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[Blk]

I have tried out a few combinations so far but haven't got anything that really fits.  I am looking for a style that fits with my other hobby, which is strongman.

Dagorhir is my second hobby and I would like it to mesh better with weights so I can incorporate it together and maybe even get some more people to lift if it is beneficial for fighting.  I am training movements that primarily focus on moving under load, thoracic extension, and overhead pressing.  Obviously they aren't direct fighting motions, but what style might be the best for someone like me?

[Fayne Erving]

 RED RED RED RED RED RED RED RED

No but seriously. Red.

Figure out which two hander you wanna be good with. A smaller, faster, minimum dimension red? Maybe a versatile power tool like a 55" well balanced sword? dMaybe a glaive? Maybe a big ol' axe or hammer? Maybe a 6 foot monster claymore?

Red till they're dead!

[RemytheWroth]

Single sword. 'nuff said.

[Dane]

I would recommend that you learn single sword to learn the fundamentals of fighting, and then any dominant style is going to benefit from your weight training.

[Blk]

Why in your opinions would you both recommend single blue?  I have 2 blues and just don't enjoy the style.

In terms of Reds, I have a 54" that I enjoyed, but I am way too slow for it.  My giant club failed so I wanted some suggestions before I buy new materials and build again

[Demox]

I usually fight single blue a bit at practice. The idea like Dane said is to get good at fundamentals of weapon blocking, footwork, etc. Then you move from there and you have a solid solid platform to leap from into other styles

[Dane]

Proper single blue will see you using an average-length weapon (32 - 34"), which forces you to engage your opponent and actively defend yourself without the benefit of a shield. This is going to force you to improve your closing, disengaging, and shot reading, and it's going to force you to improve your blocks, returns, baits, feints, and stutters, as you won't be able to kill a full-gear opponent by overwhelming him with the speed and number of your shots. When you learn how to defend yourself with just a sword and how to kill your opponent with just a sword, you're much more dangerous when you pick up a shield, a second weapon, a longer weapon, or what have you.

A lot of people don't like single blue, for whatever reason. Fighting single against someone else who knows what he's doing fighting single is a ton of fun for someone like me. Whether or not you like it, if you want to improve and work toward the upper echelons of fighting, you should bite the bullet and work your single (and ask a lot of questions of those who know what they're doing with that style). It'll pay dividends with everything else you do.

[Magnus]

Also, do left-handed single-blue a lot too. I devote at least 30 (maybe 45) minutes of every battle, practice, event, whatever to fighting with lefty single blue regardless of scenario or opposition and it's made me a better fighter, despite fighting in a realm that's almost entirely made up of n00bs. Fighting lefty will make you a better fighter when your right arm gets chopped off, and it will make you better at fighting as a righty against lefties.

[Blk]

I wasn't questioning the merits of single blue, but how that would mesh with my training and original question.  I am looking for a weapon that fits me, and mastering the art of blue weapons is not something I am aiming to do because I don't enjoy it, whether that is single, double or S&B. 

That all said, if single blue has valid reasons per training as opposed to improving general fighting, then I will use it.  I am focused on the fun aspect, not the competitive aspect (I know that is a foreign concept) as most of my training time is spent in preparation for SM meets.  Thus if I can get a weapon that will mesh well putting it in at every training session will kill three birds with one stone (strength, conditioning, weapon practice).

[Garret Ironshield]

Shortspear, because it's really fun, and it forces you move around a lot. Doesn't cover the strength aspect, but you'll enjoy it almost all of the time.

[Arrakis]

Here's something that a lot of people who grew up playing video games and D&D just don't "get".

There are no "weapon styles" for which any given person is just physically naturally inclined to by some sort of secret statistic written down on their character sheet somewhere.  Some people have preferences and some people seem to be naturally inclined, mentally, to certain styles, sure.  But there's no way to determine what you'll like or do well with except to have you pick up every style and try it, many times, in many situations, with many teachers.

In the same way, lifting weights is good for every style.  If you can crush peoples' sword blocks and demolish lines sword'n'board, good!  If you can break shields, literally actually break them, with a 5' red sword, great!  If you spear so hard you knock people over with a hit to the center of their tower shield, wonderful!

But it's not like "Oh, you do powerlifting?  You should definitely use a 39.8 oz 6'2" flatblade glaive with a stabbing tip and a 27" handle" or "Oh, you focus mostly on plyo and long-distance running?  Flail and mace, homie" the same way it's not like "Oh, you have an 18 STR, you should use two-handed weapons cause they benefit from Power Attack more" in real life.

[Garret Ironshield]

C'mon Arrakis, nobody ever uses Power Attack, you noob.

/lol

[Blk]

Here's something that a lot of people who grew up playing video games and D&D just don't "get".

There are no "weapon styles" for which any given person is just physically naturally inclined to by some sort of secret statistic written down on their character sheet somewhere.  Some people have preferences and some people seem to be naturally inclined, mentally, to certain styles, sure.  But there's no way to determine what you'll like or do well with except to have you pick up every style and try it, many times, in many situations, with many teachers.

In the same way, lifting weights is good for every style.  If you can crush peoples' sword blocks and demolish lines sword'n'board, good!  If you can break shields, literally actually break them, with a 5' red sword, great!  If you spear so hard you knock people over with a hit to the center of their tower shield, wonderful!

But it's not like "Oh, you do powerlifting?  You should definitely use a 39.8 oz 6'2" flatblade glaive with a stabbing tip and a 27" handle" or "Oh, you focus mostly on plyo and long-distance running?  Flail and mace, homie" the same way it's not like "Oh, you have an 18 STR, you should use two-handed weapons cause they benefit from Power Attack more" in real life.

Made me chuckle.  Yes I realize you can't pick a weapon I will love, I am apparently phrasing my question badly.  Are there any weapons which use under hand blows, pushing, or forward momentum of the body similar to the movements I listed?

You all are better at me at fighting and several have a lot of experience with different weapons (what I called styles) and I wondered if anything utilized these particular movements.  Single sword seems to me (and I am probably wrong) that it uses a lot of arm and shoulder strength in the lateral plane and can put a lot of stress on the elbow and wrist (of which I have plenty and don't want to double up).

If there just isn't anything like that, then that is an answer I am looking for.

Add:  If Dag is your main hobby and you decide to take up martial arts as a second hobby, but want it to be useful for Dag you would want to find a "style" that worked.  So wrestling, judo and possibly ju-jitsu would have some carry over but Muy Thai, karate and boxing, although good for conditioning, would be mostly useless.

[Magnus]

Single sword uses a lot of arm and wrist if you do it wrong. You should be using your hips to power the weapon, and it's just that sort of mechanics you will learn if you practice single sword regularly.

[Garret Ironshield]

Single sword uses a lot of arm and wrist if you do it wrong. You should be using your hips to power the weapon, and it's just that sort of mechanics you will learn if you practice single sword regularly.

What he said.

Seriously though, shortspear. It's fun as balls.

[Blk]

Single sword uses a lot of arm and wrist if you do it wrong. You should be using your hips to power the weapon, and it's just that sort of mechanics you will learn if you practice single sword regularly.

What he said.

Seriously though, shortspear. It's fun as balls.

Is that 6'?  Bandshoppe core or something else?

[Garret Ironshield]

Bandshoppe is cool. My old one was PVC, but it flex'd like crazy after a while.

[Magnus]

Thick kitespar for shortspear seems to do the trick. Ask Alric about it.

[Ryees]

This is a good thread. I think I'll stalk you guys for a while.

[Blk]

Thick kitespar for shortspear seems to do the trick. Ask Alric about it.

Would a poof spear or min spear using marine foam be the best?  I have a spare bandshoppe pole that I can cut down unless kitespar is superior.

[Cassin]

I've seen huge dudes do a big service to dense line fights with sword and shield, just by being very hard to move or stop.  But that requires being both well-muscled and at least a bit fat, preferably tall.

Other than that, just pick something.  Dag fighting uses different muscles differently from most other activities, and whatever you decide you like, you'll grow the musculature you need by doing it.

[Angus the Beefy]

http://www.facebook.com/groups/178433162242769/
Join your red brethren.

[Aondor]

Get a super long spear if your a strong man youll be able to manipulate it quickly and efficently

[Blk]

Get a super long spear if your a strong man youll be able to manipulate it quickly and efficently

I don't consider myself that strong as I am very much an amateur strong man.  What are good standards for a Dag only player in terms of squat, deadlift, etc.  And no, I am not going to try and make myself sound strong nor be judgmental, just really curious. 

[Demox]

Maxed on Squat at around 460 recently. Personal best was 500

Dead lift personal best was 600 haven't attempted DL in a long long time.

Maxed bench around 275. Personal best was 315

A bit of advice, don't pick up a red as your first style. You will be THAT guy that injures someone

[Aondor]

Maxed on Squat at around 460 recently. Personal best was 500

Dead lift personal best was 600 haven't attempted DL in a long long time.

Maxed bench around 275. Personal best was 315

A bit of advice, don't pick up a red as your first style. You will be THAT guy that injures someone

nice but how many times were you getting these?

[Demox]

I do 3 rep maxes and then calculate out what my 1 rep would be. Those are all the 1 rep numbers.

[Ianmoons]

I would try everything. I've got big guys that like shields (Love to bash) Red weapons (Duh, smash smash) Two weapons (A big guy can block a hit with his off hand that anyone else would need a shield) even a bow and arrow (A taller guy can see more, therefor hit more). No one stile fits with any given body type better than any other. It's the fighter behind the weapon that maters

[Ingvar the Ruthless]

As far as getting a workout while fighting goes, I'm pretty out of shape but I have never felt more of a burn in my stomach and back muscles than while using a two handed sword for a whole day practice. My red sword weighs in at about 4.5 lbs. with the balance about 6" above the crossguard. Try red out for a day and see how you like it. 


*Also, if you want to get used to carrying loads, I suggest you start wearing a maille hauberk at practices. It adds between 20-30 lbs to your weight, but the load is pretty easy to bear across the width of your whole shoulders and upper back. When I wear mine, I generally only feel it for the first hour or so, then don't notice it the rest of the day. [You will notice it big time when you take it off] Good luck with your strong man thing, hope it all turns out right for you.

[Aondor]

I do 3 rep maxes and then calculate out what my 1 rep would be. Those are all the 1 rep numbers.

what do you mean you calculate what the one rep would be?

like when i do maxes i don't count it as a max if i can't get it at least twice clean and the first rep never counts

[Blk]

As far as getting a workout while fighting goes, I'm pretty out of shape but I have never felt more of a burn in my stomach and back muscles than while using a two handed sword for a whole day practice. My red sword weighs in at about 4.5 lbs. with the balance about 6" above the crossguard. Try red out for a day and see how you like it. 


*Also, if you want to get used to carrying loads, I suggest you start wearing a maille hauberk at practices. It adds between 20-30 lbs to your weight, but the load is pretty easy to bear across the width of your whole shoulders and upper back. When I wear mine, I generally only feel it for the first hour or so, then don't notice it the rest of the day. [You will notice it big time when you take it off] Good luck with your strong man thing, hope it all turns out right for you.

My 8' club was a pretty awesome workout but with it failing I gave it up and haven't fought for a while.  I like that idea, though for $ I might just use a weighted vest for practices.

And thanks for the well wishes, I am working pretty hard this summer as I finally have all the implements I need to train (except an axle).  Plan is to watch a few more shows and talk to the pros to master technique then hit at least three competitions next year. 

And to everyone else, thank you for the suggestions - working on a spear and attempting to fix the club again.

[Demox]

I do 3 rep maxes and then calculate out what my 1 rep would be. Those are all the 1 rep numbers.

what do you mean you calculate what the one rep would be?

like when i do maxes i don't count it as a max if i can't get it at least twice clean and the first rep never counts

http://www.builtlean.com/2011/08/17/one-rep-max-chart-how-much-you-can-lift/

Powerlifting 101. Based on that chart my 3 rep max on bench is 286lbs.

[Garret Ironshield]

working on a spear

Yay!

[Cassin]

I'd wager that less than 10% of Dagorhir keeps track of what they can bench press, squat, etc.
The only numbers I can assign to my fitness are that I can bike a fifty mile day and one time I almost jumped with a 280-pound dude on my back.  If you even keep track of your fitness in detail, you're probably at or above the average.
You won't just start winning when you pick up the right weapon, either.  Pick something that feels fun.  You won't be smooth at it until you have a lot of practice.  Eventually, it will feel right.  Or at least normal.

Here's how I divide weapon sets.  If none of these suit you, you're probably SOL.
SHIELDMEN
Ball&Wall, Punch&Pie, Spartan, big shield/small weapon, various forms of medium/small shield and medium swords or other blues.  Strap or punch, take your pick.

SKIRMISH SUPPORT
Redsword, short spear, short glaive, lolhammer/axe, pole flail, staff

LINE SUPPORT
Long spear, long glaive, pole axe.  Hook or no hook, your call.

ARCHERY
Dedicated archer, dual-class shieldman

[Magnus]

I don't really understand why spears are called "support" weapons--they kill a lot more people than sword and shield do in a line battle. Are they "support" because they need support from shields to not get rushed by the other team or killed by archers?

[Tycho Velius]

I always tell people that shieldmen are infantry. Their job is to hold ground.
Spears are armor. Their job is to clear ground and let infantry push up, but without infantry support, they get mobbed.
Archers are air strikes.

(Most of my friends play FPS games.)

[Anvildude]

From what you're saying; squats, lifts, underarm/handed strikes- I actually think short or longspear would be pretty good for you.  See what you can do about getting one with some significant weight behind it, and a hook, and you'll be able to move people around at a distance due to your own bodymass and stability.

Look into getting at least a chain hauberk or full-plate, especially with a spear- the armour will save you some from being rushed, and like was said earlier, you'll get some endurance training out of it.


Alternatively, go with a big ol' 2 handed hammer, with like, 10 pounds of weight in the head.  You should be able to maneuver it easily and get it swinging rather quickly, especially from low positions, which people won't expect (they always think about the big overhead smashes, but not so much about a red coming up from the ground at speed or with force).  2 sides allow you to do quick backswings that, once again, your mass and practice with maneuvering weights around will allow you to do with more speed and force than will be expected.

[Cassin]

I don't really understand why spears are called "support" weapons--they kill a lot more people than sword and shield do in a line battle. Are they "support" because they need support from shields to not get rushed by the other team or killed by archers?

Yes, I think so.  One could argue that shieldmen should be called support, but a lone shieldman can still fight well and defend himself effectively from every weapon set.

[Garret Ironshield]

I think SnB is called "infantry" because they are the basis of the game pretty much. Infantry are the basis of of armies (I guess), so they naturally fit that role.

Plus, there's a lot of them.

[Sarus]

I don't really understand why spears are called "support" weapons--they kill a lot more people than sword and shield do in a line battle. Are they "support" because they need support from shields to not get rushed by the other team or killed by archers?

They're support weapons because they support the main battle line, which is formed by SnB. Spears need a wall to hide behind and soak up arrows while they go about their bloody business. Pretty much the same thing you said, but the emphasis is different.

[Blk]

Club is remade and passed at practice - hoping it passes at next weeks event.  Decided to go with an 8' spear as well and it packs a punch (min dimensions with yoga).  Not confident on this one. 

Practice went well, just need to decide which to focus on as both were a lot more fun and physically exerting than the blues.

Thanks again!

[Garret Ironshield]

Decided to go with an 8' spear as well and it packs a punch (min dimensions with yoga).  Not confident on this one. 

As in, you don't think you'll like it, or you don't think it will pass?

Because in the former case, stick with it, hard stabs to the gut are fun.

And in the latter case, make another spear with the traditional POOF stab tip, and bring both to events. You'll always have at least one spear that passes ~100% of the time as long as it's in good repair.

[Twolf]

I am looking for a style that fits with my other hobby, which is strongman.

I am training movements that primarily focus on moving under load, thoracic extension, and overhead pressing.

It seems to me like your best style might be just shield and your opponent's weapon after you've grappled it away from them.  Failing that, a very heavy shield will help you with your exercises (think 3/4" plywood core), and you can try to wreck lines with it.

[Varadin]

Club is remade and passed at practice - hoping it passes at next weeks event.  Decided to go with an 8' spear as well and it packs a punch (min dimensions with yoga).  Not confident on this one. 

Practice went well, just need to decide which to focus on as both were a lot more fun and physically exerting than the blues.

Thanks again!

BLK you going to be there on the 14th? I plan on tripping up i can work with you some.

[Blk]

Club is remade and passed at practice - hoping it passes at next weeks event.  Decided to go with an 8' spear as well and it packs a punch (min dimensions with yoga).  Not confident on this one. 

Practice went well, just need to decide which to focus on as both were a lot more fun and physically exerting than the blues.

Thanks again!

BLK you going to be there on the 14th? I plan on tripping up i can work with you some.

Planning on it.  Having some minor surgery on the 13th but that shouldn't stop me.

[Blk]

Decided to go with an 8' spear as well and it packs a punch (min dimensions with yoga).  Not confident on this one. 

As in, you don't think you'll like it, or you don't think it will pass?

Because in the former case, stick with it, hard stabs to the gut are fun.

And in the latter case, make another spear with the traditional POOF stab tip, and bring both to events. You'll always have at least one spear that passes ~100% of the time as long as it's in good repair.

Worried about it passing.  Ever since my club failed on medium I worry.  I am not a craftsman and I can't judge hits very well - beating myself up on a regular basis has messed up my pain receptors; short of attempting a wooden core I haven't ever felt something that I felt would be dangerous.


In regards to the shield/grappling: I would love to do this but the opinions for what is ok from person to person are so different I am just avoiding it until I have practiced a lot more.

[Cassin]

If you can take it to an experienced checker, have him check it out.  If there are no experienced checkers around, you might want to just strip it down and try an easier build.  Closed-cell low-profile spear tips can be done with materials available at Wal-Mart, but that doesn't mean they're a wise choice for a beginner.  And you aren't saving more than an inch of diameter over a 3.5" POOF stabby anyway.

[Varadin]

<---- experience checker and will be there on the 14th.