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[Tannhäuser.]

6/18/12 – 6PM
RWC first session, Ragnarok XXVII

Chapters in attendance:  (40) Albion, Alterra, Antiva, Angaron, Antioch, Anvard, Aratari, Kingdom of Akron, Byzantium, Canaur, DaJhurGah, Dominion, Dragonspire, Efoloma Isemoo, Einherjar, Eryndor, Esgaroth, Far Harad, Greyglade, High Spires, K’lar, KOFL, Knor, Lostwithel, Lyonesse, Maethodoron, Mittelmarch, Mordor, Mallenorod, NOD, Nordanmork, Novus Antiqus, Ravenwood, Realm of Chaos, Nivol Astol, Tartarus Invictus, Taurendor, Treefall, Westhammer, Winterfell

Called to order at 6:35 PM after checking in all chapter reps.

First order of business: distribution of rules proposals to be presented.

Zagar introduces himself and Tannhauser as chair and secretary.

Chapter introductions of each rep, followed by introduction of bylaws.  Robert’s Rules or Order reviewed for all delegates.

Minutes from last year, then event coordinator news, then new business presented as agenda

Minutes were posted on forums, approved without objection.

Tannhauser event coordinator report – Thanks for a peaceful landgrab.   New rule instituted by the Cooper’s– no amplified music in the campground.  If you need a survival guide, it is located on the website and at troll for $1.  Notice boards are for everyone’s use.  Please take advantage of them.  Corporation White Papers approved last year have not been completed yet.  Please see Tannhauser if you need more information on that.

New Business

Secretary – Ragnarok Univ Proposal.  Administration change

Night life Coordinator is in charge of night life programs, but also Rag University, the classes taught by volunteers at Rag.  The proposal puts forth a new position of ‘Dean of Ragnarok University’.  Kingdom of Akron seconds.  Einherjar opposes on the grounds that it should just be appointed instead of elected.  Canaur argues for the proposal , saying that knowing exactly who is doing Rag U a year in advance is worth the extra election.  Dragonspire speaks for the motion, indicating that the different skill set is worth considering by the full council instead of the night life coordinator.

Akron and KOFL move to allow night life coordinator to speak.  Twinkle indicates that the amount of work required for Rag U would warrant a new elected position which would get free entry, due to the volume of work.  Both positions deserve a 2nd in command. 

Mallenorod calls the question, Taurendor seconds.  Approved unanimously.

Secretary grappling rules change proposal – this proposal will allow people in armor to grapple with other people in armor. 

The key points
   Bows and arrows and articulated armor are exempt from the rule
   Persons wearing torso armor would be able to grapple others wearing torso armor.
   A fighter not wearing torso armor can initiate grapple with any opponoant
Mordor seconds

Canar – articulated armor must be better defined

Novol Astol – wants differences in armors clarified as an amendment. 

Proposes addendum to 4.9.3 – A person wearing torso armor may only initiate a grapple with other persons wearing the same or greater type of armor.  Novus Antiqus seconds.

Kingdom of Akron  - If we say type of armor, we need to define what the types are.  Differences talked about are leather, metal, chain, plate, etc. 

Akron proposes amendment to 4.9.3 – A person wearing torso armor may only initiate a grapple with other persons wearing the same type of armor or harder.  The hardest type of armor is metal plate mail, the second hardest type of armor is metal mail, the third hardest type of armor is leather.  Novol Astol seconds.

Mittelmarch wants to strike the amendment.  Antioch doesn’t want to discourage people from wearing metal armor.  Canaur indicates that plate mail is not real armor and doesn’t have a place in our rules.  He believes that we would need to define plate and chain mail armor more closely to determine differences between things like lamellar and segmenta lorica, etc.  KOFL  does not approve of taking something simple and making it more complex.  Taurendor against the addendum because of the grey area of composite armor. 

Einherjar moves (and Akron seconds) to table the proposal discussion to Thursday.  31 in favor, 6 against. 

Grappling proposal and amendments will be proposed to Thursday.  <Note:  On Thursday, it was noticed by
the assembly that the secretary could not in fact make this proposal.  It was not brought up again in new business Thursday, so proposal is dead>

Canaur puts forth proposal A, NOD seconds.  This modifies 4.1.5, 4.1.6, and 4.1.11.2-4.1.11.2.5.  See attached.

Canaur calls attention particularly to 4.1.8.2.1 – minimum dimensions of 1.25” by 3” along its entire striking surface, along with 4.1.8.2.2 – weight greater than 12 ounces.  Canaur indicates that weapon dimension rules add nothing to the game, and removing them would make the game better.  To summarize, having all weapons conform to minimum standard of weight, we can remove the minimum standard for dimensions.  Followed by formal reading of entire proposal (see attachment).

Taurendor speaks for the proposal, on the technology side of things.  Tech improves, as a result we can make faster safer and lighter weapons.  Modern tech could make weapons that look closer to real weapons.  Lyonesse speaks for proposal, saying that we compete with LARPs, and sleeker ‘prettier’ weapons will help bring in more cross-gamers, growing Dagorhir.  Einherjar speaks against proposal from a weapons checker perspective, anticipating a large learning curve and difficulties in promulgating good weapons creation and checking between areas.  KOFL speaks against proposal because of the added importance this would place on weapons check.  Point of clarification is made regarding 2.5”diameter rule. 

Novus Antiqus moves  (Taurendor seconds) to table discussion until after Einherjar proposal has been made.  No opposition.

Canaur proposal B, 5.1.1 addendums.  NOD seconds.
Canaur proposes 3 additions to rules, reads formal proposal in its entirety (see attached).

KOFL speaks against proposal because of over-complication and lack of effectiveness at preventing cheating (non-armor being seen as armor).  They believe that added wording does not benefit us in safety, playability, or realism.  Anvard speaks against proposal believing it is too much, and could be summarized by one sentence defining what armor is in Dagorhir.  Taurendor speaks for proposal comparing what we are voting on here with the wordy garb rules passed last year.  Doesn’t believe there is any problem with these points.  Akron speaks against proposal in contained manor – does not approve of 5.1.1.3 proposal, as rigid safety equipment is ignored by this rule.  Proposes amendment 5.1.1.3 - Except for safety purposes, … (as seen in proposal).
Seconded by Nivol Astol.  Maethodoron does not believe that safety gear should resemble armor in any way, and since we already speak for safety gear, does not believe this to be necessary.  Winterfell speaks against amendment, against anything that looks like armor but is not armor.  Taurendor believes that injuries which require safety gear, should construct real armor that protects that area.  Amendment called by High Spires & Taurendor.  3 for amendment, 34 against.  Amendment fails.

Return to main proposal.  KOFL proposes amendment, removing 5.1.1.3, leaving all other parts as is.  Antiva seconds.  Taurendor speaks against amendment, echoing Winterfell’s sentiment above.  Believes we need the rule to NOT bring something on the field that looks like armor but isn’t.  Antiva speaks for the amendment because it does not specify what looks like armor.  Canaur speaks against amendment using example of leather jerkin.  If a leather jerkin looks like armor, then our armor standards are too low.  Canaur believes that armor is self-evident, and is tied to 5.1.1.2.  Da Jhur Gah speaks for amendment, believes that striking this does not change playability at all except for helmets, because only archers call shots.  Akron speaks against amendment, because this is designed to specifically address issues of cheating and hence 5.1.1.3 should be included.  Echoes sentiment of Canaur above.  Novus Antiqus thinks discussion is based on premise of people wearing garb which looks like armor, and wants to know if people wearing garb that looks like armor has been a problem in some people’s chapters.  6 placards raised.  NOD speaks against amendments, as playability issue.  Taurendor speaks against amendment, saying cheaters will continue cheating without amendments that specifically oppose them.  No opposition to closing debate. 

Aratari moves to postpone discussion on amendment and motion until Thursday, Akron seconds.  22 for, 17 against.  Postponed to Thursday.

Einherjar proposal

4.1.3.1 addition to 4.1.3.  Moved and seconded.

Full text of proposal – 4.1.3.1 (addition) – In order to ensure Rule 4.1.3, all weapons are tested at full force, by event appointed Weapons Checkers.

Dragonspire believes full force is too subjective, and doesn’t agree with wording.  Aratari speaks for proposal, and believes that this describes what already occurs in weapons check.  KOFL speaks in favor, as it speaks to what a legal Dagorhir weapon should be capable of.  Akron speaks against, as this would create an error in rules in the case of failing spec weapons where full force swings would not be warranted. 

Akron proposes amendment 4.1.3.1 -  In order to ensure Rule 4.1.3, before being allowed onto the field, all weapons are tested at full force, by event appointed Weapons Checkers.

Aratari is against amendment, not believing that it is necessary to reduce injuries.  Akron’s response insists that new chapters will read rules and swing ALL weapons passed at full force before it would be failed. 

Maethodoron is against amendment wording.  Additional echoing of above points occurs.

Taurendor calls question, NOD seconds.  29 for amendment, 4 opposed.  Amendment carries.

Maethodoron proposes additional amendment, 4.1.3.1 -  In order to ensure Rule 4.1.3, before being allowed onto the field, all weapons are tested at full force, by event appointed Weapons Checkers, unless previously failed by weapons checking staff for safety.  Aratari seconds.

Mallenorod speaks against amendment, believing that once a weapon fails, it fails, and everything further is unnecessary.  Winterfell is for amendment.  Taurendor calls the question, Antiva seconds.  33 for, 5 opposed.  Amendment passes.

Main motion voting – Anvard speaks for motion, believing it to be essential in ensuring good weapons testing.  Winterfell ends debate, Taurendor seconds.  Motion voted upon – 35 for, 3 opposed.  Motion passes.

Return to Canaur proposal A – Taurendor believes that in light of Einherjar passing, this motion has no further drawbacks. 

Aratari moves to postpone motion until Thursday, Einherjar seconds.  16 in favor of postponing, 20 against. 

KOFL calls question, Taurendor seconds.  33 for, 5 opposed.  Canaur Proposal A passes.

Winterfell proposal A made and seconded.

New 5.3.2 proposed which clarifies the definition of composite armor.  New 5.1.2.1 indicates gaps in armor of ¾” ignored.  New 5.1.3.1, similar to Canaur B on items of garb that appear to be armor. 
Canaur asks for a point of information on 5.3.2 – does this imply that we must use pennies to check armor?  If so, is it only for American pennies?  Winterfell would be pleased if amendment is made to indicate American pennies. 

Aratari moves to postpone discussion until Thursday, seconded.  28 for,5 against.  Postponed to Thursday.

Winterfell Proposal B – indicates that members should NOT vote yes on both Proposal A and proposal B.  New 5.3, 5.3.1, 5.3.2, 5.3.3 proposed.  Maethodoron seconds.  Winterfell B is withdrawn for now, as Winterfell A is tabled. 

Adjourned at 8:25 PM with 28 for, 2 against. 

Thursday Session – called to order at 6:18PM 6/21/2012

Chapters in Attendance:  (41) Aggelgorod, Alterra, Antiva, Angaron, Anvard, Aratari, Kingdom of Akron, Byzantium, DaJhurGah, Dominion, Dragonspire, East Wind, Efoloma Isemoo, Einherjar, Eryndor, Esgaroth, Far Harad, Greyglade, High Spires, K’lar, Knightly Order of the Fiat Lux, Knor, Lostwithiel, Lyonesse, Maethodoron, Mittelmarch, Mordor, Mallenorod, NOD, Nordanmork, Novus Antiqus, Outlanders, Ravenwood, Dystopia, Realm of Chaos, Tartarus Invictus, Taurendor, Treefall, Westhammer, Wildwood, Winterfell

Aggelgorod calls a point of order and speaks to his displeasure that rules were passed on Monday, when that has not been RWC’s system previously.  RWC Chair explains how the RWC bylaws work, and how Robert’s Rules of Order work.  Aggelgorod makes a motion of no confidence in the RWC chair, motion not recognized. 

Chair asks that Aggelgorod delegate be removed from assembly, no volunteers to remove him.

Mallenorod moves to reconsider the weapon hit test proposal.  Seconded.  (privilege : recount) 24 for, 13 against.

Motion on table:  KOFL calls the question, seconded.  33 for, 2 opposes.  Rule change passes (again).

Mallenorod moves to reconsider the weapons dimensions proposal.  Seconded.  (Re-reading of rules proposal prior to vote) 18 for, 18 against.  Motion fails, rule change stands.

Grappling Rule continuance

Re-reading of rules, followed by Kingdom of Akron questioning the validity of the Secretary presenting the issue.  Upheld that the secretary was not eligible to present the proposal.  Proposal removed.

Maethodoron raises point of order motion to amend bylaws to remove Robert’s Rules of Order.  Discussion ensues on best way to go back to the way RWC used to be run.  Kingdom of Akron moves to permanently amend the bylaws, effective immediately, which simply states ‘Under RWC Chair:  The list of responsibilities will say as such:  Manage the flow of the meeting according to good order and procedure.’, replacing the section with Robert’s Rules of Order.  Seconded. 

KOFL speaks against the proposal, endorsing Robert’s Rules of order.  Kingdom of Akron speaks for the proposal, indicating that good order should be the opinion of the body itself, not the chair.  He acknowledges that Robert’s Rules of Order have their place, but believes that we can do better, as we have in years past.  K’lar speaks against the motion.  Although the meeting has not been run well, they still believe that Robert’s Rules of Order.  They believe that the problem isn’t with the system, it’s with the individual meetings.  Aratari speaks for the motion, indicating that since most representatives aren’t familiar with Robert’s Rules of Order, it isn’t appropriate for this meeting.  Da Jhur Gah speaks against the motion, with 3 items to consider: 1) By whose judgment would the meeting be run? 2) In terms of discussion, why not have them outside of the session?  3)  These bylaws have been on the books for 10 years, this is just a different interpretation of what we have in place, but we don’t need to replace the bylaws, we know they can already work well.  Maethodoron moves to end debate, Einherjar seconds. 

To close debate:  18 for, 15 against.  Motion passes

In favor of amending bylaws:  12 for, 24 against.  Motion fails

Canaur proposal B revisited

Re-reading of rules and amendments as presented Monday. 

Novus Antiqus calls the question on the amendment to strike 5.1.1.3, seconded – 21 for, 16 against.  Amendment approved.

Return to discussion on the main proposal.  Anvard speaks against proposal, as being too complicated.  Believes that it could be summed up with smaller amounts of text which would be less confusing and intimidating.  Taurendor speaks for proposal, countering the point with the garb rules re-write which was passed last year and also wordy.  KOFL moves to end discussion, seconded.  34 for, 1 opposed.

Motion vote:  29 for, 7 against.  Motion passes

Winterfell proposal A revisited

Re-reading of rules changes proposed.

Winterfell speaks for the motion, as they believe the first part of this proposal fixes the rules to reflect the way most people already do things.  Pointed Heart speaks against the proposal.  Aratari speaks in favor of the proposal, but in a different proposal that they will present later.  Mallenorod speaks for the proposal.  They support all three parts, but would like to point out that this rule only deals with metal on leather.  They propose an amendment to 5.3.2 remove the phrase ‘leather less than 3/16” thick’ and change it to ‘non-armor backing’, and also remove 'leather' at the start of the proposal.  Seconded.

No objection to closing debate.  Vote on amendment.  34 for, 1 against.  Amendment passes

Einherjar moves to close debate – 24 for, 12 against.

Vote for the proposal:  30 for, 6 against.  Motion passes.

New Business

Ragnarok will be held at Cooper’s Lake.  2 date options – June 16-23 or June 23-30.
Debate ensues on which dates would suit us better, mostly speaking for the later dates. 
June 16-23 : 9 in favor
June 23-30:  28 in favor.  Ragnarok will be held June 23-30, 2013.

Elections:
Event Coordinator:  Will Scarlit nominated, seconded.  Affirmed by acclaim
Shadow:  Mace nominated, accepted.  Eryndor nominates Asashi, accepted.  Taurendor nominates Tannhauser, accepted.  Mace withdraws.  Voting:  12 Asashi, 19 Tannhauser. 
Day Events:  Toland of Eryndor nominated, accepted.  Da Jhur Gah nominates Ducky Mcfeelgood.  Voting:  11 Toland, 24 Ducky
Night Events:  Dust & Bones of Winterfell nominated, accepted.  Nietzsche nominated, accepted.  Voting:  17 Dust & Bones, 15 Nietzsche
Dean of Ragnarok University:  Shatterhaze nominated, accepted.  Affirmed by acclaim
Weapons Check:  Blackhawk nominated, accepted.  Affirmed by acclaim
Medic:  Rayne nominated, accepted.  Affirmed by acclaim
Security:  Askarus nominated, accepted.  Affirmed by acclaim
Troll:  Jocelyn nominated, accepted.  Twinkle nominated, accepted.  Voting:  20 Jocelyn, 12 Twinkle.
RWC Chair:  Zagar nominated, accepted.  Dominus nominated, accepted.  Voting:  17 Zagar, 18 Dominus
RWC Secretary:  Zagar nominated, declines.  Tannhauser nominated, accepted.  Janwin nominated, accepted.  Tannhauser withdraws.  Janwin affirmed by acclaim.

Meeting adjourned at 8:14 PM.

[Tannhäuser.]

Final summary of passed rules:

4.1.5, 4.1.6, and 4.1.11.2 (as well as 4.1.11.2.1 through 5) are all replaced by the following:

4.1.5 - Two-and-a-half-inch rule: No part of a weapon's striking surface, whether the tip, the edge, the face or any other part, may pass easily more than 0.5" through a 2.5" diameter hole when tested in the direction of the strike.

4.1.6 - Two-inch rule: No non-striking component of a weapon, such as a crossguard, a nonstriking tip, or a pommel, may pass easily more than 0.5" through a 2" diameter hole when tested perpendicular to the striking surface or shaft of the weapon.

4.1.11.2 - All swung weapons must conform to the following:
4.1.11.2.1 - Blue weapons must weigh at least 12 ounces.
4.1.11.2.2 - Red weapons must weigh at least 24 ounces
4.1.11.2.3 - Swung weapons must balance above the unpadded handle section.

Addition to rule 4.1.3 -

4.1.3.1 -  In order to ensure Rule 4.1.3, before being allowed onto the field, all weapons are tested at full force, by event appointed Weapons Checkers, unless previously failed by weapons checking staff for safety.

Additions to rule 5.1.1 -

5.1.1.1 Armor is subject to the same restrictions as garb with regards to resemblance to modern clothing and incorporation of modern symbols. Armor may not be constructed in such a way as to resemble clearly modern hats, caps, jackets, trousers, etc. (this is not an exhaustive list) nor may it incorporate clearly modern symbols and designs. Armor does not waive the garb requirement for the wearer unless all modern clothing is completely covered by the armor.

5.1.1.2 Only items specifically constructed as armor and recognizable as armor shall be counted as armor. Armor shall be counted as such only when worn as intended. No item with an obvious function other than armor, such as straps, quivers, pouches, boots, scabbards, bandoliers, etc. (this is not an exhaustive list) shall be considered to be armor regardless of the material of its construction.

Addition to rule 5.1.2:

5.1.2.1 – Hits to areas that are both armored and unarmored must be taken to the unarmored area.  Gaps in armor coverage of ¾” or less shall be ignored.

Addition to rule 5.1.3:

5.1.3.1 – Items of garb that appear to be armor, at the discretion of either the events’ armor checker or garb checker, or any herald, may not be worn on the field.

Replace existing rule 5.3.2 with:

5.3.2 – Armor that is metal studded or scaled, or has metal brigandine plates or rings, based on non-armor backing, can only be counted as armor if the studs/scales/plates/rings are not more than ¾” apart.  This can be easily tested by moving a penny around the surface of the armor.  If at any time the penny is completely flat on the backing without touching any studs/scales/plates/rings, the armor fails.

[hivemind]

I can send you the Word file of the one of mine that apparently passed (I didn't go Thursday), but I understand it was amended first, so I don't have that.

It's on my home PC, I'll shoot it your way tonight when I'm home. If you don't get it by bedtime, poke me on FB.

[Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien]

Thank you sir for your hard work and dedication.  It is much appreciated.  This was very timely and much speculation may now be put to rest!

I would like to know if we can actually work on getting RWC properly recorded in video format (with audio) and having an actual recorder present (no offense, but i notice some discrepancies and omissions in the minutes) to alleviate the burden upon the secretary during proceedings?

[Twolf]

This was an ugly meeting and I chalk it up to a lot of people not paying attention.

BTW, according to my copy of Hivemind's Proposal and the notes I took upon them, I think we may have missed a reference to leather backing in the last sentence.  Or it could have just been me that missed it, since I was rushing on the note taking.

[Atalan]

This was an ugly meeting and I chalk it up to a lot of people not paying attention.

From what I heard it also had a lot to do with people not knowing Robert's Rules...

[Tannhäuser.]

Timmourne, I can barely keep up and hear everybody with human ears and eyes. I don't know what mechanical process (video or audio) would work better. As far as omissions go, I left out debates that echoed same sentiments, as well as debate during elections (per standard practice).

I noticed one inconsistency I should have established in the minutes - pointed heart and efoloma isemoo are the same.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

I want my threat of tackling the chair off the stage if he mucked with the vote, entered into the minutes! I kid, I kid.

[Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien]

Timmourne, I can barely keep up and hear everybody with human ears and eyes. I don't know what mechanical process (video or audio) would work better. As far as omissions go, I left out debates that echoed same sentiments, as well as debate during elections (per standard practice).

I noticed one inconsistency I should have established in the minutes - pointed heart and efoloma isemoo are the same.

you sir did wonderfully.  better than many super humans!  which is why i suggest a video/audio record and a court reporter.  those are the only things i think that can do it better!

[Magnus]

Oh, that's unfortunate. The scheduled dates mean I will not be able to attend Ragnarok at all if I want to continue working this job.

Guess it's time to prioritize...

But on the plus side, all of my rules proposals passed, including the part of the Canaur B proposal that was eliminated but passed by means of the nearly-identical Winterfell A proposal.

[Twolf]

But on the plus side, all of my rules proposals passed, including the part of the Canaur B proposal that was eliminated but passed by means of the nearly-identical Winterfell A proposal.

Pretty much.  The only difference is that the Winterfell proposal gives a bit more power to the heralds to decide.  But I was a little surprised it was never discussed.

[Zagar]

The only inaccuracy I see is in regard to Aggelgorod.  The chair did not make a motion to remove him.  He simply told him to leave.  The bylaws give the chair unilateral power to do that to any member that is disrupting the meeting (note: that is something I think should be removed, as disciplinary power should reside with the body).  But since there's no way to enforce it, and I didn't have a Sergeant at Arms, I let it go.

[Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien]

my reference is to Thursday in particular as there is not one mention my my points prior to exit from the meeting.  Maethodoron (myself) moved to remove Roberts Rules from the meeting that night, then in general from the Bylaws.  I know for a fact i had quite a few points, but they are not recorded, only my presence.

Call me vain, but i would like to have my voice heard and recorded, especially as my Realm specifically sent me to speak for them.

I also understand that the Chair and Secretary had their hands full at that time keeping the entire meeting in order, which is why i would (and will) propose a dedicated recording device of some sort in operation for these proceedings.

[Kevät]

The only inaccuracy I see is in regard to Aggelgorod.  The chair did not make a motion to remove him.  He simply told him to leave. 

Perhaps it wasn't an actual motion, but I do distinctly remember you asking for help in removing him.  But as you said, it's unenforceable, just trying to make sure everyone knows the full extent of what went on...

Kevat,
Secretary Elect- DBGA

[Tannhäuser.]

my reference is to Thursday in particular as there is not one mention my my points prior to exit from the meeting.  Maethodoron (myself) moved to remove Roberts Rules from the meeting that night, then in general from the Bylaws.  I know for a fact i had quite a few points, but they are not recorded, only my presence.

Call me vain, but i would like to have my voice heard and recorded, especially as my Realm specifically sent me to speak for them.

I also understand that the Chair and Secretary had their hands full at that time keeping the entire meeting in order, which is why i would (and will) propose a dedicated recording device of some sort in operation for these proceedings.

Did I incorrectly list Mittelmarch instead of Maethodoron in the following part?

Mittelmarch raises point of order motion to amend bylaws to remove Robert’s Rules of Order.  Discussion ensues on best way to go back to the way RWC used to be run.  Kingdom of Akron moves to permanently amend the bylaws, effective immediately, which simply states ‘Under RWC Chair:  The list of responsibilities will say as such:  Manage the flow of the meeting according to good order and procedure.’, replacing the section with Robert’s Rules of Order.  Seconded.

KOFL speaks against the proposal, endorsing Robert’s Rules of order.  Kingdom of Akron speaks for the proposal, indicating that good order should be the opinion of the body itself, not the chair.  He acknowledges that Robert’s Rules of Order have their place, but believes that we can do better, as we have in years past.  K’lar speaks against the motion.  Although the meeting has not been run well, they still believe that Robert’s Rules of Order.  They believe that the problem isn’t with the system, it’s with the individual meetings.  Aratari speaks for the motion, indicating that since most representatives aren’t familiar with Robert’s Rules of Order, it isn’t appropriate for this meeting.  Da Jhur Gah speaks against the motion, with 3 items to consider: 1) By whose judgment would the meeting be run? 2) In terms of discussion, why not have them outside of the session?  3)  These bylaws have been on the books for 10 years, this is just a different interpretation of what we have in place, but we don’t need to replace the bylaws, we know they can already work well.  Mittelmarch moves to end debate, Einherjar seconds.

To close debate:  18 for, 15 against.  Motion passes

In favor of amending bylaws:  12 for, 24 against.  Motion fails

[Rune]

Yes.

[Falgor Irthune]

Yes.

Sir Rune!!!  Stoic Knight of Mittelmarch!!!  Man of few words, but he speeks the truth. 

[Tannhäuser.]

Yes.

Ok.  Corrected now.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

The only inaccuracy I see is in regard to Aggelgorod.  [I as t]he chair did not make a motion to remove him.  [I ] simply told him to leave.

If we're going to nitpick, I've fixed that for you. 

Then when Mordraughchk, said delegate for Aggelogorod refused to leave, you called for volunteers to eject him. 

*crickets chirped* and nobody moved. 

When nothing happened, calmer heads prevailed, on the dais and the floor, and we all moved on the the business of the RWC. 

[Alric]

I'm confused whether Canaur B passed or not. I suspect I'm not reading the minutes properly, but this seems to suggest that it did?

Canaur proposal B revisited

Re-reading of rules and amendments as presented Monday. 

Novus Antiqus calls the question on the amendment to strike 5.1.1.3, seconded – 21 for, 16 against.  Amendment approved.

Return to discussion on the main proposal.  Anvard speaks against proposal, as being too complicated.  Believes that it could be summed up with smaller amounts of text which would be less confusing and intimidating.  Taurendor speaks for proposal, countering the point with the garb rules re-write which was passed last year and also wordy.  KOFL moves to end discussion, seconded.  34 for, 1 opposed.

Motion vote:  29 for, 7 against.  Motion passes

[Falgor Irthune]

I am pretty sure that forcing someone to read this is against the Geneva Convention.  Thanks for recording it though T. 

[Tannhäuser.]

Canaur B DID pass, but the part of the proposal that created 5.1.1.3 was removed before it passed.

[Magnus]

And Winterfell's proposal to add/amend 5.1.3 passed instead.

[Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien]

i have posted an "UNOFFICIAL" re-write of the armor rules @ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d9ZDJAnBw4INYNEKOGX1KDJKP5-qRndk5hwtp5DkY6c/edit?pli=1 with notes as to what proposal it came from

[Ragefire]

Dang, I really wanted that grappling rule to pass.

[Dominick Stoneskull]

K'lar had planned on proposing it so it could be discussed and voted on, but the plan was forgotten in the chaos.

[Olos]

K'lar had planned on proposing it so it could be discussed and voted on, but the plan was forgotten in the chaos.

Yeah, we tabled it till new business was completed, and then after the nominations and such everyone wanted to leave.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

I'll be ready for you this year:

[Grand High Troll]

Having read through the minutes.  Where is the part about people calling Zagar a liar, and throwing water in his face.  Seems like the douchebaggery should not be omitted from the minutes.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

Having read through the minutes.  Where is the part about people calling Zagar a liar, and throwing water in his face.  Seems like the douchebaggery should not be omitted from the minutes.

I tried to get people to bring a video camera to this. "boring" they said, "why" they asked "not worth it" they chided.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

Having read through the minutes.  Where is the part about people calling Zagar a liar, and throwing water in his face.  Seems like the douchebaggery should not be omitted from the minutes.

I don't recall water being thrown at anyone (though it could have happened in the peanut gallery). Said douchebaggery was noted here:

The only inaccuracy I see is in regard to Aggelgorod.  [I as t]he chair did not make a motion to remove him.  [I ] simply told him to leave.

If we're going to nitpick, I've fixed that for you. 

Then when Mordraughchk, said delegate for Aggelogorod refused to leave, you called for volunteers to eject him. 

*crickets chirped* and nobody moved. 

When nothing happened, calmer heads prevailed, on the dais and the floor, and we all moved on the the business of the RWC. 

[Magnus]

Having read through the minutes.  Where is the part about people calling Zagar a liar, and throwing water in his face.  Seems like the douchebaggery should not be omitted from the minutes.

Wait, what? Who would do something like that? That's childish.

[Surg Da Gentle]

I'm not sure of who, exactly, it was, but post meeting someone ran up and threw water in Zagar's face.

And during the meeting he was accused of having lied to get his spot as RWC chair.

[Magnus]

Those are both really immature things to do. I'm sorry someone or several someones had such lapses in judgment.

This probably isn't an appropriate place to discuss it, though; I suppose I'll have to find out more elsewhere.

[Devaryn]

It was after the meeting, and it was Tobias of Rome.  Walked right up to Zagar as he was about to leave, and emptied his tankard of water right in his face, then walked off.  Zagar was too shocked to do anything, and just stood there for a minute, dripping with water, which also got all over the books and paperwork he was carrying.  I was standing right there next to Dominus and a few others when it happened.  All due respect to Rome, because Dominus seemed pissed by that as well, and said he would handle it, and I trust that he did.  But I've lost a good amount of respect for Tobias as a result of his actions.

[Athron]

That is really unfortunate.

[Zagar]

It was after the meeting, and it was Tobias of Rome.  Walked right up to Zagar as he was about to leave, and emptied his tankard of water right in his face, then walked off.  Zagar was too shocked to do anything, and just stood there for a minute, dripping with water, which also got all over the books and paperwork he was carrying.  I was standing right there next to Dominus and a few others when it happened.  All due respect to Rome, because Dominus seemed pissed by that as well, and said he would handle it, and I trust that he did.  But I've lost a good amount of respect for Tobias as a result of his actions.

Yep, pretty much sucked.  This is the first time I found out who it was.  But respect to Dominus, who immediately asked if I needed anything and then got me a towel to dry off with.  I also heard from Drunken Bob the following day that Dominus was taking care of it "within the unit" so I assume it was handled.  I was more surprised than anything, and then just glad it was only water.

Thanks,

Zagar

[Dominick Stoneskull]

That is appalling.

[Silk]

...it was water. That's not appalling. It's simply rude.

[Magnus]

It's not an acceptable way for adults to behave.

[Kurai]

...it was water. That's not appalling. It's simply rude.

It's not the water that was appalling. It was the action of throwing the water. I'd think that we could all act as adults and simply share our thoughts without the need to resort to behavior like that.

[Silk]

I didn't say it was acceptable, I just said it wasn't appalling. Adults shouldn't be rude.

Appalling is when people are hurt, things are irrevocably damaged, the treatment of human beings as less than human and the like. Tossing water on someone is grade-school prank stuff. Not acceptable, but certainly not bad enough to be called appalling.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

We have all had a moment or two when we behaved badly, when things did not go our way. There was plenty of that at RWC, tempers were high and adrenalin flowing. There was an understandable amount of angst from the folks that helped put Dagorhir on the map, due to the Chairs realm status as being defunct for over a year prior to his acceptance of the position. Many were willing to give Zagar the benefit of the doubt and many were not.

I spoke to many of the people who were angry that he was not removed from the position at the time who later admitted that even though things did not go their way, order was restored to a usually disorderly meeting, and the people representing realms were counted and double checked as the ones allowed to do so.

In short, like Zagar or not, think him a liar for claiming to be the representative of a defunct chapter and never having been told so by Dagorhir. Hate Roberts rules, or hate the rules that passed. There is no doubt in my mind that this meeting was good for this game in the long run.

PS. If I found myself in Japan at a big Dag battle and attended their RWC meeting, I might say that I represent American Dag, simply due to the fact that I am the only American there, and I might be that narcissistic.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

What I find appalling is that Zagar did not dodge the water as deftly as he dodged the verbal assault as chair.

[Rafiq's Slightly Used Camels]

I think it should be a new RWC tradition, watering the chair so that one can grow for next year.

[Dominick Stoneskull]

I didn't say it was acceptable, I just said it wasn't appalling. Adults shouldn't be rude.

Appalling is when people are hurt, things are irrevocably damaged, the treatment of human beings as less than human and the like. Tossing water on someone is grade-school prank stuff. Not acceptable, but certainly not bad enough to be called appalling.

Fair enough, Silk, I should have chosen my words more carefully. "Reprehensible."

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

Now I'm doubly glad I left promptly after the meeting was done.  I'm sorry to hear that happened, it was unfortunate and unnecessary.  As with the earlier firestorm, I'm glad to hear that calmer heads prevailed. 

[Grand High Troll]

It was assault and therefore a crime. 

[Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien]

It's not an acceptable way for adults to behave.

While i agree it lacked decorum for a member of the audience to behave in such a way, I find it rather humorous that we are calling this such a crime.  I didn't like Zagar as the chair, and I have spoken to him personally that i admire his actions and how he handled himself and the meeting.  But throwing a drink (i am sorry it actually happened Zagar) is a perfectly acceptable period method of challenging someone whom you disagree with.  Another version would have been to slap him with your gauntlet or glove (this is better it didn't happen).  I am not suggesting that we continue this trend, but if i hear anyone of you who are so offended by this action call for more period garb/behavior/etc., I will be forced to call you a hypocrite and will consider watering you myself!

(this is mainly meant in Jest and I most likely won't water anyone!)

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

It was assault and therefore a crime.

The fact that, that sort of thing is a crime is, in itself, criminal. I would have to enter the courthouse through the back door wearing a full disguise for the shame of prosecuting someone for throwing water on me.