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[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

Ilyas: do you have any sources on the history of the mask? cursory googling and other research is giving me nothing except "Homeboy used it for doctorin' in 1619!"

Exactly what I have found.

[Dreadge]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_doctor_costume

sorry linked the wrong page, And I was wrong 14th century They appeared around 1350.

There is your source. Took me like 2 min to find that.

[Dreadge]

Fourteenth century plague doctors who wore a bird-like mask were referred to as "beak doctors".[6][7][8] Straps held the beak in front of the doctor's nose.[9]

9 Being the citation to a credible source.

[Dreadge]

http://weirdthings.com/2009/05/creepy-bird-masks-of-the-14th-century/

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/plague.htm

Just saying even googling plague doctor comes up with references to the masks being used durring the 1350s

[Ravus]

Thanks for pointing me at that source, I read that wiki page but somehow skimmed over that line. However, the Ellis text doesn't seem to indicate anything akin to the bird-doctor masks (aesthetically) instead saying only "The physicians own affair was strapped round his nose - it was a pointed, conical affair, so they called him a Beak Doctor- and this provided a reasonably efficient respirator".

Not to say this completely discredit's the notion, but I don't see it as a clear allusion to what we're talking about here, specifically the so called "medico della peste" mask.

(those last two sources are less rigorous than Wikipedia... Weirdthings is a blog that *cites* the wiki article, and eyewitness history doesn't have any real nods at scholarly stuff. I'm utterly unconcerned with what someone's thrown on the internet as a sort of article, and more concerned, at this stage, with something a li'l more "legit". The ellis source is interesting, but even there it's in casual reference to some practices used against the plague, and not really the aesthetic we're talking about here. I'm interested in the history of the particular mask in general)



tl;dr: the only allusions that are clearly referring to PRECISELY what we're talking about, all seem to indicate the 17th century version. The ellis text sounds different from the bespectacled,virtually anthropomorphic bird-mask.

[Ravus]

Bear in mind, 14th or 17th century, im not against it on the field so long as it reflects the period of the game and not steampunk nonsense. Im just kind of interested in seeing more in depth, 'legit' research on these because i think theyre cool, and would like to know their real history; not what some kid with a blog, or a wikipedia editor has to say.

[Athron]

If billowy pirate shirts are unambiguously garb...

And might this look steampunk-ish because steampunk borrows from historical/fantasy tropes we do situate squarely in Dag?

[Ilyas ibn Yahya]

...
tl;dr: the only allusions that are clearly referring to PRECISELY what we're talking about, all seem to indicate the 17th century version. The ellis text sounds different from the bespectacled,virtually anthropomorphic bird-mask.

Ah see I can't give you that. Actually based on my feverish reading of plague related wiki articles I believe that the bird mask as we know it now is 17th. One of the articles had a image of an engraving depicting an earlier plague doctor and the beak mask looked to just be a beak over the nose and mouth not a full face mask.

Also any idiot could have been a plague doctor the only requirements seem to be thinking you knew what you were doing and taking peoples money for doing it.

[Dreadge]

...
tl;dr: the only allusions that are clearly referring to PRECISELY what we're talking about, all seem to indicate the 17th century version. The ellis text sounds different from the bespectacled,virtually anthropomorphic bird-mask.

Ah see I can't give you that. Actually based on my feverish reading of plague related wiki articles I believe that the bird mask as we know it now is 17th. One of the articles had a image of an engraving depicting an earlier plague doctor and the beak mask looked to just be a beak over the nose and mouth not a full face mask.

Also any idiot could have been a plague doctor the only requirements seem to be thinking you knew what you were doing and taking peoples money for doing it.

Fourteenth century plague doctors who wore a bird-like mask were referred to as "beak doctors".[6][7][8] where are you getting your information there is the damn direct quote and citations again.

[Alric]

allow me to introduce some LARP logic: If the mask was adapted for medical use in the 17th century, what are the odds it had been around since even the early 16th century, let alone the 13th? I'm certainly no expert, but does it make sense to anyone else that a (presumably) well-educated doctor in 17th century Italy would have looked at a traditional carnival mask and gone "Hey! i can cram some nice-smelling stuff in that nose! I'm gonna incorporate it into my new uniform!" ?  That would be akin to a modern doctor looking at, say, a piece of traditional Native American clothing and deciding "That deer-skin garment would make an excelent smock for surgery! allow me to adopt it into my normal work atire!" 


Sounds a little silly don't you think?

No, I don't. If you're living in the 17th century and believe that plague is spread by a miasma (an evil cloud of pestilence), and believe like many others that breathing the smell of good things like herbs will keep the poisonous plague air from infecting you, it makes a lot of sense to grab a carnival mask with a conveniently large beak and stuff that beak full of herbs to ward off the plague. That's clever problem solving, building an improvised gas mask from something that already existed instead of starting from scratch.

Though personally, I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to wear the mask because he thought it would make him look badass.

[Ravus]

That particular quote is taken from an article in a journal from '91the that i cant find to verify the context of. The "scholarly" reference yiu mentioned i provided a direct quote from after finding a scan of the book. One line from a wikipedia article, supported by a citation from a single magazine and a vague mention in a book whos section aeems to a e discussing miasma theory as opposed to germ theory, does not an airtight case make, particulalry when the preponderance of evidence, notably all images of this mask ive seen, are 17th century and later.

As i said, i think its cool for dag either way when done well, but while the topic is front of mind im interested in legitimate sourcez on this topic,, not vague mentions in a book on a very much different subject, single lines on *wikipedia* or some kids blog about neat stuff. Cool yo' jets bra.


Fair enough alric, i just get the feeling theres a sincere disconnect between the popularized plague doctor and any plausible 14th century get up. Just conjecture *shrugs*

[Typos courtesy of my garbage phone]

[Ilyas ibn Yahya]

...
tl;dr: the only allusions that are clearly referring to PRECISELY what we're talking about, all seem to indicate the 17th century version. The ellis text sounds different from the bespectacled,virtually anthropomorphic bird-mask.

Ah see I can't give you that. Actually based on my feverish reading of plague related wiki articles I believe that the bird mask as we know it now is 17th. One of the articles had a image of an engraving depicting an earlier plague doctor and the beak mask looked to just be a beak over the nose and mouth not a full face mask.

Also any idiot could have been a plague doctor the only requirements seem to be thinking you knew what you were doing and taking peoples money for doing it.

Fourteenth century plague doctors who wore a bird-like mask were referred to as "beak doctors".[6][7][8] where are you getting your information there is the damn direct quote and citations again.

Ok so first off the engraving I thought was from earlier was actually the 1721 engraving from Marseilles. Still a beak mask, still doesn't look like a bird though.

And now a game I like to call dueling wikis

"Some plague doctors wore a special costume, although graphic sources show that plague doctors wore a variety of garments. The garments were invented by Charles de L'Orme in 1619; they were first used in Paris, but later spread to be used throughout Europe[12] The protective suit consisted of a heavy fabric overcoat that was waxed, a mask of glassed eye openings and a cone shaped like a beak to hold scented substances.[13]"

Also

"In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, some doctors wore a beak-like mask which was filled with aromatic items. The masks were designed to protect them from putrid air, which (according to the miasmatic theory of disease) was seen as the cause of infection.[7]"

Both from the wikipedia on plague doctors.

And now

"The costume is also associated with a commedia dell'arte character called Il Medico della Peste (the Plague Doctor).[27] The character's mask is associated with the early-17th century French doctor Charles de Lorme.[28]"

From the wiki on plague doctor costume.

[Ilyas ibn Yahya]

allow me to introduce some LARP logic: If the mask was adapted for medical use in the 17th century, what are the odds it had been around since even the early 16th century, let alone the 13th? I'm certainly no expert, but does it make sense to anyone else that a (presumably) well-educated doctor in 17th century Italy would have looked at a traditional carnival mask and gone "Hey! i can cram some nice-smelling stuff in that nose! I'm gonna incorporate it into my new uniform!" ?  That would be akin to a modern doctor looking at, say, a piece of traditional Native American clothing and deciding "That deer-skin garment would make an excelent smock for surgery! allow me to adopt it into my normal work atire!" 


Sounds a little silly don't you think?

No, I don't. If you're living in the 17th century and believe that plague is spread by a miasma (an evil cloud of pestilence), and believe like many others that breathing the smell of good things like herbs will keep the poisonous plague air from infecting you, it makes a lot of sense to grab a carnival mask with a conveniently large beak and stuff that beak full of herbs to ward off the plague. That's clever problem solving, building an improvised gas mask from something that already existed instead of starting from scratch.

Though personally, I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to wear the mask because he thought it would make him look badass.

I'm of the opinion that the mask started life as a sort of strap-on nosegay and later evolved into a full face mask and then into commedia and from there into carnivale in general.

[Olos]

All I know, is I want to try hitting a beak on one of those with an arrow.

[Sven Kolfinsson]

I'd approve of it, especially if you focused on healing much, much more than actually fighting. 

[Man-At-Arms Hiral "Mudd" Brakwulf]

I'd approve of it, especially if you focused on healing much, much more than actually fighting. 

is that a ghost busting plague doctor? I like that mask though. other than that gtfo lol. I actually don't heal? i didn't know we could ^.^ I focus on sword and board. however I do hang around the rez spot quite often.

[Stellaria]

Healing rules are in the MOA. Look 'em over, come up with your poem or whatever to recite (I think there are a few threads you can search for that have examples of poems/recitations currently in use, and have at it!
A lot of Christian personas use prayers for theirs.

[Sven Kolfinsson]

I'd approve of it, especially if you focused on healing much, much more than actually fighting. 

is that a ghost busting plague doctor? I like that mask though. other than that gtfo lol. I actually don't heal? i didn't know we could ^.^ I focus on sword and board. however I do hang around the rez spot quite often.

That's the "Medic", a class in the game Team Fortress 2 who basically only heals. The mask is a hat that you can find.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

Are those hulk hands? Red hulk hands? I want hulk hands!!!

[Vidarr]

Haha, a fake white beard...  Anyway, here's another picture of the mask and my royal kingly attire to go with it.  Also its worth noting I didn't make this as a Dagorhir kit, I made it simply because I wanted a bird mask/Halloween costume.  I have worn it to parties at Rag, but never on the field (and I wouldn't want to). 

[Varadin]

yeah... dont do that.

Plague doctor done right... maybe. That thing vidarr is wearing... looks retarded

[Garret Ironshield]

Yeah, Vidarr, I liked it much more the way I was thinking, as a long, white, sand-shroud for noble Syrians.