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[Izec]

How to Make an Oval cross section Blue Weapon.

First, an introduction, and a caveat that I tend to be long winded with forum posts.

I've talked a couple of peeps who were interested in this design so I am posting it here.  What follows here is my oval/elliptical blue weapon design.  I'm not sure if this shape has been created and used before, but this is what I developed after trying to bridge the gap between rectangle "flat blades" and round/cylindrical blues.  My experience has always been that rounds last longer and have better foundations for stabbing tips.  I've tried multiple rectangle "flat blade" designs and none of them have lasted as long as the round design I use or this oval design.  However, admittedly, I am not up to speed on all the current rectangle flat blade designs.  I've tried some and I didn't like the results.

Regarding the oval design, this all starts with the spiral wrap design, which is what I use for my rounds.  I don't know who developed the spiral wrap, but I heard about it from this guy, who heard about it from that guy, etc.  The design makes sense and I see it as fully possible that it could have been developed a long time ago and in various places.  This oval design is a variation of the spiral wrap design, with basically just flats added to the cylinder to make it into an oval, which I then use like a rectangular "flat blade" (including calling flats if I hit with the flatter side).

Now, a further note before we begin.  I'll just say this, if you opt to try this design and then use low quality foam, well, don't expect the design to suddenly make your build magically stronger than what materials you put into it.  Garbage in, garbage out.  Use high quality foams for the best results.  I am now using MC1900 foam that I bought from Polyplastics in Austin, Texas.  If you want some of that foam you'll need to place a minimum order (I believe it is currently $75) and I think that they do ship.  Google them for contact info. 

Previously, I used Volara foam, and the previous version of this weapon lasted me 2 years of consistent use every time I took the field, which would be about 25 - 50 times a year.  After having switched to MC1900, I believe this is the highest quality foam I have worked with and I expect it to last beyond my previous Volara build.  MC1900 is similar to EVA foam, but I believe it is more tear resistant.  YMMV, especially if you use different foams.

Materials:  I am using three thicknesses of MC1900 foam, .5" and .375" and .625".
Your chosen core (I use .505" kite spar) and Dap Weldwood Contact Cement
Bi-directional strapping tape (optional)
Packing tape (optional)

Step 1 - prep your core.  I tend to roughen up the surface of the core so that the adhesive will stick to it better.  I've used rough grit sand paper, rat tail files, or sanders to get the job done.  If you don't roughen up the surface of your smooth core, the DAP may not hold as well and the design may not last as long.  Sorry, no pretty picture for this one.

Step 2 - Cut down your .5" thickness foam into a 1" strip.  Make it as long as you can, the longer the better (that's what she said!) so that you don't have to make a joint in the middle of your spiral wrap.  4+ feet long will typically work for a single blue. 

Take that 1" wide strip, DAP the side that you'll be gluing to the core, and DAP your core, too.   For the first wrap I tend to start at the top and wrap down to the handle.  You'll have to calculate what angle to start your wrap so that the wrap meets after going 1 full way around the core so that there is no gap in the wrap. 



Then keep wrapping all the way down the core to the handle (like a barber shop pole).  Try not to stretch the foam as you wrap it around core.  Due to the wrapping motion some stretching will occur, but try not to crank it down and cause undue stretching of the material.

Step 3 - Cut off the extra material on the tip so that it is flush with the end of the core, then DAP a .5" cap on the end that is the same shape as the foam and core.





And now it should look like this:



Step 4 -

Cut some strips that are as wide as the foam and the full length of your foam (including the cap you just glued on the end).  I tend to cut 4 strips total of .5" foam, and make them a little wider than my spiral wrapped core at this point because I will shape it down later.  Glue 2 of the strips down on the sides of the blade to make it like a "flat" blade weapon (one for each side).



Step 5 - Cap that foam.  I use .625" foam for the remaining caps.

Step 6- Glue down 2 more strips for a total of 4, again capping at the end.



At this point, yes, I realize that my weapon blade looks ugly and amateurish.  I tend to cut the strips a bit wider than needed and then clean it up and shape it by using a sander.  I got my sander from Harbor Freight.



Step 7 - Sand that baby down (or you can use scissors/knife if you're patient and skillful) to shape it so that the outer edge blade is beveled.







Step 8 - Spiral wrap another layer of foam, this time going in the opposite direction of the previous wrap.  I tend to use .375" thickness here at about 3 or 4" wide.  Again, try to make your strip as long as possible (5+ feet) and start at the tip of the weapon so that you don't have to make a joint in the middle of the striking surface of your weapon.   



If you do run out of foam and have to make a joint, hopefully your joint will be towards the bottom of the weapon away from the main striking area on the upper part of your weapon.  I will cut down the strip to make sure the joint falls on the flat part of the blade.  I cut another strip the same thickness and width and glue it to the end of the last strip to continue the wrap all the way down to the handle.  Then I cover the joint with bidirectional strapping tape for maximum strength. I make sure I do not put the strapping tape on the striking edges of the weapon.



Step 9 - Cap it again (I use .625" again). 



Step 10 - Finish the weapon as you see fit.  Some people will leave it as it is and put a cover on, but I wrap my weapons in packing tape to increase the life of the weapon.   Some games frown on using packing tape on the weapon, but in my opinion I believe that is silly.  When I do tape the packing tape down, I tape over the end of the weapon first, then tape down the packing tape longways down the blade to run against the spiral.  At this point I will also wrap the packing tape in a few circles around the caps/tip for just a little added strength to that area that will end up taking most of the abuse.

There ya go!

If you have any questions hit me up on Facebook ( Izec Cezi, http://www.facebook.com/people/Izec-Cezi/100002158261156 ) since I don't really visit the forums regularly.  And if you have any suggestions on how to increase the life of this type of build feel free to contact me (such as I've heard of people gluing layers of fabric in between foam layers, but I've never tried it).

***FINAL NOTE:  If you don't want to make an oval weapon, you can just make a round/cylindrical blue weapon by skipping the flat strips and just adding more spiral wraps (going in opposite directions). In my opinion, this cylindrical blue design in the most stable, longest lasting design of all as long as you don't mind using a round blue weapon.

[Alric]

Thanks for sharing, this is a very interesting design.

[Kade]

Well...yea if wrapped my sword blades in packing tape they would probably last forever too...

Also...spiral wrapping your outer layer will cause the foam to wear unevenly making parts of your sword fail before other parts. You will end up with sweet spots in the blade that will hit super hard, and other spots that will hit just fine. This becomes a problem when checking the blade. You may not always find these sweet spots and think the weapon is just fine, then go out onto the field and core someone with it.

[Alric]

Looking at the tutorial, there are three layers of .5 crosslinked foam beneath that final spiral wrap, which is to say more and higher quality foam than on your typical blue foam sword. I doubt it would hit 'super hard' even if you left the entire final wrap off (which seems to be there more for structural purposes than for necessary padding?).

I'd be more uncomfortable with the final wrap being spiraled if it didn't have those two solid strips of foam beneath it, though I've never tried this design.

[Twolf]

Yes, I was thinking that this seemed unnecessarily wide for a blue sword.  You have almost 2" of foam per side, and combined with the core, you have a sword that has an overall width of 4.25" at minimum.  I'd suspect that might be why your swords last as long as they do.

But I applaud the ingenuity, effort, and your willingness to show how you do your swords.

[Sven Kolfinsson]

Interesting...I know a guy who spirals the first layer on curved-cored weapons just to get a better hold because of the extra surface area gained by doing so but I never thought about doing it for the blades as well. Good read.

[Predak]

I've personally fought with and fought against this sword, it's an amazing sword, and they really aren't that big.

I fought against it all day on the battlefield and nobody had a bad hit from it. it performs beautifully.

I personally plan on building one or two myself.

[Mikhail]

Out of curiosity, have you tried box+blade layer+taco/spiral wrap? That'd reduce blade dimension, anyway.

[Kade]

Doesnt the wrapping of the weapon in tape sorta fail the weapn? Not to be an ass but I was always told that was a nono. I realise the rule is ambiguous but it is there.

[Gorbag]

There is no rule in Dag that says you can't have tape on the striking surface of a weapon.

[Casimir Glassjaw]

If you have any questions hit me up on Facebook ( Izec Cezi, http://www.facebook.com/people/Izec-Cezi/100002158261156 ) since I don't really visit the forums regularly.  And if you have any suggestions on how to increase the life of this type of build feel free to contact me (such as I've heard of people gluing layers of fabric in between foam layers, but I've never tried it).

People.  Feel free to read the post before posting questions and comments on the content of the tutorial.
Olos and Bard from Black Company and Jari of Free Cities all handled and examined one of these at Gates of Summer and can speak of their first hand accounts.  The weapons checkers at the event didn't even know it wasn't a rectangular crosssection sword.

@Kade: If you think putting packing tape on your swords will make them last longer, then give it a shot.  Additionally, Izec is very thurough in checking his weapons and consistantly catches soft spots in check before they can be discovered on the field.
@Twolf: Your measurements are not taking into account the foam compression from the spiral wrapped layers.  It is not that wide really, over 3" for sure, but IIRC it is the same width as a sword I have that is 1/2" SCH 80 PVC and 3 layers of blue foam.  I will ask Izec the exact dimensions on the sword for confirmation and post them when I find out.  Try building one yourself, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
@Sven: I know a few people that spiral wrap the base layer for rectangular cross-section swords, it helps prevent the blade from twisting off the core.
@Mikhail: He has done single strips for the edges under the final spiral which results a much more rounded final product.  I can't speak on his behalf as to which he prefers and why.  Feel free to hit him up on facebook.
@Kade again: There is no rule that states you can not have tape on the striking surface of your weapons as long as there is a cloth cover over it.  Were there a rule that stated that, alpha tech weapons would be illegal as per the current MOA but that is not the case.  As a general rule of thumb putting tape that greatly affects compression (like duct tape) on the striking surface will result in it failing hir check.  I have been putting PD on the striking edge of my weapons for years now to improve the durability of the foam.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

I've never been a fan of tape on the striking surface of weapons, but what really pisses me off, is stupid reasons cooked up by weapons checkers to auto fail weapons. If a weapon meets or exceeds weight balance and dimension regs, it should continue on to a hit test for a final pass/fail.

I would imagine the aerodynamics of an oval shape might balance out the added bulk.

[Dralin]

How much does a finished one of these weigh?  Very cool design by the way

[Kade]

I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't put packing tape on the striking surface...and without a pic, its hard to tell if he is doing it here, but if you wrap your whole weapon in packing tape...Your turning it into a brick. Any open cell on that sword at all now no longer functions like open cell. Closed cell is less effected, but ends up being much stiffer because its being held in place by tape.

A few pieces for structural reasons sure...but wrapping your weapon completely in tape worries me.

If this is suddenly a thing and weapons are permitted to be wrapped in tape completely...then cool, but its never been permitted as far as i know, and its definitely not encouraged, least not by anyone i have ever talked to.

[Alric]

It's a common A-game trick for making pool noodle swords last longer. It doesn't add firmness in the same way that wrapping in duct tape does, but can add some sting to a weapon. I, like you, would hesitate to use it on a dag weapon, but Izec's experience here suggests that it can sometimes be applied successfully to our style of weapons.

[Kade]

It's a common A-game trick for making pool noodle swords last longer. It doesn't add firmness in the same way that wrapping in duct tape does, but can add some sting to a weapon. I, like you, would hesitate to use it on a dag weapon, but Izec's experience here suggests that it can sometimes be applied successfully to our style of weapons.

Yea. i have seen some A game weapons where thats done...and it does work nicely for lighter weapons.

My main concern is that a standard hit test won't pick up the difference. The difference may only become apparent when you really wail on someone. Since a tape wrapped weapon doesn't compress in the same way as ours, more energy would be directed into the person rather than the weapon at higher speeds and hit strengths.

Not to mention that when a checker runs his hands down along the blade to check for gaps, he won't feel any even if there are simply because the tape is giving back the false impression of a solid blade.

I just think a full tape wrapped blade adds too many unknowns into the mix for a checker to safely pass it. I think it needs to be tested fully before these things show up on the field. I would certainly test it differently than i would a normal sword if one showed up on my field.

[Thorpe1]

I have a omni blade thats a decade old and passes at the local realm here as well as in that A-game and that Dagorhir.

the Core is kite spar, 3 layers of MC foam that's been spiral wrapped.

wrap 1 layer up and down, put on a cap
wrap 2 layer up and down (opposite of first) add a cap
Wrap 3 layer up and down (opposite of last) add a cap.

Dap/Double sided carpet tape whatever you want to secure the foam in the spirals. Packaging tape the outside of the stick, fit with a snug cloth cover.

my stick weights in at .5 over minimum.

[Malpan]

My main concern is that a standard hit test won't pick up the difference. The difference may only become apparent when you really wail on someone. Since a tape wrapped weapon doesn't compress in the same way as ours, more energy would be directed into the person rather than the weapon at higher speeds and hit strengths.

A standard hit test == wailing on someone. The "hard" hit of a hit test should be the maximum speed and hit strength that the weapon will ever be used on the field.

No reason to test such a weapon differently. That's the point of the hit test.

[Mikhail]

As long as you didn't compress the foam (i.e., as long as you laid the tape over the foam with no added tension) and put a cloth cover over the striking surface, I can't imagine that wrapping a weapon in packing tape would cause it to hit too much harder. If Izec says his sticks have been passing check, I'll believe him.

[Syr Olaf]

A standard hit test == wailing on someone. The "hard" hit of a hit test should be the maximum speed and hit strength that the weapon will ever be used on the field.

No reason to test such a weapon differently. That's the point of the hit test.

You are right and wrong. The hard hit test is subjective to those swinging and receiving the hit. Some people testing weapons can only acheive speed and strength to what thier capabilities are. Any hit test in a good checkers hands must keep in mind that the hardest hitter hitting smallest person will not injure them. Thats where people claim that someone is hitting too hard when in reality the weapons checker did not check the weapon to compensate for this. Keep in mind I can check a weapon think it is fine to use on me.....but I will fail it because it is not safe to use on some one smaller. This is the sign of a good checker doing a hit test. This is why Dag can never go to a hit only test until we can get checkers to be more consistant in the hit test.

[Arrakis]

You are right and wrong. The hard hit test is subjective to those swinging and receiving the hit. Some people testing weapons can only acheive speed and strength to what thier capabilities are. Any hit test in a good checkers hands must keep in mind that the hardest hitter hitting smallest person will not injure them. Thats where people claim that someone is hitting too hard when in reality the weapons checker did not check the weapon to compensate for this. Keep in mind I can check a weapon think it is fine to use on me.....but I will fail it because it is not safe to use on some one smaller. This is the sign of a good checker doing a hit test. This is why Dag can never go to a hit only test until we can get checkers to be more consistant in the hit test.

Why does size of human being hit matter?

[PhotoJoe]

You are right and wrong. The hard hit test is subjective to those swinging and receiving the hit. Some people testing weapons can only acheive speed and strength to what thier capabilities are. Any hit test in a good checkers hands must keep in mind that the hardest hitter hitting smallest person will not injure them. Thats where people claim that someone is hitting too hard when in reality the weapons checker did not check the weapon to compensate for this. Keep in mind I can check a weapon think it is fine to use on me.....but I will fail it because it is not safe to use on some one smaller. This is the sign of a good checker doing a hit test. This is why Dag can never go to a hit only test until we can get checkers to be more consistant in the hit test.

Why does size of human being hit matter?

Smaller bones break easier?

[Syr Olaf]

Ok HArdest hitter hitting the frailest person. Sorry is that more poltically correct.

[Malpan]

This is why I'm usually a back, not a hitter.

[Rafiq's Slightly Used Camels]

A good back is someone who can judge how that hit would feel against one of the frailest fighters on the field.

[Cassin]

In this design, is the packing tape spiral wrapped or in vertical strips?

[Casimir Glassjaw]

If you have any questions hit me up on Facebook ( Izec Cezi, http://www.facebook.com/people/Izec-Cezi/100002158261156 ) since I don't really visit the forums regularly.  And if you have any suggestions on how to increase the life of this type of build feel free to contact me (such as I've heard of people gluing layers of fabric in between foam layers, but I've never tried it).

[Falkrix]

Do want.

[Krix Mercades]

Ok so I'm hoping this isn't violating some forum rule about links.

The following is a link to Buckley Industries, they are the ones who manufacture MC foam.

http://www.buckleyind.com/

You're looking for Sentinel Microcell. IIRC, Izec uses MC 1900. I'm planning on trying out some 2900 in my next builds.

[Falkrix]

Thanks Krix, I'll definitely take a look. Though Lord knows I have more than enou foam right now...

[Izec]

Thanks, Casimir, for fielding some of the questions while I was gone.  He's used this very sword for a couple of months and said he didn't have any issues with it.

In this design, is the packing tape spiral wrapped or in vertical strips?

The packing tape is not spiral wrapped.  I run it in vertical strips to go against the direction of the spiral.  It isn't truly perpendicular, but my thought is that going in the most perpendicular direction possible works best to eliminate tearing/shearing of the foam.

It seems some people are against taping down the surface of the weapon with packing tape.  I can understand the trepidation from those who don't do it.  Please keep in mind that I do not use the packing tape to add tension or compression to the foam.  I basically use it as a "skin" as an aim to keep the foam from tearing.  Also, I use the cheapest, thinnest packing tape I can find.  Duck brand packing tape is too thick, in my opinion.  I have been taping my weapons for so long that I'm not even 100% sure it is really necessary now that I'm using better foams and construction methods, but I can tell you that my anecdotal evidence demonstrates to me that I have never had the foam on a weapon tear from the outside.  All weapon fails that I've had happen for the last several years have always been due to the foam breaking down on the inside from impact with the core.  I taking a bit of hiatus from Dag right now, but in the future when I make some more weapons I think I'll try one without the packing tape.

Out of curiosity, have you tried box+blade layer+taco/spiral wrap? That'd reduce blade dimension, anyway.

I'm not familiar with that build off the top of my head.  I could be that I'm not hip on the lingo, or just not understanding.  Is there a tutorial or a visual representation that you can link to?

As for the dimensions of the weapon I just measured it an it is about 3.375" on the flat side and 1.675" on the narrow side.  Kind of wide, especially considering the minimum is 1.25", but I wouldn't feel safe using a weapon with that small of a profile.  I think the oval shape helps aerodynamically.

If you notice in one of the pictures before I put on the final spiral you can see a ruler I put against the flat part of the weapon, and from the angle you can kind of tell it measures a little under 3".  Some foam compression takes place when you spiral the foam, though, and I ended up with the 3.375".  YMMV.

[Arrakis]

I think the oval shape helps aerodynamically.

It shouldn't.  Ask me why somewhere else if you really care.

[Twolf]

I think the oval shape helps aerodynamically.

It shouldn't.  Ask me why somewhere else if you really care.

I'll bite.  Why won't an oval shape help be more aerodynamic?

[Arrakis]

I think the oval shape helps aerodynamically.

It shouldn't.  Ask me why somewhere else if you really care.

I'll bite.  Why won't an oval shape help be more aerodynamic?

somewhere else

It's complicated and I don't want to confuse people with too much science.