online.
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Offline Kyrax Niu-Taer

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2011, 05:05:55 pm »
other than terse "use Search" or shutting down idjits giving advice who shouldn't be, most of the snark and negative posts are between vets not from vets to new folks.

This is how I've always seen it. I'm pretty helpful and friendly to newbs who don't come here thinking they already know everything, or refuse to listen. Once they open the retard valve, though, forget it.
*opens valve* Boy JiveMind, I've been doing leather work for weeks now and you're doing it all wrong. *closes valve*
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Offline Disirregardlessly hivemind

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2011, 10:06:22 pm »
Actually, due to recent experiences on these boards, I don't bother commenting on people's leatherwork anymore. Notice, for example, my conspicuous lack of commenting in Brogg's thread with his new "celtic" armor.
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Offline Stellaria

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2011, 10:08:50 pm »
The historians and novice leatherworkers took care of it for you :)
Stell
Dagorhir is too big for special snowflakes. A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. You aren't special. Follow the damn rules.

Offline Rainen

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2011, 10:18:59 pm »
So I can't hug Mizz Stell because she's not a vet?
Please, don't call me "Doc".

Offline Stellaria

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2011, 11:29:46 pm »
You can hug me anytime you like, kiddo :) I may not be a vet, but I *am* a mom.
Stell
Dagorhir is too big for special snowflakes. A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. You aren't special. Follow the damn rules.

Offline Kensman Ilariia

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2011, 06:33:03 am »
Mom-card wins every time :D
-HRM Kensman Ilariia Bulochnika, called Brenna

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Offline Stellaria

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2011, 08:35:03 am »
Hivemind, that is not appropriate when addressing a young man Rainen's age. You just made it creepy, not fixed!
Stell
Dagorhir is too big for special snowflakes. A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. You aren't special. Follow the damn rules.

Offline Disirregardlessly hivemind

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2011, 08:36:18 am »
He's over 18 isn't he?
Primarch Ser Hivemind Saligia of The Cairnhold Legion, Winterfell: A drinking unit with a fighting problem.
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Offline Stellaria

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2011, 08:37:56 am »
Nope. 16, I think? 15? Around there.
Stell
Dagorhir is too big for special snowflakes. A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. You aren't special. Follow the damn rules.

Offline Disirregardlessly hivemind

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2011, 08:38:38 am »
Yeah, he should still be looking at the jailbait board over at Reddit then...
Primarch Ser Hivemind Saligia of The Cairnhold Legion, Winterfell: A drinking unit with a fighting problem.
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Offline Silk

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2011, 08:39:03 am »
15
~Dame Silk~
Beloved by GOD

Offline Squire Lizard

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2011, 06:23:45 pm »
Actually, due to recent experiences on these boards, I don't bother commenting on people's leatherwork anymore. Notice, for example, my conspicuous lack of commenting in Brogg's thread with his new "celtic" armor.

I was wondering why you, or Hanzo, or Usheen didn't comment.
Now I know...
and...

also, I better damn well hope if I put some leatherwork up you would comment on it... snob :P
Heralds aren't there to interpret the rules, they're there to enforce them.
Gu kibum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha-gum-ishi ashi gurum.  "No life in coldness, in darkness. Here in void, only death."

Offline Disirregardlessly hivemind

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2011, 06:41:49 pm »
If people ask for feedback, and not from me specifically, just general feedback, I will happily give it. If they don't ask, I don't offer anymore if I can help it.
Primarch Ser Hivemind Saligia of The Cairnhold Legion, Winterfell: A drinking unit with a fighting problem.
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Offline Oisín Leathshúileach

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2011, 06:47:03 pm »
I didn't even see that thread until you just now pointed it out.  In the spirit of trying to be nice . . . good god, I'm glad I didn't.  I don't think I'm entirely going to be able to contain myself.  I'll try to be nice?  ;)

Oh, and also, Lizard . . . there are people who put stuff up wanting to be told they did well.  Those people can be pandered to by the people who don't know better.  We all know by now that you're one of the people who puts stuff up because you want to be told how to do better . . . and while I might not have much to contribute towards that in terms of leather working, it's still a recognizable difference and an important one.
Oisín Leathshúileach ua Duibhne
Ard Laech
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An Fhírinne in aghaidh an tSaoil--Truth against the world.

It's pronounced uh-SHEEN, like "machine" without the m. Not oy-sin.

Offline Hanzo of Narnia

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2011, 08:14:50 pm »
YOU CANT STOP THE TRUTH BLACKHAWK!!!!!


I'm gonna look at this from the other side of the coin, and I know people will get butt hurt and rainbows will fade but I gotta say it.

This game has no natural predators, no hurdle to overcome, it requires a pulse to play and sometimes I doubt even that.

In the SCA for instance the mere fact you have to buy a helmet wipes out a huge swath of retards who dont have jobs, or cant be bothered to figure out how to make one. The fact that it hurts wipes out another huge swath of retards. It widdles down the "would be's" into the "will be's". and while it doesnt catch everyone it definitely gets a huge amount of the worthless people out. I cant recount the amount of times I have seen someone come up to me in pajama pants and a ripped up shirt and say "the SCA are meanies, thats why I dont play" and my thought to that is simply "well they aint missin out on much"

Dag has taken this stance of rainbow turds and and butterfly kisses, where anyone can join and do literally anything they want to. And in my opinion we suffer for it, we suffer for it every day as we just attract more retards cause hey we're the the lowest common denominator out there.

These boards show it every day, we all say "oh if I was new and saw these boards I would run away and cry in my pillow". Get your head out of your asses and see it this way. If a serious player came here, someone of total worth who really wanted to do this they would not be turned away by the *******s.

 case in point myself, I really wanted to do this and went about it the completely worng way at first. If I was showered with puppies and praise by the tard bag hug brigade I would still be in a ****ing ninja outfit. But no I got taunted, threatened and harrassed on these boards until I changed my god damn ways...and look at me now! I learned to make steel armour, Written multiple tutorials for this forum, have a period good looking kit complete with hand made tent, I have never gone to rag without working a troll shift or two, I have taught an armouring class every rag I have been to, and last year I ran a charity than raised over $600 for the Roswell cancer Institute, and with all that I get told I bring this game down cause I dont let the drooling knuckle draggers of dag get by just on the mere fact their heart is still beating.

Serious medievalists would be turned down by these boards for the mediocrity we let slip by! If I was looking for a place to play hockey and came across a forum where guys were being told "its ok man, you can pay with a fence post cause you dont wanna a stick...you dont need a jersey you can just wear a pajama shirt" I would leave and most hockey players worth a damn would never look back.

Dag is doing the same thing by being too nice to the retards I aint talking good hearted noobs, I dont think these boards are ever overly aggressive towards them.

Next time you see something on these boards think, "If was a serious LARPER, reenactor, etc. would I think any worse of this game if I saw X not being chastised?"


Well I'm done pooping on the parade train...
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 10:08:35 pm by Hanzo of Narnia »
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Offline Rainen

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Re: An Appeal for Civility.
« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2011, 08:17:05 pm »
Nope. 16, I think? 15? Around there.
Let's go with 'around there.'

And what did Hivemind post...?
Please, don't call me "Doc".