6/18/12 – 6PM
RWC first session, Ragnarok XXVII
Chapters in attendance: (40) Albion, Alterra, Antiva, Angaron, Antioch, Anvard, Aratari, Kingdom of Akron, Byzantium, Canaur, DaJhurGah, Dominion, Dragonspire, Efoloma Isemoo, Einherjar, Eryndor, Esgaroth, Far Harad, Greyglade, High Spires, K’lar, KOFL, Knor, Lostwithel, Lyonesse, Maethodoron, Mittelmarch, Mordor, Mallenorod, NOD, Nordanmork, Novus Antiqus, Ravenwood, Realm of Chaos, Nivol Astol, Tartarus Invictus, Taurendor, Treefall, Westhammer, Winterfell
Called to order at 6:35 PM after checking in all chapter reps.
First order of business: distribution of rules proposals to be presented.
Zagar introduces himself and Tannhauser as chair and secretary.
Chapter introductions of each rep, followed by introduction of bylaws. Robert’s Rules or Order reviewed for all delegates.
Minutes from last year, then event coordinator news, then new business presented as agenda
Minutes were posted on forums, approved without objection.
Tannhauser event coordinator report – Thanks for a peaceful landgrab. New rule instituted by the Cooper’s– no amplified music in the campground. If you need a survival guide, it is located on the website and at troll for $1. Notice boards are for everyone’s use. Please take advantage of them. Corporation White Papers approved last year have not been completed yet. Please see Tannhauser if you need more information on that.
Secretary – Ragnarok Univ Proposal. Administration change
Night life Coordinator is in charge of night life programs, but also Rag University, the classes taught by volunteers at Rag. The proposal puts forth a new position of ‘Dean of Ragnarok University’. Kingdom of Akron seconds. Einherjar opposes on the grounds that it should just be appointed instead of elected. Canaur argues for the proposal , saying that knowing exactly who is doing Rag U a year in advance is worth the extra election. Dragonspire speaks for the motion, indicating that the different skill set is worth considering by the full council instead of the night life coordinator.
Akron and KOFL move to allow night life coordinator to speak. Twinkle indicates that the amount of work required for Rag U would warrant a new elected position which would get free entry, due to the volume of work. Both positions deserve a 2nd in command.
Mallenorod calls the question, Taurendor seconds. Approved unanimously.
Secretary grappling rules change proposal – this proposal will allow people in armor to grapple with other people in armor.
The key points
Bows and arrows and articulated armor are exempt from the rule
Persons wearing torso armor would be able to grapple others wearing torso armor.
A fighter not wearing torso armor can initiate grapple with any opponoant
Canar – articulated armor must be better defined
Novol Astol – wants differences in armors clarified as an amendment.
Proposes addendum to 4.9.3 – A person wearing torso armor may only initiate a grapple with other persons wearing the same or greater type of armor. Novus Antiqus seconds.
Kingdom of Akron - If we say type of armor, we need to define what the types are. Differences talked about are leather, metal, chain, plate, etc.
Akron proposes amendment to 4.9.3 – A person wearing torso armor may only initiate a grapple with other persons wearing the same type of armor or harder. The hardest type of armor is metal plate mail, the second hardest type of armor is metal mail, the third hardest type of armor is leather. Novol Astol seconds.
Mittelmarch wants to strike the amendment. Antioch doesn’t want to discourage people from wearing metal armor. Canaur indicates that plate mail is not real armor and doesn’t have a place in our rules. He believes that we would need to define plate and chain mail armor more closely to determine differences between things like lamellar and segmenta lorica, etc. KOFL does not approve of taking something simple and making it more complex. Taurendor against the addendum because of the grey area of composite armor.
Einherjar moves (and Akron seconds) to table the proposal discussion to Thursday. 31 in favor, 6 against.
Grappling proposal and amendments will be proposed to Thursday. <Note: On Thursday, it was noticed by
the assembly that the secretary could not in fact make this proposal. It was not brought up again in new business Thursday, so proposal is dead>
Canaur puts forth proposal A, NOD seconds. This modifies 4.1.5, 4.1.6, and 18.104.22.168-22.214.171.124.5. See attached.
Canaur calls attention particularly to 126.96.36.199.1 – minimum dimensions of 1.25” by 3” along its entire striking surface, along with 188.8.131.52.2 – weight greater than 12 ounces. Canaur indicates that weapon dimension rules add nothing to the game, and removing them would make the game better. To summarize, having all weapons conform to minimum standard of weight, we can remove the minimum standard for dimensions. Followed by formal reading of entire proposal (see attachment).
Taurendor speaks for the proposal, on the technology side of things. Tech improves, as a result we can make faster safer and lighter weapons. Modern tech could make weapons that look closer to real weapons. Lyonesse speaks for proposal, saying that we compete with LARPs, and sleeker ‘prettier’ weapons will help bring in more cross-gamers, growing Dagorhir. Einherjar speaks against proposal from a weapons checker perspective, anticipating a large learning curve and difficulties in promulgating good weapons creation and checking between areas. KOFL speaks against proposal because of the added importance this would place on weapons check. Point of clarification is made regarding 2.5”diameter rule.
Novus Antiqus moves (Taurendor seconds) to table discussion until after Einherjar proposal has been made. No opposition.
Canaur proposal B, 5.1.1 addendums. NOD seconds.
Canaur proposes 3 additions to rules, reads formal proposal in its entirety (see attached).
KOFL speaks against proposal because of over-complication and lack of effectiveness at preventing cheating (non-armor being seen as armor). They believe that added wording does not benefit us in safety, playability, or realism. Anvard speaks against proposal believing it is too much, and could be summarized by one sentence defining what armor is in Dagorhir. Taurendor speaks for proposal comparing what we are voting on here with the wordy garb rules passed last year. Doesn’t believe there is any problem with these points. Akron speaks against proposal in contained manor – does not approve of 184.108.40.206 proposal, as rigid safety equipment is ignored by this rule. Proposes amendment 220.127.116.11 - Except for safety purposes, … (as seen in proposal).
Seconded by Nivol Astol. Maethodoron does not believe that safety gear should resemble armor in any way, and since we already speak for safety gear, does not believe this to be necessary. Winterfell speaks against amendment, against anything that looks like armor but is not armor. Taurendor believes that injuries which require safety gear, should construct real armor that protects that area. Amendment called by High Spires & Taurendor. 3 for amendment, 34 against. Amendment fails.
Return to main proposal. KOFL proposes amendment, removing 18.104.22.168, leaving all other parts as is. Antiva seconds. Taurendor speaks against amendment, echoing Winterfell’s sentiment above. Believes we need the rule to NOT bring something on the field that looks like armor but isn’t. Antiva speaks for the amendment because it does not specify what looks like armor. Canaur speaks against amendment using example of leather jerkin. If a leather jerkin looks like armor, then our armor standards are too low. Canaur believes that armor is self-evident, and is tied to 22.214.171.124. Da Jhur Gah speaks for amendment, believes that striking this does not change playability at all except for helmets, because only archers call shots. Akron speaks against amendment, because this is designed to specifically address issues of cheating and hence 126.96.36.199 should be included. Echoes sentiment of Canaur above. Novus Antiqus thinks discussion is based on premise of people wearing garb which looks like armor, and wants to know if people wearing garb that looks like armor has been a problem in some people’s chapters. 6 placards raised. NOD speaks against amendments, as playability issue. Taurendor speaks against amendment, saying cheaters will continue cheating without amendments that specifically oppose them. No opposition to closing debate.
Aratari moves to postpone discussion on amendment and motion until Thursday, Akron seconds. 22 for, 17 against. Postponed to Thursday.
188.8.131.52 addition to 4.1.3. Moved and seconded.
Full text of proposal – 184.108.40.206 (addition) – In order to ensure Rule 4.1.3, all weapons are tested at full force, by event appointed Weapons Checkers.
Dragonspire believes full force is too subjective, and doesn’t agree with wording. Aratari speaks for proposal, and believes that this describes what already occurs in weapons check. KOFL speaks in favor, as it speaks to what a legal Dagorhir weapon should be capable of. Akron speaks against, as this would create an error in rules in the case of failing spec weapons where full force swings would not be warranted.
Akron proposes amendment 220.127.116.11 - In order to ensure Rule 4.1.3, before being allowed onto the field, all weapons are tested at full force, by event appointed Weapons Checkers.
Aratari is against amendment, not believing that it is necessary to reduce injuries. Akron’s response insists that new chapters will read rules and swing ALL weapons passed at full force before it would be failed.
Maethodoron is against amendment wording. Additional echoing of above points occurs.
Taurendor calls question, NOD seconds. 29 for amendment, 4 opposed. Amendment carries.
Maethodoron proposes additional amendment, 18.104.22.168 - In order to ensure Rule 4.1.3, before being allowed onto the field, all weapons are tested at full force, by event appointed Weapons Checkers, unless previously failed by weapons checking staff for safety. Aratari seconds.
Mallenorod speaks against amendment, believing that once a weapon fails, it fails, and everything further is unnecessary. Winterfell is for amendment. Taurendor calls the question, Antiva seconds. 33 for, 5 opposed. Amendment passes.
Main motion voting – Anvard speaks for motion, believing it to be essential in ensuring good weapons testing. Winterfell ends debate, Taurendor seconds. Motion voted upon – 35 for, 3 opposed. Motion passes.
Return to Canaur proposal A – Taurendor believes that in light of Einherjar passing, this motion has no further drawbacks.
Aratari moves to postpone motion until Thursday, Einherjar seconds. 16 in favor of postponing, 20 against.
KOFL calls question, Taurendor seconds. 33 for, 5 opposed. Canaur Proposal A passes.
Winterfell proposal A made and seconded.
New 5.3.2 proposed which clarifies the definition of composite armor. New 22.214.171.124 indicates gaps in armor of ¾” ignored. New 126.96.36.199, similar to Canaur B on items of garb that appear to be armor.
Canaur asks for a point of information on 5.3.2 – does this imply that we must use pennies to check armor? If so, is it only for American pennies? Winterfell would be pleased if amendment is made to indicate American pennies.
Aratari moves to postpone discussion until Thursday, seconded. 28 for,5 against. Postponed to Thursday.
Winterfell Proposal B – indicates that members should NOT vote yes on both Proposal A and proposal B. New 5.3, 5.3.1, 5.3.2, 5.3.3 proposed. Maethodoron seconds. Winterfell B is withdrawn for now, as Winterfell A is tabled.
Adjourned at 8:25 PM with 28 for, 2 against.
Thursday Session – called to order at 6:18PM 6/21/2012
Chapters in Attendance: (41) Aggelgorod, Alterra, Antiva, Angaron, Anvard, Aratari, Kingdom of Akron, Byzantium, DaJhurGah, Dominion, Dragonspire, East Wind, Efoloma Isemoo, Einherjar, Eryndor, Esgaroth, Far Harad, Greyglade, High Spires, K’lar, Knightly Order of the Fiat Lux, Knor, Lostwithiel, Lyonesse, Maethodoron, Mittelmarch, Mordor, Mallenorod, NOD, Nordanmork, Novus Antiqus, Outlanders, Ravenwood, Dystopia, Realm of Chaos, Tartarus Invictus, Taurendor, Treefall, Westhammer, Wildwood, Winterfell
Aggelgorod calls a point of order and speaks to his displeasure that rules were passed on Monday, when that has not been RWC’s system previously. RWC Chair explains how the RWC bylaws work, and how Robert’s Rules of Order work. Aggelgorod makes a motion of no confidence in the RWC chair, motion not recognized.
Chair asks that Aggelgorod delegate be removed from assembly, no volunteers to remove him.
Mallenorod moves to reconsider the weapon hit test proposal. Seconded. (privilege : recount) 24 for, 13 against.
Motion on table: KOFL calls the question, seconded. 33 for, 2 opposes. Rule change passes (again).
Mallenorod moves to reconsider the weapons dimensions proposal. Seconded. (Re-reading of rules proposal prior to vote) 18 for, 18 against. Motion fails, rule change stands.
Grappling Rule continuance
Re-reading of rules, followed by Kingdom of Akron questioning the validity of the Secretary presenting the issue. Upheld that the secretary was not eligible to present the proposal. Proposal removed.
Maethodoron raises point of order motion to amend bylaws to remove Robert’s Rules of Order. Discussion ensues on best way to go back to the way RWC used to be run. Kingdom of Akron moves to permanently amend the bylaws, effective immediately, which simply states ‘Under RWC Chair: The list of responsibilities will say as such: Manage the flow of the meeting according to good order and procedure.’, replacing the section with Robert’s Rules of Order. Seconded.
KOFL speaks against the proposal, endorsing Robert’s Rules of order. Kingdom of Akron speaks for the proposal, indicating that good order should be the opinion of the body itself, not the chair. He acknowledges that Robert’s Rules of Order have their place, but believes that we can do better, as we have in years past. K’lar speaks against the motion. Although the meeting has not been run well, they still believe that Robert’s Rules of Order. They believe that the problem isn’t with the system, it’s with the individual meetings. Aratari speaks for the motion, indicating that since most representatives aren’t familiar with Robert’s Rules of Order, it isn’t appropriate for this meeting. Da Jhur Gah speaks against the motion, with 3 items to consider: 1) By whose judgment would the meeting be run? 2) In terms of discussion, why not have them outside of the session? 3) These bylaws have been on the books for 10 years, this is just a different interpretation of what we have in place, but we don’t need to replace the bylaws, we know they can already work well. Maethodoron moves to end debate, Einherjar seconds.
To close debate: 18 for, 15 against. Motion passes
In favor of amending bylaws: 12 for, 24 against. Motion fails
Canaur proposal B revisited
Re-reading of rules and amendments as presented Monday.
Novus Antiqus calls the question on the amendment to strike 188.8.131.52, seconded – 21 for, 16 against. Amendment approved.
Return to discussion on the main proposal. Anvard speaks against proposal, as being too complicated. Believes that it could be summed up with smaller amounts of text which would be less confusing and intimidating. Taurendor speaks for proposal, countering the point with the garb rules re-write which was passed last year and also wordy. KOFL moves to end discussion, seconded. 34 for, 1 opposed.
Motion vote: 29 for, 7 against. Motion passes
Winterfell proposal A revisited
Re-reading of rules changes proposed.
Winterfell speaks for the motion, as they believe the first part of this proposal fixes the rules to reflect the way most people already do things. Pointed Heart speaks against the proposal. Aratari speaks in favor of the proposal, but in a different proposal that they will present later. Mallenorod speaks for the proposal. They support all three parts, but would like to point out that this rule only deals with metal on leather. They propose an amendment to 5.3.2 remove the phrase ‘leather less than 3/16” thick’ and change it to ‘non-armor backing’, and also remove 'leather' at the start of the proposal. Seconded.
No objection to closing debate. Vote on amendment. 34 for, 1 against. Amendment passes
Einherjar moves to close debate – 24 for, 12 against.
Vote for the proposal: 30 for, 6 against. Motion passes.
Ragnarok will be held at Cooper’s Lake. 2 date options – June 16-23 or June 23-30.
Debate ensues on which dates would suit us better, mostly speaking for the later dates.
June 16-23 : 9 in favor
June 23-30: 28 in favor. Ragnarok will be held June 23-30, 2013.
Event Coordinator: Will Scarlit nominated, seconded. Affirmed by acclaim
Shadow: Mace nominated, accepted. Eryndor nominates Asashi, accepted. Taurendor nominates Tannhauser, accepted. Mace withdraws. Voting: 12 Asashi, 19 Tannhauser.
Day Events: Toland of Eryndor nominated, accepted. Da Jhur Gah nominates Ducky Mcfeelgood. Voting: 11 Toland, 24 Ducky
Night Events: Dust & Bones of Winterfell nominated, accepted. Nietzsche nominated, accepted. Voting: 17 Dust & Bones, 15 Nietzsche
Dean of Ragnarok University: Shatterhaze nominated, accepted. Affirmed by acclaim
Weapons Check: Blackhawk nominated, accepted. Affirmed by acclaim
Medic: Rayne nominated, accepted. Affirmed by acclaim
Security: Askarus nominated, accepted. Affirmed by acclaim
Troll: Jocelyn nominated, accepted. Twinkle nominated, accepted. Voting: 20 Jocelyn, 12 Twinkle.
RWC Chair: Zagar nominated, accepted. Dominus nominated, accepted. Voting: 17 Zagar, 18 Dominus
RWC Secretary: Zagar nominated, declines. Tannhauser nominated, accepted. Janwin nominated, accepted. Tannhauser withdraws. Janwin affirmed by acclaim.
Meeting adjourned at 8:14 PM.