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Author Topic: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1  (Read 1367 times)

Odran

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Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« on: April 13, 2012, 06:26:00 pm »
UPDATE 5/8/12 It appears that the consensus is that 18 gauge butted chainmail is now illegal. In case I an wrong, there is both a proposal with forbids 18 gauge butted chainmail, and variant which allows it. Also, I specified the minimum wire diameters for what counts as "12 gauge", "14 gauge", or "16 gauge" chainmail when relevant. The specified diameter is midway between the nominal value of the gauge, and the nominal value of the next smallest gauge.

18 gauge is a slight exception. It should be .044" by that algorithm, but is specified as .043. The .043 value was selected as it is the minimum spec for 18 gauge mild steel sheet metal. Or rather, it is the min spec rounded down to the next thousandth of an inch.



I removed the "single dowel rod test" to for chainmail, because, although it would make weapon checking easier, it would significantly change chainmail diameter checks, outlawing most 12 gauge suits and legalizing very loose 18 gauge butted suits.

The point of this rewrite is to clean up the language, while leaving the rules more or less as they are. Some noncontroversial rule changes are included, such as allowing 14 gauge or heavier metal helmets, but the overall goal is clarify, rather than change, the rules.

My current rewrite proposal is as follows:



5.1.14 - Rigid body armor including helmets must not have projections which protrude more than 1/2 inch from the armor itself. Projections include spikes, horns, and other forms of rigid decoration. Neither aventails nor brims, nasals, and crests which do not terminate in points or spikes are considered to be projections.

5.1.15 All armor must have safely smooth and rounded edges for safety. All exposed corners must be rounded so as not to be sharp.

5.1.16 - Armor must not be able to catch any appendages such as fingers, within reasonable combat circumstances

5.1.17 - Armor must be inspected and passed by checkers or heralds at each event it is worn at.

5.2 - Metal Armor:

5.2.1 - Metal armor may be made of alloys primarily consisting of iron, copper, or titanium (such as steel, bronze, and brass). No other metals (such as aluminum) are allowed as armor.

5.2.2 - The minimum thickness of metal armor is 18 gauge, or a minimum thickness of .043". The intent of this rule is to forbid 19 gauge or thinner metal armor, not to search for armor which may be less in .043" thick at points due to metal working.

5.2.3 - The minimum wire thickness for riveted, punched, welded, or otherwise "non-butted"  chain mail is 18 gauge in Standard Wire Gauge (SWG) measuring system, or a minimum diameter of .043". The minimum wire thickness for butted chain mail is 16 gauge SWG, or a minimum diameter of .060".

5.2.4 - Rigid metal hand, knee or elbow armor is forbidden (ring or chainmail is permitted).

5.2.5 Metal helmets may not have non-period grills attached to them.

5.2.6 The maximum nominal inner ring diameter for standard 4-in-1 weave chainmail shall be: 1/2" (12.7 mm) for 12 gauge (.100" or greater wire diameter) mail, 3/8" (9.5 mm) for 14 gauge (.076" or greater wire diameter) mail and riveted, punched, welded, or otherwise "non-butted" 16 or 18 gauge mail, and 5/16" (8 mm) for butted 16 gauge mail.

(rule #'s 5.2.7 - 5.2.10 removed due to re-numbering and rule condensing)



Variant proposal legalizing 18 gauge butted mail:



5.1.14 - Rigid body armor including helmets must not have projections which protrude more than 1/2 inch from the armor itself. Projections include spikes, horns, and other forms of rigid decoration. Neither aventails nor brims, nasals, and crests which do not terminate in points or spikes are considered to be projections.

5.1.15 All armor must have safely smooth and rounded edges for safety. All exposed corners must be rounded so as not to be sharp.

5.1.16 - Armor must not be able to catch any appendages such as fingers, within reasonable combat circumstances

5.1.17 - Armor must be inspected and passed by checkers or heralds at each event it is worn at.

5.2 - Metal Armor:

5.2.1 - Metal armor may be made of alloys primarily consisting of iron, copper, or titanium (such as steel, bronze, and brass). No other metals (such as aluminum) are allowed as armor.

5.2.2 - The minimum thickness of metal armor is 18 gauge, or a minimum thickness of .043". The intent of this rule is to forbid 19 gauge or thinner metal armor, not to search for armor which may be less in .043" thick at points due to metal working.

5.2.3 - The minimum wire thickness for chain mail is 18 gauge in Standard Wire Gauge (SWG) measuring system, or a minimum diameter of .043".

5.2.4 - Rigid metal hand, knee or elbow armor is forbidden (ring or chainmail is permitted).

5.2.5 Metal helmets may not have non-period grills attached to them.

5.2.6 The maximum nominal inner ring diameter for standard 4-in-1 weave chainmail shall be: 1/2" (12.7 mm) for 12 gauge (.100" or greater wire diameter) mail, 3/8" (9.5 mm) for 14 (.076" or greater wire diameter) gauge mail and riveted, punched, welded, or otherwise "non-butted" 16 or 18 gauge mail, 5/16" (8 mm) for butted 16 (.060" or greater wire diameter) gauge mail, and 1/4" (6.35 mm) for butted 18 gauge mail.

(rule #'s 5.2.7 - 5.2.10 removed due to re-numbering and rule condensing)


Rule 5.2.6 mirrors the table, in the current ruleset. It allows 8 mm 16 gauge butted chain, which is a hair bigger than 5/16": 8 mm is .3150" while 5/16" is .3125". The metric equivalents are added to make purchasing chainmail over the internet somewhat easier. Ice Falcon armory and most places that sell cheap butted mail generally show ring diameters in metric, although TheRingLord's sizes are in fractional inches.

Ideally, I'd like to have a system in the MOA to convert nominal ID to actual ID's. I believe nominal ID of a ring is the diameter of the mandrel rod the ring was made on. TheRingLord does list the actual ID's of his rings, however, his rings seem to be closer to nominal i.d. than is typical. As an example, his 5/16" 16 gauge galvanized ring is .325", or 4% over nominal. Typical "8 mm" 16 gauge galvanized rings are 8.7 mm, or about 9% over nominal. I believe the intention of the rules is to allow a person with no special knowledge to determine if a given set of chainmail is legal or not based on its nominal/advertised specifications.

Regarding the legality of 18 gauge butted mail, it is my assertion that it is currently legal per rule 5.2.7. The table in rule 5.2.7 does contradict rule 5.2.3 & 5.2.5 regarding 18 gauge butted mail; however, I believe the table would take precedence.

On to less controversial topics, I switched back to measuring primarily is gauges. .043" is the thinnest any 18 gauge sheet metal should be, and low enough to allow "narrow" 18 gauge wire, while still forbidding anything thinner.

Links to previous threads on this rewrite:

"Rewrite 2.0" Thread
Hazno's Original Thread

<edit corrected any obvious typo 4/16/12>
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 06:41:19 pm by Odran »
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2012, 01:24:33 am »
I'm not going to lie, I do not like the idea of 18 Ga butted maille... Unlike 16 Ga, 18 Ga readily falls to pieces in Dag combat, even when the rings are 3/16th" ID!
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2012, 04:47:09 am »
That's not the point of this though, I'd suggest making a separate proposal. The important thing to do now is work out the current rules before making changes
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Odran

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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 10:11:07 am »
Here is the rule change that would be proposed if it is determined that 18 gauge butted chainmail is not legal by the current rule set.



5.1.14 - Rigid body armor including helmets must not have projections which protrude more than 1/2 inch from the armor itself. Projections include spikes, horns, and other forms of rigid decoration. Neither aventails nor brims, nasals, and crests which do not terminate in points or spikes are considered to be projections.

5.1.15 All armour must have safely smooth and rounded edges for safety. All exposed corners must be rounded so as not to be sharp.

5.1.16 - Armor must not be able to catch any appendages such as fingers, within reasonable combat circumstances

5.1.17 - Armor must be inspected and passed by checkers or heralds at each event it is worn at.

5.2 - Metal Armor:

5.2.1 - Metal armor may be made of alloys primarily consisting of iron, copper, or titanium (such as steel, bronze, and brass). No other metals (such as aluminum) are allowed as armor.

5.2.2 - The minimum thickness of metal armor is 18 gauge, or a minimum thickness of .043". The intent of this rule is to forbid 19 gauge or thinner metal armor, not to search for armor which may be less in .043" thick at points due to metal working.

5.2.3 - The minimum wire thickness for riveted, punched, welded, or otherwise "non-butted"  chain mail is 18 gauge in Standard Wire Gauge (SWG) measuring system, or a minimum diameter of .043". The minimum wire thickness for butted chain mail is 16 gauge SWG, or a minimum diameter of .060".

5.2.4 - Rigid metal hand, knee or elbow armor is forbidden (ring or chainmail is permitted).

5.2.5 Metal helmets may not have non-period grills attached to them.

5.2.6 The maximum nominal inner ring diameter for standard 4-in-1 weave chainmail shall be: 1/2" (12.7 mm) for 12 gauge mail, 3/8" (9.5 mm) for 14 gauge mail and riveted, punched, welded, or otherwise "non-butted" 16 or 18 gauge mail, and 5/16" (8 mm) for butted 16 gauge mail.

(rule #'s 5.2.7 - 5.2.10 removed due to re-numbering and rule condensing)

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Odran

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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2012, 06:43:32 pm »
Since it appears that the consensus is that 18 gauge butted chain-mail is illegal, I updated my proposal to the variant version, and added a few small clarifications. I also listed a "variant" which allows 18 gauge butted mail in case I am wrong, in the first post.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2012, 05:04:20 pm »
Odran, are you proposing these changes this Rag?
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Odran

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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2012, 05:08:54 pm »
I'm not sure who is going to represent Lothlorien at RWC this year. We haven't had a realm meeting since March. If you, or someone from your realm, wants to propose the rewrite, please go ahead.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2012, 06:03:08 pm »
I am not prepared to present it this year, but I would like to see it presented.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 05:11:00 pm »
My one issue with this, is... how are most realms able to measure the gauge? What specific tool do they need? How much does that tool roughly cost? I prefer the BIC method.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 06:20:22 pm »
You can measure gauge with calipers that cost about $5 at Harbor Freight (which you already need to have to check leather and plate). You can also eyeball it if you know what you're doing.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2012, 07:31:02 pm »
5.2.5  should really read "non-period bar grills", since that is what is really the issue.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2012, 11:52:23 pm »
I have always disagreed with the rule against "grey goose" grills, since they are period, and they are safe (technically safer for the fighter wearing it and those fighting against them). The reasoning for not allowing them (arrows from the period of their use would go between the slots of the grill) is a bit canceled out by the fact that I have a rock the size of a water melon which would kill you even with your precious full-face shield IRL. Is there another reason I am missing?
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2012, 12:13:21 am »
Because the story from ye olde tome of dagorhir tales is that back in the day Dag people didn't want SCA people bringing their crappy looking propane tank helmets with bar grills onto the Dag field.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2012, 12:29:16 am »
As an old guy from back when that rule was added, I wouldn't be sad to see it go away, provided a new rule took its place: "If a helm has a bar grill or mesh grill over the wearer's face, any hit from a missile weapon to the grill shall be counted as a hit to the face."
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2012, 12:31:11 am »
As an old guy from back when that rule was added, I wouldn't be sad to see it go away, provided a new rule took its place: "If a helm has a bar grill or mesh grill over the wearer's face, any hit from a missile weapon to the grill shall be counted as a hit to the face."
That is exactly what I would like to see too.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2012, 11:50:52 am »
While we're on the topic of armor, can I get a clarification as to why metal knees/elbows are banned, but hard plastic pads are not? I have been hit in the head by both and I can tell you mountain dew is the best soda ever... I mean they both equally suck. I just was wondering while i was reading over this.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2012, 12:50:10 pm »
Because LARP Physics.


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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2012, 05:51:46 pm »
While we're on the topic of armor, can I get a clarification as to why metal knees/elbows are banned, but hard plastic pads are not? I have been hit in the head by both and I can tell you mountain dew is the best soda ever... I mean they both equally suck. I just was wondering while i was reading over this.
My guess is that plastic safety equipment is designed to flex and can flex upon impact (lets just say with a skull), metal is not. Anyone who knows some physics can tell you that any reduction in speed equals a massive decrease in force (F= m x a; force is mass multiplied by the acceleration). It still hurts to get elbowed in the face by a plastic elbow pad, but those guys who invented airbags will tell you that a little deccel goes a long way. Would prefer that the plastic one not be legal either, since leather does just fine for protection and can flex as much as (actually quite a bit more than) plastic.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2012, 06:26:34 pm »
Dudley is wise. Or he's a wise guy. Often both. But today, yes.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2012, 07:51:20 pm »
My guess is that plastic safety equipment is designed to flex and can flex upon impact (lets just say with a skull), metal is not. Anyone who knows some physics can tell you that any reduction in speed equals a massive decrease in force (F= m x a; force is mass multiplied by the acceleration). It still hurts to get elbowed in the face by a plastic elbow pad, but those guys who invented airbags will tell you that a little deccel goes a long way. Would prefer that the plastic one not be legal either, since leather does just fine for protection and can flex as much as (actually quite a bit more than) plastic.

Because LARP Physics.

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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2012, 08:29:05 pm »
Because LARP Physics.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2012, 10:53:29 pm »
Because LARP physics. The reasons the prohibition remains in the rewrite is also LARP physics. Any controversial language can sink the whole rewrite, because 75% approval is needed to pass any change to the MOA.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2012, 03:13:45 am »
My guess is that plastic safety equipment is designed to flex and can flex upon impact (lets just say with a skull), metal is not. Anyone who knows some physics can tell you that any reduction in speed equals a massive decrease in force (F= m x a; force is mass multiplied by the acceleration). It still hurts to get elbowed in the face by a plastic elbow pad, but those guys who invented airbags will tell you that a little deccel goes a long way. Would prefer that the plastic one not be legal either, since leather does just fine for protection and can flex as much as (actually quite a bit more than) plastic.
1. There is plastic safety gear out there that has no more appreciable flex than steel, for our purposes.  It's still legal.
2. Bare elbows and knees don't exactly have a lot of give, unless you mean it in a "give somebody a smackdown" kind of way.  They're primary hand-to-hand weapons for a reason.
3. Since impact goes both ways, anyone who isn't intent on doing harm to themselves is going to have padding between their elbows/knees and their steel armor.

To sum up: LARP physics.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2012, 07:49:45 am »
I fought for one evening with metal elbows on and no elbow pads underneath. Before the next practice I went out and bought soft elbow pads.

But yeah LARP physics are dumb because my splinted vambraces won't stay up without the elbow cops and they are banned.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2012, 02:14:04 pm »
Oh well I won't push the issue, I was just wondering.

Also Rafiq, I have a set of Plastic elbo cops you may be able to replace your metal ones with. Throw some studded leather over them call it a day.
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Re: Armor Rules Re-write 2.1
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2012, 03:08:42 pm »
I've considered doing a studded leather or hardened leather elbow but mostly I just end up not wearing the vambraces. They don't look as good without the cuisses also, and to wear the cuisses I have to point them to a gambeson and I have to wear hosen instead of salwar and I would much rather fight in tunics.
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