Topic: Metal Armor (Read 4154 times)

Cyrus Al-Hazra · « **Reply #100 on:** April 10, 2012, 12:53:47 pm »

okay i have to say this after reading this whole tread..... this a foam padded fighting game based off of historical eras and LOTR. which means fantasy is involved. now as for period functional armor.. if you want that join the Adrian Empire they are a live steel fighting group you must have period functional armor.so with that said wear what the rules say or go to war council and say your peace but, things are how they are so be better or just have fun. **** if i wanted to deal with a period Nazi I would be in the Living history groups or the SCA(which trust me they have many faults)

and i do not care if my grammar is perfect.
have a nice day

Blackhawk The Apollyon · « **Reply #101 on:** April 10, 2012, 12:56:44 pm »

Good Day!

Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight · « **Reply #102 on:** April 10, 2012, 12:56:57 pm »

The problem with your poor grammar is I am a little confused as to what it is you are talking about.

Blackhawk The Apollyon · « **Reply #103 on:** April 10, 2012, 12:57:28 pm »

I said 'good day' sir!

Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight · « **Reply #104 on:** April 10, 2012, 12:59:34 pm »

You know I was just about to work on your sword... Doesn't seem so important now....

Blackhawk The Apollyon · « **Reply #105 on:** April 10, 2012, 01:06:23 pm »

Hurumph!
*slams door*

Alric · « **Reply #106 on:** April 10, 2012, 01:11:44 pm »

Quote from: Cyrus Al-Hazra on April 10, 2012, 12:53:47 pm

okay i have to say this after reading this whole tread..... this a foam padded fighting game based off of historical eras and LOTR. which means fantasy is involved. now as for period functional armor.. if you want that join the Adrian Empire they are a live steel fighting group you must have period functional armor.so with that said wear what the rules say or go to war council and say your peace but, things are how they are so be better or just have fun. **** if i wanted to deal with a period Nazi I would be in the Living history groups or the SCA(which trust me they have many faults)

and i do not care if my grammar is perfect.
have a nice day

If I wanted to deal with a period Nazi, I'd join a WWII larp

.

No one's knocking fantasy armor here, anywhere in this thread - I'm not sure where you're getting that. People are as you say talking about how armor should be functional, but all the armor in Tolkien and other high fantasy books is functional (well, most of it is - the young knight of the Vale that Sir Gregor kills in the tournament in A Game of Thrones died because his gorget fit badly, but that proves the point that function matters in good fantasy).

Magnus · « **Reply #107 on:** April 10, 2012, 01:41:33 pm »

I should add that the armor in the LotR movies is also functional, though the GoT TV series seems to feature only armor that is ugly and fits poorly, as well as not being very protective. So there are cases in which basing armor off a source will yield bad armor.

Dust & Bones · « **Reply #108 on:** April 10, 2012, 04:56:05 pm »

Quote from: Alric on April 10, 2012, 01:11:44 pm

If I wanted to deal with a period Nazi, I'd join a WWII larp .

Not gonna lie, I laughed out loud here

Kelmain · « **Reply #109 on:** April 11, 2012, 12:28:31 am »

I understand that many people argue that they don't care how ineffective their armour is/would be, however, I thought some might be interested in a comparison of replica mail types. So I put together my first ever, and quite possibly last, youtube video. FTR, these blows were harder than they look from the close perspective of the camera. Much of the screen in which you could see the swings was lost during video conversion.

If you aren't interested in wasting 24 minutes of your life, jump to 21:45 for a telling test of Dag legal 16 Ga, 5/16" butted mail.

http://youtu.be/XHh4nwWpawI

Jack Stewart III · « **Reply #110 on:** April 11, 2012, 01:58:37 am »

That was very interesting, I especially liked the comparison between 12 Ga butted and 16Ga riveted. It is nice to see that it takes dramatically thicker rings for butted maille to perform comparably to riveted maille. I would like to point out however, that 16 Ga (butted) is still armor, it does still does offer some protection, albeit far more limited than the heavier maille. Not all men-at-arms needed/ wanted the extra protection, at the cost of added weight.

It is my opinion that the way the rules are written, I.e. in the spirit of how the game is played, that 'armor' in Dagorhir is meant to represent 'lighter' armor, rather than heavier. Solid blows against armor only minimize damage, not ward it off entirely...as a 12 Ga (butted) or 16 Ga (riveted) would. Practically speaking, most (blue) swords would be rendered nearly ineffective against said 'heavy' maille, when properly padded. Certainly far more than what the 16 Ga (butted) could take!

TL;DR: IMO 16 Ga (butted) is fine for Dagorhir, but if I'm going to fight with live steel, I'm going 16 Ga (riveted) or better!

Ravus · « **Reply #111 on:** April 11, 2012, 06:23:35 am »

Quote from: Jack Stewart III on April 11, 2012, 01:58:37 am

Not all men-at-arms needed/ wanted the extra protection, at the cost of added weight.

Right, because when *I'm* looking at garments that'll keep me from having my gut split open, I opt for the lighter stuff. I mean really now, who would ever chose the extra 5-10 pounds of weight just to better protect their vital organs? it's silly really. I for one, prefer to run into battle in a light cotton tunic and my underwear; sure the protection's not as good, but hot-damn is it nice and breezy.

Danoth the Tyrant · « **Reply #112 on:** April 11, 2012, 12:20:56 pm »

more like people couldn't afford it....... just sayin.

Jack Stewart III · « **Reply #113 on:** April 11, 2012, 01:54:43 pm »

Quote from: Danoth on April 11, 2012, 12:20:56 pm

more like people couldn't afford it...

That too.

Quote from: Ravus on April 11, 2012, 06:23:35 am

Quote from: Jack Stewart III on April 11, 2012, 01:58:37 am
Not all men-at-arms needed/ wanted the extra protection, at the cost of added weight.
Right, because when *I'm* looking at garments that'll keep me from having my gut split open, I opt for the lighter stuff. I mean really now, who would ever chose the extra 5-10 pounds of weight just to better protect their vital organs? it's silly really. I for one, prefer to run into battle in a light cotton tunic and my underwear; sure the protection's not as good, but hot-damn is it nice and breezy.

You know, not all foot soldiers are heavy-infantrymen? There is such a thing as light-infantry... Men who either couldn't afford the better gear, or those who opted for greater mobility. Mostly it was an economic thing...

Magnus · « **Reply #114 on:** April 11, 2012, 01:55:58 pm »

Well, you also have to consider that the economics of the past were somewhat different. Owning armor, for someone who fought in his feudal lord's military force, was basically like owning a computer would be today, i.e., you need to have one or else you will be unable to function in some important ways.

Kelmain · « **Reply #115 on:** April 11, 2012, 10:02:25 pm »

Of course not everyone was, wants to be, or should be a heavy armoured soldier. And if I was looking at a professional light infantryman wearing a layered linen jack or padded gambeson standing next to a poser “armoured infantryman” wearing ineffective costume armour, which one would I choose to fight with? Hmmm.

I've said before, armour IS garb. And costume armour is weak garb.

Jack Stewart III · « **Reply #116 on:** April 12, 2012, 01:40:14 am »

Again, 16 Ga butted is no more 'costume armor', than 12 Ga butted. It is 'light maille', designed to offer some protection at minimal weight - very much like leather. It is to protect against light and incidental strikes, and perhaps minimalize injury from a solid strike.

12 Ga butted and 18/16 Ga riveted maille are 'heavy maille' designed to protect against all but the heaviest strikes, when properly padded.

Let's face it, 16 Ga butted - when properly maintained - looks far better than not wearing armor at all. Also, at a distance, telling butted maille from riveted maille becomes difficult to the untrained eye. I'm sorry, but if you dislike 'light maille' that much, all you can do is advocate at a local level that people get better gear, because I don't see 16 Ga disappearing anytime soon at a national level...

Kelmain · « **Reply #117 on:** April 12, 2012, 08:31:18 am »

We'll just have to disagree about chain I can pull apart easier than 5oz linen cloth being armour, but I don't expect to eliminate 16 Ga butted armour. I was prompted to comment to oppose the suggestion that 18 gauge butted mail should be allowed. If I convince people not to further reduce the armour requirements I will have achieved my principal objective.

Kelmain out.

Cyrus Al-Hazra · « **Reply #118 on:** April 12, 2012, 08:35:00 am »

i agree 18g butted is crap.

Jack Stewart III · « **Reply #119 on:** April 12, 2012, 04:08:46 pm »

I do agree with both of you that 16 Ga butted is flimsy as all hell, and I too will vote against allowing 18 Ga butted if proposed and if I am one of Anvard's Rep's this year. However, I also oppose removing 16 Ga butted, unless other armor is held to the same high standards. I.e. Leather armor must be hardened (and a certain thickness), and splinted/ studded leather must contain at least one material of legal construction, etc...

Odran · « **Reply #120 on:** April 12, 2012, 06:43:29 pm »

Depending on which of the two contradictory rules you assume to take precedence, 18 gauge butted chain may already legal.

Dust & Bones · « **Reply #121 on:** April 12, 2012, 06:45:41 pm »

according to the chart, 18g butted is legal at 1/4" diameter.

Kelmain · « **Reply #122 on:** April 12, 2012, 10:01:51 pm »

Quote from: Dust & Bones on April 12, 2012, 06:45:41 pm

according to the chart, 18g butted is legal at 1/4" diameter.

True. Rule 5.2.3 and the chainmail chart conflict and Piekko suggested clarifying them by simply stating that all 18 Ga mail of any type or diameter should be OK. I'd clarify by throwing out the chart, which makes the 16Ga 7/16" riveted mail I tested above illegal (as well as anyone elses riveted mail that is over 3/8"), and put in its place the simple requirement that the rings not be able to be opened by pulling on them.

Jack Stewart III · « **Reply #123 on:** April 12, 2012, 10:16:32 pm »

Are you guys familiar with Hanzo/ Odran's Armor Rewrite? Thoughts? (Odran exempted, if you don't know about it, we're in trouble!)

Odran · « **Reply #124 on:** April 12, 2012, 10:39:04 pm »

Quote from: Kelmain on April 12, 2012, 10:01:51 pm

Quote from: Dust & Bones on April 12, 2012, 06:45:41 pm
according to the chart, 18g butted is legal at 1/4" diameter.
True. Rule 5.2.3 and the chainmail chart conflict and Piekko suggested clarifying them by simply stating that all 18 Ga mail of any type or diameter should be OK. I'd clarify by throwing out the chart, which makes the 16Ga 7/16" riveted mail I tested above illegal (as well as anyone elses riveted mail that is over 3/8"), and put in its place the simple requirement that the rings not be able to be opened by pulling on them.

7/16" is quite loose for 16 gauge. Even 5/16" is probably loose by historical standards. I believe the typical ID on historical 16 gauge (riveted) chainmail is around 1/4" or 6.5 mm, but I digress.

If the rules don't list a maximum ring diameter, what is to prevent someone from making a suit out of 12 gauge wire with 2" diameter rings?

Dudley S. Grimes · « **Reply #125 on:** April 12, 2012, 11:10:27 pm »

Quote from: Kelmain on April 11, 2012, 10:02:25 pm

I've said before, armour IS garb. And costume armour is weak garb.

Armor is never garb.

Silk · « **Reply #126 on:** April 13, 2012, 06:19:30 am »

What Dudders means is that you must have at least basic passing garb beneath any armor. Which makes armor is more an accessory. You can't walk out in cut-off tee and sweats with armor over it an call it garb. No matter how badass your armor is.

Kelmain · « **Reply #127 on:** April 13, 2012, 07:31:34 am »

Quote from: Silk on April 13, 2012, 06:19:30 am

What Dudders means is that you must have at least basic passing garb beneath any armor. Which makes armor is more an accessory. You can't walk out in cut-off tee and sweats with armor over it an call it garb. No matter how badass your armor is.

Just so. Armour, even good armour, by itself does not equal passing garb. However, adding good, character appropriate armour is a garb upgrade in almost all instances IMO.

Dust & Bones · « **Reply #128 on:** April 13, 2012, 07:43:08 am »

Quote from: Kelmain on April 12, 2012, 10:01:51 pm

...the simple requirement that the rings not be able to be opened by pulling on them.

This is so subjective as to be worthless.

I haven't looked through the proposed rewrite in awhile, what's it say about chain?

Jack Stewart III · « **Reply #129 on:** April 14, 2012, 01:34:02 am »

Apparently, 18 Ga butted is legal, according to this version. (He's going off the table 5.2.7, not 5.2.3...)
*Is Disappoint* :|

Quote from: Kelmain on April 13, 2012, 07:31:34 am

Quote from: Silk on April 13, 2012, 06:19:30 am
What Dudders means is that you must have at least basic passing garb beneath any armor. Which makes armor is more an accessory. You can't walk out in cut-off tee and sweats with armor over it an call it garb. No matter how badass your armor is.
Just so. Armour, even good armour, by itself does not equal passing garb. However, adding good, character appropriate armour is a garb upgrade in almost all instances IMO.

I would remind that good - I.e. covering armor - does a lot to hide the garb underneath. I wear nothing but padding and a plain long-tunic under my maille, and no offense to Ilsa whom sewed them, but Jack would never be caught dead in something so plain, even with his reserved standards! Its no excuse to wear failing garb, but armor is no less garb than a belt-flag, or a pouch. It is non-essential, but certainly garb nonetheless!

Richard. · « **Reply #130 on:** April 14, 2012, 04:44:23 am »

I think armor is not garb is about as useful as hit hard take light. The phrase has good intentions but doesn't actually meet it's goal when put in practice. For "armor is not garb" the real intent is "armor does not excuse failing garb". If you are wearing a tshirt and it is showing that looks just as bad and not medieval as if you simply wore just the tshirt. In this view armor is garb but if you wear white sneakers your garb fails anyway- same with a tshirt or jeans or anything else, and just like anything else garb wise if you can't see it it's not a problem.

Dudley S. Grimes · « **Reply #131 on:** April 14, 2012, 02:58:50 pm »

Armor is not garb.

Dust & Bones · « **Reply #132 on:** April 14, 2012, 03:50:31 pm »

"Armor is not garb" means "You need to be wearing passing garb under your armor"

I don't really care if you're wearing jean shorts under your hakama, I do care if you're wearing nothing on top but underarmor and chainmail.

Dudley S. Grimes · « **Reply #133 on:** April 15, 2012, 01:51:04 pm »

If I can see jean shorts through the open side panels of jigima pants, that is not garb.

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Author Topic: Metal Armor (Read 4154 times)