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Author Topic: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread  (Read 1329 times)

Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« on: June 26, 2012, 03:15:20 pm »
Ok guys, fire away with your thoughts on Rag 27 Armor check.  Good, Bad, Ugly, let me hear it all so we can use the info to make things better and smoother next year!
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Thrush Svartehjertet

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2012, 03:20:39 pm »
My armor is awesome and passed.

Thrush
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Janwin

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2012, 03:23:34 pm »
Those bastards failed my greaves for being pointy at the bottom!

How dare they fail my metal greaves which should have failed multiple years prior!
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Magnus

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2012, 03:25:23 pm »
My helm passed and looked good.

I'm a bit surprised none of the heralds commented on my PD gauntlets, though. I was a little worried they would think for a second I was breaking the rules by wearing metal on the hands--but that probably just means my PD work needs improvement!
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Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2012, 03:30:25 pm »
My helm passed and looked good.

I'm a bit surprised none of the heralds commented on my PD gauntlets, though. I was a little worried they would think for a second I was breaking the rules by wearing metal on the hands--but that probably just means my PD work needs improvement!

got a pic?  would love to see them!
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Magnus

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2012, 03:34:48 pm »
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Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2012, 03:38:57 pm »
those look much better than MMA gloves plain.  there was some discussion among Armor and Garb just before Rag about similar stuff, so they might have been passed due to those discussions.

I would have liked to have them seen in person, but gloves are a garb issue unless checked as armor
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Vadania

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2012, 03:58:20 pm »
Personally I believe that armor check was awesome. I loved being able to fight people whose armor was actually acceptable. A huge thank you to everyone that was checking armor. I hope to see the same standards again next year.
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2012, 04:08:52 pm »
I hope to see the same standards again next year.

Tighter.
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Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2012, 04:13:10 pm »
I hope to see the same standards again next year.

Tighter.

Rules as written, no exceptions.
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Sváva The SpaceWolf

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2012, 04:15:32 pm »
Magnus, you're just out to make all the pretty things, aren't you?
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2012, 04:18:10 pm »
I hope to see the same standards again next year.

Tighter.

Rules as written, no exceptions.

PAY ATTENTION, ALL OF YOU!

This means that if we had to measure your armor more than once or twice to "make" it legal, it ain't passing next year.

Start making adjustments NOW.
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Inextirpable Kyrax

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2012, 04:22:07 pm »
Note, new rules as written.  The piece on so-called composite armor has been updated.
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2012, 04:26:25 pm »
Kyrax, that literally came up in my checks two or three times. Too-thin leather was constant.
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Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2012, 04:48:29 pm »
once i get the final minutes and stuff from RWC, I will post.  Once Blackhawk appoints his Head Armor Check, they will post any interpretations as soon as possible.  This year was a wake up that next year is going to be strict.  I will not search for a passing spot like i did this year.  I had a ton of 11/64" and less that i "floated" the calipers until i found a 3/16", that will not be the case next year.  I am also proposing a strict time schedule for Armor Check as 10am - Noon.  I will not be posted at Garb Gates.  I will not "Come to You" to check your ****.  I may make an exception late in the week for the heavy arrivals (Thursday after price drop) and have a single "Late Check", but I will not be floating Armor check in camp next year.
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2012, 04:54:32 pm »
MOVED

Some people thought the checkers were looking for fail spots, when in actuality they were looking for passing spots. Simple matter of communication. Might I suggest next year the checkers mumble pass fail as they run the calipers over the armor so the owners know what's up?

That's essentially what I was doing, and I don't know of any other checkers that were trying to fail passing armor. Sometimes I had to check a piece six, seven, eight times to find a single passing place.

Look, if we wanted to fail armor, I could have easily failed 90% of the leather I checked. Going by the letter of the MOA, I could have simply put the calipers on one place, and when it read less than 3/16", said "FAIL" and moved on to the next piece or person. And I bet you green American money I can find a thin spot on damned near every piece of leather I touch.

This year, we came into check with the idea that we'd check a couple places, and, if it was clear that the leather used was actually 9 to 11 ounce stuff, we'd fail the piece. About five people into armor check on Monday morning, it became painfully obvious that damned near nobody in Dagorhir is building leather armor from leather that is actually 3/16" thick. I saw readings on the calipers of 5/32" and 11/64" WAAAAAAAY more than I ever saw them reading 3/16" or greater. If we'd kept doing what we started off wanting to do, we'd have failed at least half the armor we checked.

As it ended up working, we'd check and check and check and check until we found one or two places that were thicker than average, and gave us 3/16". For example, there was a guy who showed up wearing a lamellar skirt made from Tandy's pre-punched scales: http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/search/searchresults/44228-25.aspx

Says right there that they're made from 9-10oz leather. I KNOW this, and I knew what they were as soon as I saw them. But, in the interests of getting armor on the field and reducing butthurt, I checked ten scales on that guy's skirt until I found a thick one, and passed it.

And, let me tell you, my morning would have gone a hell of a lot faster if I'd simply failed stuff that measured below spec. So anyone trying to argue that we were looking to fail armor can suck it.

(Lawful Neutral OCD) **** That! Seriously? Follow that goddamned rules. I don't give a **** if people get butt hurt. The dude who checked my armor **** bricks because it was so ****ing thick he looked at it and knew it passed. If you can't afford to build passing armor YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO HAVE ARMOR! Get this **** off the field. The only way we will have people building real armor is to enforce the rules. If you want to change the rules fine, I will not complain. But as it stands **** getting more armor on the field and start getting LEGAL armor on the field.

You know how hard it is to add a layer of thiner leather to make Legal thickness? NOT HARD. I Agonize over every inch of my armor to make sure it passes. I'm offended that people get a pass on their ****ty armor because people don't want to fail it.

I'll run armor check next year, **** on it. It's about time we start following the rules of our own game. This p**** footed bull**** needs to stop. Rag is our Superbowl, come with your game face, and legal gear or get the **** out.

Edit: Please imagine this whole rant as being screamed with a mouth full of blood and Rage Foam.
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Tooka the Gangly Goblin

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2012, 05:23:56 pm »
So if at any point on the armor, there is an 11/64 spot, it fails?

*sigh* Time to remake all my armor with 14oz. Shouldn't have had it tooled. :(
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Sváva The SpaceWolf

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2012, 05:26:33 pm »
So if at any point on the armor, there is an 11/64 spot, it fails?

*sigh* Time to remake all my armor with 14oz. Shouldn't have had it tooled. :(

Hey hey! Just back it with more leather! That's what Flora did and her stuff still looks fantastic!

You can do it!
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Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2012, 05:32:58 pm »
So if at any point on the armor, there is an 11/64 spot, it fails?

*sigh* Time to remake all my armor with 14oz. Shouldn't have had it tooled. :(

If i hit it with the calipers and the first measurement is more than 1/64 off the mark, yes.  If it was in a line, heavy tool mark, etc.  i may check again.  if it was flat leather and 5/32, i am not searching for passing spots.  I will simply direct people to the vendors to get it fixed.

  I did in fact drop my calipers into a V groove on a 1/4" thick piece of armor and got an 1/8" measurement.  I told the guy the thickness and he politely asked if i could check a NON-Grooved spot.  I did, hit 1/4" and apologized for the scare.
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Adricus

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2012, 05:41:53 pm »
I put on my armor, walked up, got measured, and walked off with nothing but pass stickers and a "Now THATS a war skirt" comment. (My war skirt has 2 completely overlapping layers)

Why could this be?  Perhaps its because I made my armor is thick and safe  ;)

Well done guys.  I do feel a bit sorry for people who spent good money to buy quality armor and still had it fail, but this stringent checking should hopefully trickle down to consumer awareness.
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Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2012, 06:38:09 pm »
i saw and passed some amazing armor.  the dude with the 1/4" thick studded armor where the studs were 1/4" apart made my day!  He had on like a total of 7 pieces of armor (greaves, bracers, chest, shoulders, and maybe even tassets...)  It was well above and beyond what needed to be done, but he will never have a thickness issue with leather being allowed as armor.
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Alric

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2012, 06:51:32 pm »
Really minor issue: I wasted 10 minutes (oh boo hoo) standing in the wrong line (metal and leather) before a checker pointed me to the correct one (metal only). Some simple signs saying which line is which, for Monday when things are busy, would be great.
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Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2012, 07:18:06 pm »
Really minor issue: I wasted 10 minutes (oh boo hoo) standing in the wrong line (metal and leather) before a checker pointed me to the correct one (metal only). Some simple signs saying which line is which, for Monday when things are busy, would be great.

already in the works!  Will also have armor check times posted
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2012, 10:41:09 pm »
Really minor issue: I wasted 10 minutes (oh boo hoo) standing in the wrong line (metal and leather) before a checker pointed me to the correct one (metal only). Some simple signs saying which line is which, for Monday when things are busy, would be great.

I had a similar problem, and that's really all I have to complain about.

Separate stickers denoting a pass on each individual piece instead of on the rag tag was a great idea, thus preventing people from bringing failing armor onto the field like last year, and enforcing the 3/16" leather rule was also awesome. Sure, a lot of people's armor failed, and a lot of people were bummed about it, but I think it helped remove a lot of crappy armor that wouldn't really offer protection anyways.
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2012, 01:07:43 am »
Finding all the pass stickers was a bit difficult sometimes.
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2012, 01:21:22 am »
We tried to keep everything on the right side all of the armor. We're not quite master of the art yet.
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2012, 01:23:49 am »

what kind of mma gloves are those?
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Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2012, 01:30:03 am »
two points check out http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php/topic,25567.0.html and read the linked UNOFFICIAL armor revisions as passed by RWC 27.  Please let me know if you see discrepancies, and make specific notes about said same!
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2012, 09:14:33 am »
what kind of mma gloves are those?

Those are Century MMA gloves with armor-like plates made of Fun Foam coated with Plasti-Dip and painted silver.

I think I need to re-do them with a better adhesive, as some of the pieces were peeling off by mid-week. But, hey, I have a year to get that done, and after making my shield I know more about how to use Plasti-Dip, so it should work out fine.
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2012, 09:33:09 am »
Try Barge Cement instead of Dap.
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2012, 09:46:23 am »
I'd like to thank all those who helped out this Rag.  I'd also like to apologize for the outburst I had.  It was frustrating to have armor, that's always passed, fail. Then to get nailed by the Garb Gates for maybe a half inch of black logo-free under-armor shirt.

I got over it, I had fun.   
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2012, 09:47:28 am »
Try Barge Cement instead of Dap.

Good to know! Actually, I think the current version just used the adhesive backing from the peel & stick foam... :-\
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Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2012, 01:46:19 pm »

what kind of mma gloves are those?

Next year, items like this will fall under

5.1.3.1 - Items of Garb that appear to be armor, at the discretion of either the event's armor checker or garb checker, or any herald, may not be worn on the field.

My current stance is to allow them on the field with a special tag representing that they are Garb, not Armor.  Garb Gates will have to check as well.
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2012, 02:09:38 pm »
Those look pretty much like MMA gloves, made up to not look so offensive in a stick dork game. I doubt anything looking like this would be mistaken for armor. Can that pleeeeeeeeease be a noted exception? Please? Anything to make tape-falling-off logo'd MMA gloves less prevalent? Pleasepleaseplease?
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Sir Stellaria of the Crockery

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2012, 02:29:03 pm »
We'll try and find a way to allow them. Right now, I'm leaning towards asking them if they plan to fight single blue. If not, then the hand will always be on a weapon, and hence, not a legal target, and so obviously nor armor.

See what I did there?
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Primarch Ser Hivemind Saligia of The Cairnhold Legion, Winterfell: A drinking unit with a fighting problem.
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2012, 02:32:11 pm »
Next year, items like this will fall under

5.1.3.1 - Items of Garb that appear to be armor, at the discretion of either the event's armor checker or garb checker, or any herald, may not be worn on the field.

My current stance is to allow them on the field with a special tag representing that they are Garb, not Armor.  Garb Gates will have to check as well.

Actually, they don't look like armor. Rigid metal armor on the hands is expressly forbidden in Dagorhir, so if I was wearing them on the field, they must not be armor.
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Thrush Svartehjertet

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2012, 02:39:01 pm »


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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2012, 02:50:13 pm »
Actually, they don't look like armor. Rigid metal armor on the hands is expressly forbidden in Dagorhir, so if I was wearing them on the field, they must not be armor.

That might also be acceptable, semantically. There are several chapters that still allow metal hands, because LARP physics doesn't real, but that's not the national standard, so the heck with them (us).
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Primarch Ser Hivemind Saligia of The Cairnhold Legion, Winterfell: A drinking unit with a fighting problem.
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Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2012, 02:53:34 pm »
Next year, items like this will fall under

5.1.3.1 - Items of Garb that appear to be armor, at the discretion of either the event's armor checker or garb checker, or any herald, may not be worn on the field.

My current stance is to allow them on the field with a special tag representing that they are Garb, not Armor.  Garb Gates will have to check as well.

Actually, they don't look like armor. Rigid metal armor on the hands is expressly forbidden in Dagorhir, so if I was wearing them on the field, they must not be armor.

Agreed.  the "plates" on these gloves are actually Plastidip Fun Foam pieces from my understanding.  They look less mundane, hide the logo, and I feel enhance the general look of the game a bit (note to Stell) as opposed to regular MMA.  As stated, armor check is leaning toward allowing them unless the person has something stupid to say.  Also, Rap and his crew will have to weigh in at Garb Gates, given that I think they will not be brought to Armor Check first as they are not armor.
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Siguric

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2012, 02:57:19 pm »
Hey guys! You should make an attempt to make your MMA gloves less noticeable!

Wait, you made them kinda sorta look like armor? Can't wear them now.

You ****s are getting ridiculous.
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2012, 03:01:26 pm »
Hey guys! You should make an attempt to make your MMA gloves less noticeable!

Wait, you made them kinda sorta look like armor? Can't wear them now.

You ****s are getting ridiculous.

Do you not see us here trying to figure out how to allow them within the rules? Make no mistake - if we didn't want them on the field, we could bounce them. We're trying to allow them, and to not feel like we're compromising our principles or breaking the rules to do so. And you're bitching? Go get ****ed.
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Primarch Ser Hivemind Saligia of The Cairnhold Legion, Winterfell: A drinking unit with a fighting problem.
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Thrush Svartehjertet

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2012, 03:11:36 pm »
Hey look, the PR dept. and HR depts. are fighting...  *pops popcorn*  You guys is silly.  Let's be constructive and make the game look better!  lol

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2012, 03:17:59 pm »
Looking better is great. Lots of things would make us look better, like ringmesh and riveted aluminum chain and plastic/fiberglass costume armor and polished aluminum plate armor and lighter weight leather armor.

None of those things are legal either.
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Primarch Ser Hivemind Saligia of The Cairnhold Legion, Winterfell: A drinking unit with a fighting problem.
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Thrush Svartehjertet

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2012, 03:21:08 pm »
Troof...

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Siguric

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2012, 03:23:39 pm »
Do you not see us here trying to figure out how to allow them within the rules? Make no mistake - if we didn't want them on the field, we could bounce them. We're trying to allow them, and to not feel like we're compromising our principles or breaking the rules to do so. And you're bitching? Go get ****ed.

I'm saying you ****ing pukes need to stop taking yourself and this game so god damned seriously.

First you say one thing. Then when someone complies with that, you find another way to bitch about it.
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Tooka the Gangly Goblin

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2012, 03:32:57 pm »
5.1.3.1 - Items of Garb that appear to be armor, at the discretion of either the event's armor checker or garb checker, or any herald, may not be worn on the field.


May the discretion be with you Magnus.
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Stellaria

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2012, 03:34:03 pm »
5.1.3.1 - Items of Garb that appear to be armor, at the discretion of either the event's armor checker or garb checker, or any herald, may not be worn on the field.


May the discretion be with you Magnus.

High five, young one.
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Sir Stellaria of the Crockery

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2012, 03:45:46 pm »
Incidentally, they're more safety equipment than garb. I wear them because I'm not allowed to grapple when wearing Dag-legal armor hand protection.
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Knight of Taurendor
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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2012, 03:59:47 pm »
A- from across the field when i say Magnus in his gloves i thought they were metal.

B- You failed some of my armor therefor i Think all of these rules and checks are stupid

C- I already fixed my armor( so quit complaining ya'll and fix your gear)
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Timmourne Darkwater - Lord Marshall - Rangers of Ithilien

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Re: Rag 27 Armor Complaint and compliment thread
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2012, 06:15:51 pm »
B- You failed some of my armor therefor i Think all of these rules and checks are stupid

Taken outta context, this would make me laugh.  I am glad you fixed the failing stuff, I look forward to seeing it again next year!
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