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[Daz]

after a couple hours .... i'm going to call shennanigans, and have him hit me somewhere else... also may look at making a different box and try again.

[Alric]

I'd be interested in how that compares to a single layer of blue foam over the same core (the old standard for flat padding). 4lb foam flats are stiff, but a layer of blue foam over the flat isn't going to win any safety awards either.

The question isn't whether 4lb foam flats won't leave bruises. The question is whether they're more dangerous than blue foam flats, and also whether the improved safety of the entire weapon makes a stiffer flat worth any tradeoffs (if it is, in fact, less safe on a strike).

No one except Dane is saying that adding more foam to the flats won't make them safer. But that would just give us clubs. We've accepted the minimal risk of putting less foam on the edges of our swords for years and things have been ok.

[mac]

wow from all the bitching and complaining about weapons check I can assume at least 20 people had to be carted off to the hospital by ambulance due to passed weapons causing injuries. Is that assumption correct? I know it isnt I know that I didnt hear about one injury being incurred by a weapon that passed but should have failed. I could have missed something and my info could be wrong but I didnt hear anything along those lines. So with that being said I can say good job blackhawk and volunteers for running a weapon check that didnt get anyone hurt which is the whole point. I am sure there are a few tweeks that need to be put in place as there always will be so I for one am glad that the same guy that did it this year is doing it next year.

With all of the people here with all of these great and fantastic ideas on how to run a proper weapon check it should be a hard election year with that many people wanting the job( I assume you all are putting your names in the hat next year). Good luck to you all in the election I am very excited to hear your new ideas and procedures. If you are not putting you name in the hat to make it better then I only have on simple request shut up until you are willing to do something about your complaints. Anyone can bitch about how something was done,its the ones that stop bitching and do something that are worth the air they breathe.

[Dane]

Jesus tits, did you not read the title of this thread, which Blackhawk started? He wants the criticism because he doesn't rest on his laurels. Read. Read, I implore you.

[Syr Olaf]

A hand test on flats and Haft padding is sufficient test, But if by hand feels too hard but not core. Then a second check with a light tap to the wrist can help determine if too hard.

testing greens in blues. Hold the sword in one hand on the handle. Then use your other arms forearm to slide the blue across to get an accurate stab on the back. Not the spine.

testing green in reds . Use two hands in the back not the spine
 

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

Use a little glue and maybe minimal tape and it shouldn't.

Additional foam glued or otherwise bound with adhesive to the flat will cause the weapon to hit harder because that foam will resist the compression of the striking surface foam. Push a box. It moves easily. Push a box that is being held in place by two other people pushing it in opposite directions perpendicular to the direction you want to push it. Not so easy.

If one were to go with your theory, when the striking surface is properly constructed with a reasonable margin for error any minor changes such a side panel could cause should not affect overall weapon safety.  If the tolerances are that close, the striking surface wasn't really safe enough, was it?

Or to put it another way, if it's safe enough today, will it be safe enough tomorrow?  I understand striving for perfection, but there's a point beyond which you can go too far. Or you engineer yourself into a situation where you are constantly rebuilding the weapon.

do a light-to-medium hit test to make sure it meets that standard.

How does a light-to-medium hit test ensure the safety of a weapon used with full-contact intent?

Thanks for the out-of-context quotation, but in that bit we were talking about weapon hafts.  You know, a part that is not intended to be used with full-contact force.  So just as we check pommels and flats differently from striking surfaces, I'd do the same sort of thing there.  If we did check any or all of those with full force, nothing would pass.  And as you comment below we're talking about the reality of weapons check, not some theoretical ideal.

The rules of Dagorhir require that the haft padding of flails, axes and polearms do have to be padded "as safely" as the striking surface.

You're not arguing with me here. Please give attention to what the rules require and how weapons are treated in weapons check, then see the double standard and the problem with how the rule is (not) enforced.

I don't see a double standard, however I agree that it's not enforced well in the case of flail hafts. 

As for your much vaunted "four pound foam", if it's newer technology, then it'll have a learning curve.

Those quote marks would imply that this is some kind of weird terminology. It's not. "Four pound" refers to the density of the foam. Also, the use of four pound isn't that new, and there are people here with the experience to know how to deal with it.

No, you're misreading my use of quotations.  The problem is not the type of foam, it's the term.  This thread is literally the first time ever that I've seen it in writing.  The foam I've probably seen and even used, if not the exact brand then something very similar. 

On the other hand, if it is something new to me, I'd like to know more since I'm running a chapter out West a long way from most of Dag (and Bel) and this could be something that would be helpful to the West Coast side of this sport/hobby.

Getting p!ssy because some new latest and greatest hit a bump in the road isn't productive.

You know how those improvements get made? They get made by Blackhawk saying, "Tell us what we can do better," and then people with the experience to improve the treatment of certain things saying, "This was wrong. You can do it better like this." And then we debate it, and people resist, and eventually changes get made.

No, not really, you're again out of context.  Read what I said, not what you assumed.  But just to make it clear as possible - I love the technological improvements we've made in Dagorhir (and our sister sports).  Not only are weapons lighter and safer, the new materials and designs allow greater creativity and variety.  But when we make changes, the first question has to be: "Does this improve safety?"

Given the way that flails are often mis-used, the end of the haft should be as well padded as one of those cheesy clubs.  Technically the rule you cited requires that.

Thanks for the commentary. That doesn't, however, address how the weapons are actually built and tested, which is one of my points.

You're welcome.  I'm more interested in how the weapons are tested. Enforce the rule as written and intended and the weapons construction would follow. 

[Tooka the Gangly Goblin]

wow from all the bitching and complaining about weapons check I can assume at least 20 people had to be carted off to the hospital by ambulance due to passed weapons causing injuries. Is that assumption correct? I know it isnt I know that I didnt hear about one injury being incurred by a weapon that passed but should have failed. I could have missed something and my info could be wrong but I didnt hear anything along those lines. So with that being said I can say good job blackhawk and volunteers for running a weapon check that didnt get anyone hurt which is the whole point. I am sure there are a few tweeks that need to be put in place as there always will be so I for one am glad that the same guy that did it this year is doing it next year.

With all of the people here with all of these great and fantastic ideas on how to run a proper weapon check it should be a hard election year with that many people wanting the job( I assume you all are putting your names in the hat next year). Good luck to you all in the election I am very excited to hear your new ideas and procedures. If you are not putting you name in the hat to make it better then I only have on simple request shut up until you are willing to do something about your complaints. Anyone can bitch about how something was done,its the ones that stop bitching and do something that are worth the air they breathe.

June death count: 28

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

For Merlins sake I get enough compliments, it can make regular people physically ill the number of compliments I get, it's criminal.

This is a complaint thread, this is where you voice your complaints, please stop telling people to stop complaining. I am fully aware that i ran a very good, very tight, very safe, weapons check. . I staffed it with serious vets who are well versed in checking weapons and keeping the field safe, and we succeeded. If I started a compliment thread, you could tell people to stop complaining. Since I am tasked with checking weapons next year with a new set of rules, it only makes sense to ask for help and knowledge from people who have had to check weapons under a similar system. Those vets who know me, know that I am not about to drink some form of 4lb Kool Aid and start autopassing weapons based on some miracle claims from exited nerds. And you tech guys are aware of the uphill battle you have in front of you to convince me really hard cores are safe.

I will tell you this, Dane and PTQ have agreed to stand a post at weapons check next year (One at upper, and one at lower check) to check weapons. This will give them an opportunity to demonstrate to the veteran checkers how best to check the newer tech weapons, and to help me streamline the process with the new rules going into effect. It is much easier to do this in person with an example of the tech in your hand.

I am aware that I am not the end all be all of weapons checkers, that is why I plan to staff check with people who are clearly smarter and better than me next year, just like I did this year.

Now can we get any other complaints, cause this checking hafts and flats might have run it's course and been resolved.

PS- still hate all of you.

[Dust & Bones]

I heard a pretty long list of complaints about Armor check if you'd like that here.

[hivemind]

I heard a pretty long list of complaints about Armor check if you'd like that here.

I got a whole basket of them just from the three-plus hours I did it on Monday, before I ragequit.

[Stellaria]

The one I heard most consistently was that some checkers were searching for failing-thickness areas in an otherwise passing-thickness piece, whereas Jari was searching for multiple passing-thickness areas in an otherwise failing-thickness piece. So the issue was inconsistency between checkers itching to fail stuff and checkers not wanting to fail stuff unless they had to.

That and the whole "is it failed armor, garb, or safety equipment, and who decides" rash of buck-passing.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

Some people thought the checkers were looking for fail spots, when in actuality they were looking for passing spots. Simple matter of communication. Might I suggest next year the checkers mumble pass fail as they run the calipers over the armor so the owners know what's up?

[Magnus]

As for your much vaunted "four pound foam", if it's newer technology, then it'll have a learning curve.

Those quote marks would imply that this is some kind of weird terminology. It's not. "Four pound" refers to the density of the foam. Also, the use of four pound isn't that new, and there are people here with the experience to know how to deal with it.

No, you're misreading my use of quotations.  The problem is not the type of foam, it's the term.  This thread is literally the first time ever that I've seen it in writing.  The foam I've probably seen and even used, if not the exact brand then something very similar. 

On the other hand, if it is something new to me, I'd like to know more since I'm running a chapter out West a long way from most of Dag (and Bel) and this could be something that would be helpful to the West Coast side of this sport/hobby.

Kyrax, we talk about 4# foam on this forum all the time, in the Weapons & Armor subforum. It's not a brand name, it is a technical specification--the density of the foam. Most of the closed-cell foam we've been using in Dagorhir for the last couple decades is in the 1.7-2.3lb range, but it has been discovered relatively recently (like, in the last 4 years) that a denser foam box around the core makes for a safer and sturdier weapon than one built with only 2# foam.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Yeah, I mean, tell me in the early 2000's you didn't have people making core layers with that interlocking basement floor mat foam that's hard as hell?  I still see it sometimes...  The 4 lb density MC is WAY nicer than that stuff.  This isn't new stuff, the internet just helps us talk about it better.

Thrush
berserk

[hivemind]

Some people thought the checkers were looking for fail spots, when in actuality they were looking for passing spots. Simple matter of communication. Might I suggest next year the checkers mumble pass fail as they run the calipers over the armor so the owners know what's up?

That's essentially what I was doing, and I don't know of any other checkers that were trying to fail passing armor. Sometimes I had to check a piece six, seven, eight times to find a single passing place.

Look, if we wanted to fail armor, I could have easily failed 90% of the leather I checked. Going by the letter of the MOA, I could have simply put the calipers on one place, and when it read less than 3/16", said "FAIL" and moved on to the next piece or person. And I bet you green American money I can find a thin spot on damned near every piece of leather I touch.

This year, we came into check with the idea that we'd check a couple places, and, if it was clear that the leather used was actually 9 to 11 ounce stuff, we'd fail the piece. About five people into armor check on Monday morning, it became painfully obvious that damned near nobody in Dagorhir is building leather armor from leather that is actually 3/16" thick. I saw readings on the calipers of 5/32" and 11/64" WAAAAAAAY more than I ever saw them reading 3/16" or greater. If we'd kept doing what we started off wanting to do, we'd have failed at least half the armor we checked.

As it ended up working, we'd check and check and check and check until we found one or two places that were thicker than average, and gave us 3/16". For example, there was a guy who showed up wearing a lamellar skirt made from Tandy's pre-punched scales: http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/search/searchresults/44228-25.aspx

Says right there that they're made from 9-10oz leather. I KNOW this, and I knew what they were as soon as I saw them. But, in the interests of getting armor on the field and reducing butthurt, I checked ten scales on that guy's skirt until I found a thick one, and passed it.

And, let me tell you, my morning would have gone a hell of a lot faster if I'd simply failed stuff that measured below spec. So anyone trying to argue that we were looking to fail armor can suck it.

[Drunken Bob (For Congress)]

Yup. Several of our reds were failed because they hit-tested the freaking FLATS. Because they were made with a 4lb minicel core layer. I'm still totally baffled by this one.

Acrtually one of mine failed, and I ambushed Blackhawk, who explained why something like that could happen. That is why I respect Blackhawk as the weapons checker, he takes time to explain the little subtleties of the rules like that.
It had never occured to me until then that the flats are technically courtsey/incidental padding and need to be checked with the same stipulations as the haft of a flail or mace.

[Stellaria]

Didn't occur to me, either, since people have been using harbor freight floor tile foam as a core layer for as long as I've been in the game, and this was the first time I had ever heard of someone checking a flat for safety beyond the hand-check looking for core separation.
I'm glad of the more conscientious checking, though, so no more bitching about it from this bitch

[Varadin]

Ill say this to vouche for Dane.

I havent kicked him out of my weapons check.

I have kicked Leonidus out of my weapons check.

Just saying is all.

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

And, let me tell you, my morning would have gone a hell of a lot faster if I'd simply failed stuff that measured below spec. So anyone trying to argue that we were looking to fail armor can suck it.

Damn Skippy.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

As for your much vaunted "four pound foam", if it's newer technology, then it'll have a learning curve.

Those quote marks would imply that this is some kind of weird terminology. It's not. "Four pound" refers to the density of the foam. Also, the use of four pound isn't that new, and there are people here with the experience to know how to deal with it.

No, you're misreading my use of quotations.  The problem is not the type of foam, it's the term.  This thread is literally the first time ever that I've seen it in writing.  The foam I've probably seen and even used, if not the exact brand then something very similar. 

On the other hand, if it is something new to me, I'd like to know more since I'm running a chapter out West a long way from most of Dag (and Bel) and this could be something that would be helpful to the West Coast side of this sport/hobby.

Kyrax, we talk about 4# foam on this forum all the time, in the Weapons & Armor subforum. It's not a brand name, it is a technical specification--the density of the foam. Most of the closed-cell foam we've been using in Dagorhir for the last couple decades is in the 1.7-2.3lb range, but it has been discovered relatively recently (like, in the last 4 years) that a denser foam box around the core makes for a safer and sturdier weapon than one built with only 2# foam.

Okay, not a brand name, just jargon I'm not familiar with.  So yeah I should surf those forums more.

Sounds like the stuff my glaive blades are made from.  Glaives that were built in the 80's. 

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

I heard a pretty long list of complaints about Armor check if you'd like that here.

Lets let the great testing a red flat debate die down before we bring in the rage of the unarmored.

[Atalan]

Also an edit and I forgot to make this point. Blackhawk your right, it's been advocated forever that if the hit test is done correctly that weapon dimensions is unnecessary.

Correctly=/=HITTEST ALL THE THINGS!!

Hit test the surface that is intended to hit people

I would say you should also hit test the things extremely likely to hit people.

Because people do step inside of a glaive's swing and get cranked by the haft padding. It's not a rare event.

[Grand High Troll]

Ill say this to vouche for Dane.

I havent kicked him out of my weapons check.

I have kicked Leonidus out of my weapons check.

Just saying is all.

You haven't kicked me out of anything.  I was going to the bathroom while we discussed dingleberries.  I came right back and helped more, and watched you pass three clubs that were woefully too small. 

[Drunken Bob (For Congress)]

That said, not all 4lb foams are the same. I've seen people use 4.5lb EVA 'fun foam' (bestdagstuff sold this), which feels like a brick. Barley sells fries made from a 4lb that is only marginally softer. The stuff I've been using (from www.foambyconbuilt.com ) is softer than both these, but still much stiffer than 2lb foam / blue foam. I can understand someone wanting to fail 4.5lb 'fun foam' for being like a rock - I don't use it because I think it's too hard to be safe on the flat. Barley's stuff is on the edge, it's really stiff, but I've never had someone fail it and don't think that the weapons I've built with it are unsafe. I'd be surprised if the foambyconbuilt stuff failed, because it's firm, but doesn't feel anything like core (this is the stuff A&A use though, I think - it's very safe, and I'm surprised that someone had a problem with it). Like all other things, you have to use the right foam, not all 4lb foams are created equal, and some might be too hard to be safe on the flats.

Actually there are 2 ways to measure foam, first by weight, and second by ILD (or indentation load density) The ILD is how much weight it takes per square inch to basically smoosh the foam to nothing, so you can have a 4 lb flaom with a 100 ILD and you can have the same weight foam with a 200 ILD. the weight matters some, but the real thing is finding out the ILD. for isntance the charcoal foam for arrows that most people use is an 80 ILD and the same weight foam that I use for arrowheads is a 100 ILD, and it hits a little harder, but prevents injury becasue it will not smoopsh down as much or wear thin as fast as the 80 ILD foams.

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

[Falgor Irthune]

I thought check ran pretty good.  I had one sword come through that felt like it was plastidip over 4lb, which is just not cool.  I went up the chain of command though, and they thought it was ok.  Whether it is foam or core, if it feels like core then it should fail.  Of course, I have argued with people about their all foam shields too.  "But it's all foam?"  Well, next time pick a foam that isn't as hard as a rock.

[Syr Olaf]

Stiffer foam is not something new. Late 90's weapons were made of some pretty stiff marine foam. I was actually teaching people in the top check..... just because the weapon striking surface feels stiff does not mean it hits hard. I was also showing people the softer striking surfaces CAN BE HARDER hitting.

We need to have an actual weapons check class to show the checkers helping how to check weapons. Like the stiffer foam, stabby tips, and etc. We also need to bring bad and good examples.

My complaint about both checks that (i was also fighting up top) just because a pommel failed you still check the rest of the weapon and tell the person how to fix it so they can bring it back. Alot of people fail the weapon because of the pommel then the owner fixes it, brings it back then blade hit too hard. This realy pisses off the owner and discourages the owner.

[Lenwe Telrunya]

I had a weapon fail that I probably would pass personally, but thats because I know how I would use it personally and it would be safe.  If someone else picked it up and used it differently than me, then it would probably need to be failed.

Thank you weapons check for being strict.  I'd rather have a questionable weapon fail, than pass and obliterate someone.

[Dreadge]

Some people thought the checkers were looking for fail spots, when in actuality they were looking for passing spots. Simple matter of communication. Might I suggest next year the checkers mumble pass fail as they run the calipers over the armor so the owners know what's up?

That's essentially what I was doing, and I don't know of any other checkers that were trying to fail passing armor. Sometimes I had to check a piece six, seven, eight times to find a single passing place.

Look, if we wanted to fail armor, I could have easily failed 90% of the leather I checked. Going by the letter of the MOA, I could have simply put the calipers on one place, and when it read less than 3/16", said "FAIL" and moved on to the next piece or person. And I bet you green American money I can find a thin spot on damned near every piece of leather I touch.

This year, we came into check with the idea that we'd check a couple places, and, if it was clear that the leather used was actually 9 to 11 ounce stuff, we'd fail the piece. About five people into armor check on Monday morning, it became painfully obvious that damned near nobody in Dagorhir is building leather armor from leather that is actually 3/16" thick. I saw readings on the calipers of 5/32" and 11/64" WAAAAAAAY more than I ever saw them reading 3/16" or greater. If we'd kept doing what we started off wanting to do, we'd have failed at least half the armor we checked.

As it ended up working, we'd check and check and check and check until we found one or two places that were thicker than average, and gave us 3/16". For example, there was a guy who showed up wearing a lamellar skirt made from Tandy's pre-punched scales: http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/search/searchresults/44228-25.aspx

Says right there that they're made from 9-10oz leather. I KNOW this, and I knew what they were as soon as I saw them. But, in the interests of getting armor on the field and reducing butthurt, I checked ten scales on that guy's skirt until I found a thick one, and passed it.

And, let me tell you, my morning would have gone a hell of a lot faster if I'd simply failed stuff that measured below spec. So anyone trying to argue that we were looking to fail armor can suck it.

(Lawful Neutral OCD) **** That! Seriously? Follow that goddamned rules. I don't give a **** if people get butt hurt. The dude who checked my armor **** bricks because it was so ****ing thick he looked at it and knew it passed. If you can't afford to build passing armor YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO HAVE ARMOR! Get this **** off the field. The only way we will have people building real armor is to enforce the rules. If you want to change the rules fine, I will not complain. But as it stands **** getting more armor on the field and start getting LEGAL armor on the field.

You know how hard it is to add a layer of thiner leather to make Legal thickness? NOT HARD. I Agonize over every inch of my armor to make sure it passes. I'm offended that people get a pass on their ****ty armor because people don't want to fail it.

I'll run armor check next year, **** on it. It's about time we start following the rules of our own game. This p**** footed bull**** needs to stop. Rag is our Superbowl, come with your game face, and legal gear or get the **** out.

Edit: Please imagine this whole rant as being screamed with a mouth full of blood and Rage Foam.

[Dreadge]

That being said If you check 6 spots and 4 pass Thats cool. If more than half of the armor is ****, it needs to be failed.

[Varadin]

Ill say this to vouche for Dane.

I havent kicked him out of my weapons check.

I have kicked Leonidus out of my weapons check.

Just saying is all.

You haven't kicked me out of anything.  I was going to the bathroom while we discussed dingleberries.  I came right back and helped more, and watched you pass three clubs that were woefully too small.

No actually I told you, "Go away and learn the rules you arent needed". The fact that you kept checking didnt matter. Also on monday the rules passed to remove min specs on weapons and we at check decided that as long as it was safe we didn't care. Thanks for helping next year im sure you can be a back because your idea of what the rules are arent the same as the MOA.

[Atalan]

Ill say this to vouche for Dane.

I havent kicked him out of my weapons check.

I have kicked Leonidus out of my weapons check.

Just saying is all.

You haven't kicked me out of anything.  I was going to the bathroom while we discussed dingleberries.  I came right back and helped more, and watched you pass three clubs that were woefully too small.

No actually I told you, "Go away and learn the rules you arent needed". The fact that you kept checking didnt matter. Also on monday the rules passed to remove min specs on weapons and we at check decided that as long as it was safe we didn't care. Thanks for helping next year im sure you can be a back because your idea of what the rules are arent the same as the MOA.

So you decided to not check by the rules established for the event? And you're making Leo out to be the bad guy/not know the rules?

[Varadin]

Hi atalan, My name is Varadin on Friday and Saturday I ran the lower checks, On tuesday. Myself and viccers(the guy who ran the lower check the rest of the week) were told by blackhawk that minimums didn't matter by the rules, and that if we felt weapons were safe we were good to pass them.

So no I decided to go with what the Head weapons checker and RWC had decided as the rules. Not just making up you need 3 dingles berries. Not something like "you have two much chain showing" but failing it because it was not the number 3. To the point that I had to be brought in because it was so ****ing stupid of an argument.

Not to mention he later bitched to my a member of my kingdom because I called a cheater a cheater.

[Janwin]

Two wrongs don't make a right, Varadin.

RWC rules changes don't go into effect until the following year for a reason (barring emergency safety rulings that take effect immediately).  Particularly because not everyone follows the votes during their week of vacation, and changing the rules that the event is run on on the fly mid-week is unacceptable.

Even if Blackhawk told you to go by the new rule voted in immediately, it doesn't make it correct.

Just putting it out there.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Actually, what the head of the department, be it weapons, security, medic... whatev, says, goes for the week in that department.  That's why people get elected.  Or so I've understood it... you know, having run a department "a time or 2".

Thrush
berserk

[Magnus]

So, Janwin, you're saying he shouldn't have done what the head weapons checker told him to do?

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

So you're saying he shouldn't have done what the head weapons checker told him to do?

Bingo.  See above.

Thrush
berserk

[Varadin]

actually it was discussed in RWC how you dont have to wait till next rag for things to go into effect, thats just been the standard for a while. Remember last rag how all metal hands were banned on monday and tuesday it was in effect? Sorry to burst your bubble Janwin.

[Atalan]

Hi atalan, My name is Varadin on Friday and Saturday I ran the lower checks, On tuesday. Myself and viccers(the guy who ran the lower check the rest of the week) were told by blackhawk that minimums didn't matter by the rules, and that if we felt weapons were safe we were good to pass them.

Ah, so "we at check" didn't decide. Blackhawk, the head of weapons check, decided.


Bit of a difference there, particularly in how much glory you can claim.

[Janwin]

The metal hands argument, I might point out, was put in place as an "immediate safety concern".

And no, Magnus.  I never said he shouldn't do what the head told him to do.  I said that it wasn't correct as rules changes are adopted at the next Ragnarok.  Thus, that Blackhawk's decision on the matter was a break from policy regarding rules changes at the RWC.

If you're under someone, you do what they say.

And Varadin, there were a lot of things at that RWC that broke with how things have been long established to work.  For example, voting on rules changes on Monday, when it's been long established that votes occur on Thursday in order to give representatives time to bring the changes/addendums/etc back to their chapters for feedback.  Whether or not you CAN vote on Monday without feedback from those you represent, or CAN adopt things immediately without telling anyone, is a rather separate consideration on whether or not you SHOULD.

It seems people were interested in returning to the more traditional method of RWC based on the outcome of the chair vote, too.

Zagar opened peoples' eyes to the fact things can be done differently from how it has been years past.  However, how it has been done years past has become a bit of the standard, and it takes time for people to adopt a new system.  So sure, according to the system, maybe things can be adopted immediately.  I wasn't there for that discussion, so who knows.  But the question is whether or not things SHOULD be adopted immediately without anyone aware of it.  That's why it's always been done that things are adopted the next year, so people have plenty of time to act on it by the next Ragnarok.

Thus, if Blackhawk is the one who decided to implement immediately, you are not at fault for obeying his decision.  However, I do have concern with Blackhawk's decision for the above reasons (primarily, of tradition and insufficient ability to inform people of immediate changes when most people are going on the rules posted on the forums prior to the event).

[Grand High Troll]

Not to mention he later bitched to my a member of my kingdom because I called a cheater a cheater.

I would humbly request you ask your member again what was said.  I didn't have a problem with you calling a person dead for a rules violation.  I had a problem with how much of a jerk you were while doing it.

[Varadin]

Janwin,

The point was though, the clubs i checked, were safe. and by the now rules passed.

Leo

How is calling someone dead, saying why they are dead, and then reseting a fight a dick move? You must hate to watch hockey when the refs make a call?

[Grand High Troll]

Janwin,

The point was though, the clubs i checked, were safe. and by the now rules passed.

Leo

How is calling someone dead, saying why they are dead, and then reseting a fight a dick move? You must hate to watch hockey when the refs make a call?

It was all in the tone.  It came across as a douche who craves being in charge calling another human being a cheater.  Even two posts ago you called her a cheater, so you know it was in your heart.  I don't know that woman, and I was not cheering for her because she was fighting my friend.  But I can wager she was not cheating.  Cheating requires some measure of intent and she struck me as a person who made a mistake. 

Calling her dead was fine.  I would have stood them back up and said continue because the MOA does not prescribe a penalty of death to violators.  But your method was perfectly fine.  All I did was tell Yinz that I didn't like how you talked to her.  And I still don't.  Had I thought it was something worth discussing, I would have told you myself, but it wasn't worth discussing.  Why your little buddy made such a big deal out of it, I don't know and frankly don't care, which is precisely why I didn't bight on the previous bait on this very subject. 

[Stellaria]

It's kind of comforting to know that I'm not the only person that came home from Rag with an itch to piss and moan and be a crabby bitch to everyone around me. High five, guys.

[Atalan]

It's kind of comforting to know that I'm not the only person that came home from Rag with an itch to piss and moan and be a crabby bitch to everyone around me. High five, guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT7uR4wNMJs&feature=related

[Varadin]

Cheating is cheating Leo, with intent or not **** still goes wrong at times. The fact is I called her on it quickly because thats what i was told to do by the head herald at the event. He even wanted public embarrasment as part of it. Now while you may think this isnt very nice. It makes people think twice about doing it again. Youll make sure you are in the right at all times.

As for wanting to? **** that as a herald If i never have to make a single call thats the best heralding. Same with weapons checking. If everything passes my life is happy. The problem is Heralds and weapon checkers are not there to be your friends. We are there to enforce the rules and to keep you honest. If you can't deal with being told you are wrong this isn't the game for you. The rules keep you safe, and they keep you playing cleanly.

[Dane]

So back to weapons check. I think we're ready to really dive into armor, now.

[hivemind]

I already said my piece on armor.

[Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien]

ok, here is my take on weapons check.  I am grateful that all my passing weapons passed, and that all my failing weapons failed.  I trust the weapons checkers to do their jobs.  we only had two blue swords fail for break down late in the week and they def. failed.  Kudos checkers!

Archery/Missle Weapons - Silk and her crew did a great job powering thru the arrows and such.  I had 20 arrows fail during check.  15 for "DrawStops"  my 3" modular heads on a 32" arrow get an inch of tape to keep them on.  I felt this was sufficient, but Silk asked for a more "built up" draw stop.  No complaint, we just added more tape to comply.  Another day, we get the same arrows back with another complaint that the drawstops are in the wrong place.  we are asked to place them 2" further down the shaft.  that puts them at 26".  Do i complain?  No, I comply.  Archer Marshall told me to change it, I did, no questions.  Friday, we pass all our arrows thru check again, this time i get 10 back (5 from before, 5 new ones) fail for hit.  All of my arrow heads are identical and made by me.  I understand that arrow heads will break down, but i had a strange feeling about this particular case.  I take them back and ask they be checked on a "fresh" back.  Sure enough, they pass.  I don't fault the checker for the failure, better to be safe then sorry.  I was busy with other volunteer work, so I couldn't help with Missles, so I am just grateful to the checkers.

My complaint is not with those who check, but those that don't volunteer to do so themselves. 

[Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien]

armor time?  fire away!  this should be fun!