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[faron]

For some medium-length weapons, even a 1" diameter PVC pipe has too much flex.  Is it allowed to put something inside the pipe so it does not flex so much?  Would a metal pipe inside the PVC be against the rules?  It would be completely surrounded by PVC pipe. 

[Gorbag]

You can have a solid core so there's no problem putting something inside PVC. Metal cores are specifically disallowed in the rules though so that's a no go.

[Dudley S. Grimes]

No.

No Metal.

Switch to Fiberglass.

Here is why:


If your only option is the PVC stop making such long weapons until you can get a hold of fiberglass.

If cost of fiberglass is a deterrent, think about how much adhesive and tape and foam goes into every PVC weapon you make.  Every time you break a PVC sword you waste all of those consumable goods. Longer lasting core, more use out of materials, saves more money.

If you can't find fiberglass near you. Buy it off the internet. Get a couple of buddies together and buy in bulk to save on shipping. Someone will come behind me and post all the good links for good fiberglass and kitespar.

If you tell me you are not breaking PVC weapons, then you are not swinging hard enough.

If you tell me you prefer PVC. You have no idea what you are missing out on. In terms of performance and not looking like garbage.

[Rúnsær]

NO metal, NO NO NO.  Plus long metal rods flex too and can bend and stay bent.  And it would add a lot of weight.

Fiberglass would be legal and it would fit perfectly, but I do not know if the two cores flexing together would make one of them break easier.  I have no idea how or if that would work so I am not advising you to do it.  I do think it would be a twist on the dual core or maybe a progressive core to fit in with the progressive foam build.

You may not be understanding something.  The PVC is supposed to flex.  If you are looking at a 10 or 20 foot piece  and checking flex you will see a very large flex. 

You said building medium length weapons?  like under 4 foot after you put on the foam?  Remember that adding on the foam over the ends increases length, so for a  36 inch sword you probally only need a 30 inch piece of PVC.  A lot of people have built them with 1/2 inch schedule 40 conduit.  The pros reccomend fiberglass rods but PVC is common.  Schedule 80 is a little harder to find but is prefered over the schedule 40 and it flexes.  The rules just say they can't flex too much, I think it is 45 degrees during a hit.  1" is too big for medium length weapons,  my opinion not the rules.

Here is a link for fiberglass rods that Dudley mentioned
http://www.kencove.com/fence/Fiberglass+Posts_product.php

[Dudley S. Grimes]

Here is a link for fiberglass rods that Dudley mentioned
http://www.kencove.com/fence/Fiberglass+Posts_product.php

NO NO NO. Those are for gardening. Let people who know what they're doing post links.

so for a  36 inch sword you probally only need a 30 inch piece of PVC.  

You shouldn't have 6 inches of foam hanging off a blue sword.

OP
Don't put fibeglass inside your PVC. Just use Fiberglass.

[Rúnsær]

http://www.mgs4u.com/fiberglass-tube-rod.htm

http://www.music123.com/marching-band/styleplus-black-fiberglass-flag-pole

Do either of these meet your approval Dudley?

If I don't post and get corrected occasionally and learn why I don't get to become one of the wise old ones and if everyone did that there would be only noobs when the ones who know what they are doing go away. 

3 inches of stabby foam on a 3 in wide blade, no taller than wide.  inch and a half of blue foam 3 layers and on the pommel another inch and a half that adds up to 6  I sort of figured that would be right. how would you call it?

[Ilyas ibn Yahya]

http://www.mgs4u.com/fiberglass-tube-rod.htm

http://www.music123.com/marching-band/styleplus-black-fiberglass-flag-pole

Do either of these meet your approval Dudley?

If I don't post and get corrected occasionally and learn why I don't get to become one of the wise old ones and if everyone did that there would be only noobs when the ones who know what they are doing go away. 

3 inches of stabby foam on a 3 in wide blade, no taller than wide.  inch and a half of blue foam 3 layers and on the pommel another inch and a half that adds up to 6  I sort of figured that would be right. how would you call it?

To prevent fold over the rule of thumb is a stabbing tip should be no more then half as deep as it is wide.

Since easily achieved min width for a blade is 1.25 inches that leaves five eighths of an inch for tip depth.

[Odran]

By "medium length", OP meant a about 6' long, due to 1" pvc failing for flex. AKA a medium length red. If you want to build a good weapon of that length, you will need to use some sort of fiberglass, probably a bandshoppe pole, like Dudley said. PVC will work good enough for a 30"-36" blue.

[Arrakis]

3 inches of stabby foam on a 3 in wide blade, no taller than wide.  inch and a half of blue foam 3 layers and on the pommel another inch and a half that adds up to 6  I sort of figured that would be right. how would you call it?

Dude, no.  No taller than wide in EITHER of the orthogonal directions, aka, no taller than it is thick, is the rule Whisper is always yammering about.

Pommel = 7/8" of bluefoam or 1/4" of 4# foam + 7/16" of bluefoam = 11/16" to 7/8" of foam

Stabbing tip = 21/16" bluefoam + 3/4" marine foam = ~2" of foam.

Biscuit on tip = something like 3/8" of foam, after compression.

Total additions = 3.25", not 6".

[Dudley S. Grimes]

I wish I could math.

[Arrakis]

I wish I could math.

Anyone can learn to math, Dudley!

[Dudley S. Grimes]

I just want to learn.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

By "medium length", OP meant a about 6' long, due to 1" pvc failing for flex. AKA a medium length red. If you want to build a good weapon of that length, you will need to use some sort of fiberglass, probably a bandshoppe pole, like Dudley said. PVC will work good enough for a 30"-36" blue.

Stop talking crazy Arrakis. 

I know that it's anathema to many, but the cash-strapped can make decent longer weapons using pvc.  The key is to shift to a larger bore pvc as you go up in size.  Fiberglass is a better core material, but pvc is a lot cheaper and easier to get almost anywhere.

My ten foot spears are 1.25 inch pvc, and my eight foot glaive is 1.5 inch pvc (both are sch 40 pvc).

[Magnus]

Kyrax, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. An 8' fiberglass flagpole costs $15.95 including shipping; the extra $10 you spend on fiberglass versus PVC represents such a significant improvement in performance I cannot in good conscience advise someone to use PVC.

Don't use PVC unless you have to build a lot of weapons RIGHT NOW for CHEAP. It is the worst option (aside from, I guess, wooden broom handles) and there is no good reason why you should be using it.

[Whisper Moonson]

I've been cited by Arrakis! Woohoo!

And I have nothing to add. Everyone's got it pretty much covered, except for maybe an URL or two for good fiberglass suppliers (MaxGain, Kitespar, TAP Plastics, McMaster-Carr, etc.)

[Rúnsær]

Here is a link for fiberglass rods that Dudley mentioned
http://www.kencove.com/fence/Fiberglass+Posts_product.php

NO NO NO. Those are for gardening. Let people who know what they're doing post links.

What is wrong with using those "gardening" fiberglass posts?  They are really for electric fences, but what is wrong with them?  They are fiberglass. They are 1/2" diameter.  The fit perfect in the routed 4 pound fries that Alric sells  http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php/topic,24988.0/topicseen.html

[Rúnsær]

Everyone's got it pretty much covered, except for maybe an URL or two for good fiberglass suppliers (MaxGain, Kitespar, TAP Plastics, McMaster-Carr, etc.)

MaxGain
http://www.mgs4u.com/fiberglass-tube-rod.htm
goodwinds for kitespar
http://www.goodwinds.com/merch/list.shtml?cat=fiberglass.tubularfiberglass
or maybe http://www.kitebuilder.com/frame.htm
tap plastics
http://www.tapplastics.com/
McMaster-Carr
http://www.mcmaster.com

[Alric]

Here is a link for fiberglass rods that Dudley mentioned
http://www.kencove.com/fence/Fiberglass+Posts_product.php

NO NO NO. Those are for gardening. Let people who know what they're doing post links.

What is wrong with using those "gardening" fiberglass posts?  They are really for electric fences, but what is wrong with them?  They are fiberglass. They are 1/2" diameter.  The fit perfect in the routed 4 pound fries that Alric sells  http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php/topic,24988.0/topicseen.html

I'm not sure what Dudley's objection to these is - they're pultruded fiberglass posts, exactly what you want to use and no different from the pultruded fiberglass sold by more expensive suppliers. Don't buy the ones with holes in them, of course.

[Dudley S. Grimes]

I only looked at the first couple entries.

Some stuff with holes in it.

[Rúnsær]

Thanks, both of you.  I seriously thought I had got the wrong ones,  I spent a while looking and trying to figure it out.

I did not buy the ones with the holes, I bought the ones second entry down.  4 foot length, anything over 4 requires extra shipping costs.

[Furic Forgeborn]

Just a quick question to add here. Is it legal to fill the pvc with something, such as the "great stuff" spray foam, and allowing it to cure before capping the pvc? A few of our guys have been asking about it, and on a test weapon core, it doesn't seem to do any harm to the core itself.

[Rúnsær]

Apparently that "great stuff" eventually hardens, breaks under the flexing during use, and rattles around inside.

[Arrakis]

Just a quick question to add here. Is it legal to fill the pvc with something, such as the "great stuff" spray foam, and allowing it to cure before capping the pvc? A few of our guys have been asking about it, and on a test weapon core, it doesn't seem to do any harm to the core itself.

It's not illegal, it just doesn't really help with anything.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

Kyrax, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. An 8' fiberglass flagpole costs $15.95 including shipping; the extra $10 you spend on fiberglass versus PVC represents such a significant improvement in performance I cannot in good conscience advise someone to use PVC.

Don't use PVC unless you have to build a lot of weapons RIGHT NOW for CHEAP. It is the worst option (aside from, I guess, wooden broom handles) and there is no good reason why you should be using it.

Not really, you're agreeing with me.  Fiberglass is better, though a bit more expensive. Sure if you can get a pole at that price including shipping, it's a bargain.  But if that requires a group order and you're one person, or you don't have a credit card (etc.), and are really, really broke, pvc can work.  Just not a 1 inch pipe for a weapon of that length, etc. 

[Alric]

Sure if you can get a pole at that price including shipping, it's a bargain.

www.music123.com sells 8' flag poles at that price, with free shipping and no minimum order. It is a bargain!

But I'm also not in total agreement with all the pvc hate myself. It's a great blue sword core for new fighters who are still learning. I'm not sure if it's worth it for red weapons, though, when alternatives only cost a few dollars more.

* * *

Back to the original question, though - you can try putting things inside the pvc to reduce the flex, but this often won't work very well. If you add wood inside the pvc, it might reduce the flex at first, but the wood will soon start to crack and - once it breaks - the sword will flex even more than it did before because of the added weight inside it. The only thing I can think of that would reduce the flex successfully would be fiberglass; but if you have fiberglass available, you should use that instead of pvc, not in addition to it.

The best practice is to use pvc thick enough not to flex too much from the start (rather than trying to make a floppy core stiffer), or to invest in a fiberglass core that doesn't flex to much.

[Azgarehta]

Yeah music123 is where I get all my bandshoppe poles. The other place is bandshoppe.com, but I only ordered from there recently because I needed an 8 foot white bandshoppe and music123 only carries black in 8 foot lengths.

[Sven Kolfinsson]

Yeah music123 is where I get all my bandshoppe poles. The other place is bandshoppe.com, but I only ordered from there recently because I needed an 8 foot white bandshoppe and music123 only carries black in 8 foot lengths.

What's the difference other than color?

[Rúnsær]

Faron, you asked this question, what length did you mean by medium-length?  are you talking about blue swords, red swords, or pole arms like spears?  Did you mean 30 inches or 5 feet or even 8 feet?

[Alric]

Yeah music123 is where I get all my bandshoppe poles. The other place is bandshoppe.com, but I only ordered from there recently because I needed an 8 foot white bandshoppe and music123 only carries black in 8 foot lengths.

What's the difference other than color?

Bandshoppe includes slightly nicer end caps, they're otherwise the same thing. Bandshoppe is a little cheaper per pole, so they *might* be marginally cheaper on a really large order (to offset the shipping costs). We're talking more than a dozen poles, though.

[Azgarehta]

Yeah, music123 is the way to go, except for white poles. (I had to get an 8 foot white one for a specific project I'm working on that involves Nimloth, the white tree of Numenor)

[faron]

I was talking about a 5 or 6 foot weapon.  We had one that was not too flexible, but after riding in a warm car to an event, it was more flexible and after it cooled off, it remained too flexible. 

[Alric]

That sucks. Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done, except to learn from the experience that hot cars kill swords .