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[Oisín Leathshúileach]

Your taking it personal because this time its your toys.

Lil bit, yeah.  Bet you'd take it personal too, if it was you that'd had your hand snapped in half by a Dagorhir legal weapon.

I see a pretty clear rule about metal armor. Guants are metal armor. Metal armor cannot be made of AL. I'm not making it up. Score some titanium gaunts, problem solved.

Where does it say that the only armour you can wear is game-points legal armour?  Where does it say that safety equipment can't be built as armour?  And ffs, here's another brilliant point . . . I don't like your safe and effective $100 gauntlets, why don't you go buy the pair I DO like for $800?  Because that's about where titanium gauntlets start.

I'll use a better example. I want to wear a heavier guage metal helmet because I had a brain tumor caused by aliens and my doctor provided me a note. So am I allowed to wear a 12 guage full face helm on the field?

Still a strawman.  The rules argument against aluminum armour is playability, gaining unfair advantage . . . which is irrelevant since it doesn't grant any, and any advantage of deception is countered by inability to grapple etc, even leaving aside the fact that Al is the same weight as leather (for more, you know, real world protection to keep my anatomical erector set together).  The rules argument against a 12 gauge helmet is safety, that someone is going to smash their face open--now, admittedly, I don't buy it, but it is what it is.  You let Hanzo wear his 14 gauge helmet don't you?  You guys up there in NY wear steel knees and elbows, don't you?  This all seems somewhat hypocritical considering the source.

[Sir Magnus of Narnia]

Your not reading my posts. My debate does not hinge on what I would allow at my events. I has to do with this thread. I allow a lot of crap in a local level. I would probably allow your ganuts as well.

Most of Dagorhir's current armor rules are pretty much based on fear mongering, lack of education in armor, and personal agendas because people bought a new toy. Trust me I feel your pain.

The rest of your points I have already commented on more than once and don't feel the need to repeat it.

When I have had injuries in my hobby I have dealt with them and followed the rules. When I could not get past it I changed how I played. I don't ask for people to make exceptions. A lot of people don't know that my lungs are pretty badly fraked due to exposure to airborne toxins and dust a few years back. Breathing in cold air is pretty much like sucking fire at this point. I don't go to practice as much in the winter as a result. Some days even in good weather I get winded. I don't try to change the game, or how the chapter makes stuff happen. I just deal with it. Eh, that is probably a bad example, but you get what I mean.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

You've talked past "the rest of my points" but haven't actually said anything to address them directly.

The rules say that to count armour it has to be made in certain ways.  Barring safety requirements, which you have widely and erroneously conflated with playability requirements, there is no rule that subminimum armour cannot be worn in Dagorhir and not counted as extra protection.

You could make just as good an argument that plastic clamshells are armour and should be checked as such and banned if they don't pass . . . would you fail those at an event also?  The fact of the matter is that my gaunts are the safest and most effective way to protect my injury (and those of others in similar situations . . . I'm not the only one, just the loudest) while preserving playability and realism.  They've been tested as a safety hazard themselves by punching people (including myself, vets, and noobs) and the result is that it's no worse than getting punched with a bare hand, and likely better.  They present a minimal to zero playability problem, because they're always hand on weapon.  They are a much better realism solution than any modern safety device.

I fail to see a problem.

[Sir Magnus of Narnia]

You are correct. You fail to see the problem

I explained all of my points already I'm not going to repeat them (or this point of repeating them), because you don't agree. I guess you can just go back to calling me an idiot and we can let the public sort it out as needed.

....the safest and most effective way to protect your hand is not to fight.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

Because there's no problem to see.

There is no rule in the MoA to support your position.

[Sir Magnus of Narnia]

Because there's no problem to see.

There is no rule in the MoA to support your position.

Well, at least you managed to respond without calling me an idiot again

[Judge Dredd]

As much fun it is to listen to the two of you not listen to each other. Oisins clam-shells are not what this thread was about. But it does illuminate how many things get on our field that are far more offensive.

Reasonable intelligent people can meet at a battle and discuss Oisens clam-shells and come to an agreement as to him wearing them. But here on the internet. Although most of us can agree that Johny fake grieves shouldn't wear them, we end up in some sort of needle threading about a specific set of gear that teeters on both sides of the poorly written letter of our rules. 

A reasonable person tells Oisin to go ahead and wear them, yet hope that some dork rules lawyer does not point to Oisin and claim precedent while walking on the field wearing something idiotic.

Why do we think this might happen? Because we have whole units of people wearing matching sunglasses claiming they all have the same rare eye infirmity making them medically necessary.

I think we need to rely on rule 0 more often, we allow Oisin to wear his clams and tell the dork pointing to him claiming precedent, to take off their fake grieves and stop lawyering.   

[Sir Magnus of Narnia]

Look at you, all the voice of reason and stuff

[Judge Dredd]

Sorry, it just sounded like the two of you had both made good well thought out points supported by both the letter and the spirit of the rules as written in the MOA. All that was left was not to give ground on the others points (as is the way of things here on the interwebs) and call each other morons.

Now I look forward to a unit of fighters all wearing clamshells and sunglasses, with surprisingly similar x-rays of their hands. Followed closely by people dressed in funfoam armor. All at next years Father Christmas event.

Magnus, of course, will be in a corner, in a fetal position, sucking his thumb, and screaming "I knew it! I told him this would happen!". Consoling him, will be Oisin, who is wearing his brand new set of Titanium clams. Hanzo will be running around the parking lot breathing deeply in a misguided suicide attempt. Mirelle will be chasing me around carrying a pair of scissors trying to cut off my washer armor.

[Athron]

Why do we think this might happen? Because we have whole units of people wearing matching sunglasses claiming they all have the same rare eye infirmity making them medically necessary.

Oh, now you're going to tell me the criteria to build my own UNIT?!?!? You do know, good sir, that there is historical precedence for a military order being based on a debilitating condition.  Way to swing that admin. power around, jerk. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Lazarus



_{Noob notice: Sarcasm.}

[Judge Dredd]

And that folks, it the proper way to derail a winter thread!!

[Thorondor]

Wow BH...that was impressive

[Adrius]

[stylgar]

I think we need to rely on rule 0 more often, we allow Oisin to wear his clams and tell the dork pointing to him claiming precedent, to take off their fake grieves and stop lawyering.

This. If everyone would quit acting out of fear of the other guy turning cheesedick, I think everyone would have more fun.

And, thanks to some vaguely-worded rules, heralds have broad authority to handle cheesedickery.

[Hundrsut]

they have the authority . dosnt mean they have the attitude to enforce it

[stylgar]

In which case, refinement of the rules won't help.

[Syr Olaf]

In which case, refinement of the rules won't help.

If it is clearly not stated people will not enforce the common sense. So if we define the rule more then more heralds will enforce that rule.

[Jack Stewart III]

I almost fell off my chair!

[hivemind]

This was not meant to be a winter nonsense thread, and it certainly wasn't meant to be a two-page argument about Hoisin's freaking aluminum gauntlets, which have probably wasted more megabytes of database space than any other topic on these forums over the last couple years.

I still have an issue with people being allowed on the field in "armor" that's not being counted as armor. I think this will be something Winterfell proposes at RWC this year.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

Thanks Magnus, that was fun.  Love a good argument.  Dammit, Blackhawk, stop ruining our hissy fitting with reasonability. 

And seriously . . . find me a job that pays twice or even 1.5x what I make now, and I would SO throw down and buy those Ti gaunts.

Hive--Out of curiosity, how do you intend to define what's armour enough to have to be legal armour and what isn't?  Where's the line?  Are 8 oz leather gaiters subminimum armour that get failed as not-thick-enough greaves?  What about a 10 oz leather vest?  Those both seem like perfectly legitimate garb choices that could be confused with armour and might get caught in the middle of such a rule.  How about if I were wearing a full 14th century harness and put Azon mail chausses underneath to fill in the gaps entirely for looks?  What if I wore my SCA coat of plates over my mail?  It has plastic plates, but it's over legal armour, what then?  Do you pass it as garb, tell me to take it off, pass it as garb only as long as it's over top of passing armour?

Or on the safety gear front, a plastic coat of plates to protect someone's kidneys?  How about that exact same coat of plates to protect those kidneys with aluminum instead of plastic plates?  Is a lacrosse helmet legitimately non-armour safety gear (to, say, protect someone with a history of concussions who could suffer serious injuries from another head hit, or someone with a neck injury), and if so, why not an aluminum helmet?

Honestly, I really rather think that there are much bigger fish to fry.

[hivemind]

I'm not frying those fish.

This seems pretty simple to me. If it looks like armor, it must pass as armor, or it can't go on the field. What "looks like armor" is necessarily subjective, and there's no way to solve that. I'm never going to look at a leather vest and think it's armor; some people will. If the heralds think it will cause confusion at your field, then this gives them a tool to get that stuff off the field.

On the safety gear front, I do not agree with the dodge of calling something "safety equipment" to get it on the field when it looks like armor.

If it looks like armor, it must pass as armor, or it can't go on the field.

[Sir Magnus of Narnia]

You people are all insane.

[Judge Dredd]

I was thinking about making a logical well though out post that would shed some much needed light on this subject. But Athron called me a jerk so I am taking my ball and going home.

You are a bunch of bubble heads.

[Thorondor]

If it looks like armor, it must pass as armor, or it can't go on the field.

I'm going to ruin your medieval experience with my plastic safety equipment to protect my bad kidneys, bad knees, bad back, bad <insert any other part of the body>.  Except my head.  Head is fine for now, other than my nose.

Or I can go ahead and make the metal/leather equivalents look like protective gear that can mimic real armor and take the shot it if I get hit there.

Its one way or the other.  Personally, I'd hate to see plastic all over the field protecting people.  BUT...that's just me.

I wear rubber kneepads under greaves to protect my knees and stuff under a shirt under a tunic to protect my back/kidneys.  But it just goes for saying, under the rules plastic > medieval materials...

[Leaf of Redwater]

Can I say that armor is the original "safety equipment"? Can I say that to protect yourself from real-life injury in-game, you should wear game-legal protection?

Or will that get tomatoes thrown at me?

[stylgar]

Not bad. But if we allow plastic safety equipment, and we do, I see little harm in allowing stuff that poorly mimics garb.
In the case of Oisin's clams, mischief potential is limited by the fact that it usually holds a weapon
I see much sound and phooey, signifying nothing, in the words of the Bard

[Jack Stewart III]

Stylgar, safety equipment is supposed to be concealed.

Leaf, yes and no. There are somethings that we (in the modern age) can do to protect better than in the middle ages. However, for the large part I do agree. Get the historical protective gear, when at all possible.

[Fiyera]

Can I say that armor is the original "safety equipment"? Can I say that to protect yourself from real-life injury in-game, you should wear game-legal protection?

Or will that get tomatoes thrown at me?

To respond to this and to agree with Jack, yes but--- some people wear safety equipment for support of a particular joint, as opposed to padding from impact. For example, knee braces that support the joint as opposed to knee pads which pad the knee from impact... But yes there are some ways to protect yourself and have un-debatable armor. Me for example, I need something to save my bad hip from the impact of red hits and strong blue hits. I'm taking my armor-grade leather and sticking some padding of some sort on the inside to absorb shock and making myself some armor that protects me and that, in general and on the field, is obviously considered "real armor."
Anyway, my point is that it works for some, but won't work for others.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

It's more about the principle of the thing - it's hard to tell the guy in the 8oz leather helmet to take it off if we won't tell Oisín to take off his aluminum gauntlets.

Want to talk about principles of things?  How about "person a is trying to trick people in order to gain an unfair advantage, person b is trying to avoid another round of $15k surgeries".  How's that for principles? 

And on that note, I’d happily let Oisin and his gauntlets on the field at an event in my chapter.  Sure I’d do the usual thing when there’s something questionable – like the guy in armor that doesn’t necessarily look like armor – as the Herald I’d walk out ahead of time and point out the article in question to explain what it is and isn’t:

   “Usheen is not wearing hand armor, those are not armor and are only there to protect his very expensive fingers.” 

Problem solved, for my chapter at least. 

Your Millage may vary. 

But for me, having gone through multiple rounds of surgery and 18 months of PT to rebuild my left hand*, I definitely sympathize with his plight. 


* Don't know my exact costs, but my first surgery was almost $12 grand (retail), so I'm guessing I've got him beat.  And that's before my $2.2Mill rebuild.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

Nope, I gotcha beat on the hand, lol.  I got three plates and I think 14 screws, all permanent, total final ER and surgery bills were $15k and change, no ambulance necessary, plus about the same amount of PT time.  I'm actually pretty sure I have the Dagorhir record in terms of most expensive injury directly caused by fighting.

Your car crash takes the pie, though.  God I hope I never get to contest that war story.

[Judge Dredd]

Nope, I gotcha beat on the hand, lol.  I got three plates and I think 14 screws, all permanent, total final ER and surgery bills were $15k and change, no ambulance necessary, plus about the same amount of PT time.  I'm actually pretty sure I have the Dagorhir record in terms of most expensive injury directly caused by fighting.

Your car crash takes the pie, though.  God I hope I never get to contest that war story.

Nick of the Guard was shield bashed while legged and shattered his leg. 95k and 6 months of PT later, he has learned how to roll with an overzealous bash. I saw the whole thing first hand and talked with his mom about the cost. So this is not one of those friend of a friends mothers uncles cousin things.

PS. It wasn't me!!

Sorry Uh-sheen, not even in the ballpark!!

[Thorondor]

WOW Kyrax has got me beat on the one time (injury?) medical bill.  All of mine are 200k here, 100k there, 50k over there bills.  Of course we keep on fighting the best we can...can't keep a warrior down

Your car crash takes the pie, though.  God I hope I never get to contest that war story.

Agreed.  Kyrax's war story takes the cake...and the bakery.

[Fayne Erving]

Yalls insurance premiums have got to be astronomical

[Sir Mirelle of Narnia]

Oh Man I couldn't even work out how much my medical bills are, thank god for my insurance, I'm worth about 200K a month right now.

[Judge Dredd]

I could attribute my chest to Dagorhir bravado transferring to the real world. 250k a gazzillion years ago so the present value...... ouch...... my head.... math hurts!!

We should go back to scars, that's where Kyrax and I win.

[Sir Mirelle of Narnia]

Hey I'm right up there with you BH, though you win on the violence involved in getting them.

[Thorondor]

Hehe...scars are fun.  I like telling nosey kids that I got shot in a few places because of how they healed.  My most recent one looks like a second belly button (got the feeding tube out) so that's going to be fun to explain away.

And yea, I think Mirelle wins (I guess it's a win?) on medical values.

Yalls insurance premiums have got to be astronomical

My old company had 5 claims over 100k last year, 2 of them were mine.  Caused the entire company's insurance to go up by around $50/month.  WHOOPS!  But yea, premium/full coverage with low deductibles are amazing.  Thank God for insurance though.

Speaking of which...I really need to get healthy and stay that way so I can travel and meet everyone...its like I know ya but don't.

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

Damn, BH, broken femur or what?  Yeah, that's got me beat pretty damn good I'd never heard of that one.  And nah, my insurance costs are actually pretty low, I'm otherwise extremely healthy (knock on wood).  One time events like that five years ago with no long term costs associated really don't do much to your premiums now.

[Richard.]

don't we have rules that prevent people from wearing armor that doesn't look like armor? How is this not essentially the same problem?

[Fayne Erving]

Did you even read the thread?

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

Your car crash takes the pie, though.  God I hope I never get to contest that war story.

Agreed.  Kyrax's war story takes the cake...and the bakery.

May none of us contest that one, it's no fun.  And I do concede to you and Nick the battle story prize -my hand was due to a failed Amt weapon (long story and not a design currently used by them). 

And Mirelle, the only reason I know the numbers is that I spreadsheeted it all to keep track of who got paid what by insurance and what was my responsibility. Like Thorondor I'm very, very thankful for good health insurance.  As with Oisin, mine was a problem that's now over - you, we're all pulling for you to be able to get past your kidney issues. 

And Yes Richard, it is another aspect of the same issue.  Read the thread to be enlightened. 

But the important thing is that despite all of the things we've gone through, we're still getting on the field and mixing it up.  When I was in the hospital I never thought I'd be able to fight again.  But I have, and in a way having that goal has helped me to continue to recover. 

[Goats Kordatar]

6.8 - If asked, a fighter must accurately describe their current armor damage and wound status. Players may never fake death or wounds during a battle to mislead opponents.

I happen to wear non-armor bracers, partially because they look and feel awesome and partially because I lack that ability to make the wrist area look decent without them. *grumble*

If I end up fighting someone new, I will usually tell them right then that they're not armor, whether they ask or not, thus giving them no excuse for yapping about it.

[Squire Lizard]

Wow... I have nothing to say in the injury department, thank GAWD, but I will say that my first pair of bracers to support my wrists which at the time were jacked up from falling over a shield, rolling an ankle, and landing on both out stretched hands... So I just built armor that acted as a wrist support, kind of like skating wrist guards only with the support on the top instead of the bottom.

TL;DR... You CAN build really good looking armor that acts supportive as well... I wore them at Rag 19 in the Red tourny. I was asked to take off my armor, politely told them that it was also protective gear and that I wouldn't count armor, and they let it fly... Heralds really can be quite nice if you explain things to them in a nice manner instead of getting all huffy about it.

[Thorondor]

I was asked to take off my armor, politely told them that it was also protective gear and that I wouldn't count armor, and they let it fly...

Armor in a red fight you say?  That's like bringing a 22 to a gun fight...

Sorry, just rewatched Boondock Saints 2 recently

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

Strangely enough, every first world country in the world routinely brings .22's to a gunfight.   

[Dudley S. Grimes]

MOAR BULLITS

LES WAIGT

[Atalan]

Strangely enough, every first world country in the world routinely brings .22's to a gunfight.   

Butbutbutbut, it's the smallest caliber! How can it be any use? A .22 is worthless! Even at pointblank range it'll just bounce off a person's skull! </sarcasm>

Yes, I deal with people who have LARP-physics understanding of firearms. Why do you ask?

[Oisín Leathshúileach]

Because it's amusing when people only specify one dimension of a firearm's size and expect people to all assume the same thing.

Also, I think .17 HMR would beg to differ re: smallest caliber.  Depending on how you define smallest, I guess . . . some people would use smallest to mean least powerful which isn't really correct but neither is the entire correlation between size and power.

[Goats Kordatar]

Isn't the term "never bring a knife to a gun fight", not a .22?

[Arrakis]

.22 WMR is a passable Self Defense round, actually.

I wouldn't want a .22 LR in a SD situation (gimme .40+, plz), but .22 WMR is hot.

Also, .17 HMR is nonsensically fast.  It shoots SO FLAT.