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[Rap the Space Drunk]

Welcome to Coffee Talk, here we talk about Garb Gates.

I'm running it again next year despite nerd threats, and rumor has it we're spreading to more events than just Rag....

What did people like?
What did people hate?


My biggest personal beef with this year was inconsistency between genders and modern hats. It was a hotter than most Rag, so hats got a bit of a slide in general, but that will not be the case moving forward. Mantles, hoods, and wide brimmed straw hats will all keep the sun off, if not better, than anything from a Dick's or Aeropostale. Also, the non com and female fighter population of Dagorhir is woefully under garbed. We started out enforcing min requirements on both genders, but the fact of the matter is that a very large contingent of women in Dagorhir do not have garb.

YOU HAVE 12 MONTHS LADIES! CONSIDER YOURSELVES WARNED


Overall though, I was very satisfied with the garb on the field this Rag and think we as a sport/game/hobby made some great strides. For every 1 person we had to correct, dozens of you were looking fantastic 

[Lady Krystal]

My biggest beef was the inconsistency in footwear standards this year.

Day one, I got sent back for dirty shoelaces on black tennis shoes (the laces originally were white, they definitely weren't white by the time I obtained the shoes from my unit mate xD) and then during the FIRST battle I'm teamed with a guy in brand new black and white converse high tops; no logos marked out, bright white shoelaces, white plastic toes and all.

I also saw someone heading up in bright neon vibrams, but was on my way back to camp to change out my laces so I never saw if they were denied or not. Someone on the field said they were treating vibrams as "safety equipment" - which if that's the case I wanna call BS on it with a quickness.

The chick on Monday who was fighting in the corset top and her tits bouncing out of her top all day was an unwelcome sight too. Someone said they told her she couldn't field without taking her sports bra off because it was visible under the corset. I think that it definitely needs to be addressed that if someone is going to jiggle their **** out in public without the bra to hold them in - they need to be sent back to camp to garb into something else. Save the corset (or the bare titties) for night life, Mardi Gras.. whatever. I don't want to see someone's chest bouncing in the wind when I'm trying to fight. (Disclaimer: I canNOT verify if the garb gates told her she had to remove the sports bra, but if they're going to deny people for them being visible they should require them to garb into something that will not threaten to be at risk of indecent exposure on the field if they remove it.)

After the shoelace incident, I was a bitch on the field if I saw people in visible underarmor, modern ball caps, t-shirts, or anything else. I apologize to anyone I came off as a huge bitch to, but if I had to go re-lace my tennis shoes... **** everyone else 

[Ravus]

I was a big fan of how quickly fighters were able to file through and get to the field. This could have easily been a cluster **** but from what i saw it all went fairly smoothly.

My only suggestions are based in what i saw helping out monday. First: a strict set of guidelines would be awesome. I know the jobs inherently subjective, but is rolling in a t-shirt hem enough? How about cutting it? How much under armor is too much? What if it blends in with the tunic its under? Etc etc. Second, while i agree that people should be goddamn adults about this, would it be possible to swing some rag funding for like, 3 rolls of tape, some sharpies, and like, 20 yards of ****ty cotton fabric and some safety pins? It may help cut down on the butthurt and boost compliance if we coukd help everyone then and there instead of throwing them down the hill.

[Thanatos]

non-coms should not be held to as high of a standard as fighters... min garb should be enforced but they need not be so picky... **** such as t shirt collars? cmon... if your going to enforce stuff like that make some guidelines and make sure everyone follows them... the inconsistency of garb gates were ridiculous 

[Ravus]

Not all inconsistency was gates fault. A lot of people snuck on after gates closed, or covered it up only to strip back down to their fail-garb on the field. Thats what garb haralds are for.

[Rap the Space Drunk]

Krystal- Consistency from checker to checker will be priority for us as an organization. If someone is lax then the hard work someone else put in enforcing a tough call is pointless, not to mention I don't want the dagorhir population to be yo-yo'ed around. This is a legitimate effort to enforce and improve garb and should be treated with the same respect (both ways, checker to fighter and fighter to checker) as weapons check or armor check.

That being said, we found the 'weak points' so to speak of Dag garb in general, and footwear is definitely on the list. Whoever said vibrams are safety equipment was misinformed. A shoe is a shoe is a shoe to me, so as long as the colors/laces/whatever are non obtrusive, a combat boot is ok next to toe shoes or sneakers. More cloth tape to cover logos/bright shoes will be brought this year and will significantly help out that effort. Bra straps (more specifically tank tops/spaghetti straps) were a bit of an issue Monday but was corrected and no longer an issue the rest of the week. That does not mean they are passing garb, and will be refused next year, but I came to the realization most of the female participants ONLY had those tops. With 12 months of harping, hopefully that will be better.

[Rap the Space Drunk]

Thanatos- if you have a Rag Tag, if you paid troll, you are expected to be in garb. Whether you fight or not is irrelevant. The fighting area is the only place we're actively enforcing these requirements, but it doesn't mean garb is any less important otherwise.

As far as t-shirts go, if it's visible, it needs to come off. Same with Underarmor. Conveniently, Sir Dev found out if you roll the collar down on an underarmor shirt it stays in place tightly and significantly reduces how much is visible. So if you have a black tunic, with a black underarmor shirt rolled down, that half inch isn't an issue. Now if you have a v neck cut on your tunic or something like that, no tucking or rolling will cover it and the underarmor will need to come off.

[Stellaria]

non-coms should not be held to as high of a standard as fighters... min garb should be enforced but they need not be so picky... **** such as t shirt collars? cmon... if your going to enforce stuff like that make some guidelines and make sure everyone follows them... the inconsistency of garb gates were ridiculous 

I call bullsh*t on this. Ragnarok is a garbed event. Period. All attendees, regardless of combatant/noncombatant status, must be garbed at all times when outside the confines of their own camp. The rules are being enforced where heralds/checkers are present. Please make sure that ALL of your camp's members are adequately garbed at all times.

Ideally, there should be no discussion on how to disguise a t-shirt or tank top or cargo shorts, etc. T-shirts are not garb; tank tops are not garb. Do not wear them.

Stay tuned for an upcoming Garb Challenge. In the helpful spirit of the $20 garb challenge, I will be hosting a Feminized Tunic garb challenge, complete with prizes.

[Gaul]

If you're short on volunteers next year, count me in.  All I need is a clear explanation of where and how we're drawing the line, and I'll cheerfully enforce those standards for a day, maybe two.  I could use a good opportunity to play the ******* for a while, anyway.

[Rap the Space Drunk]

All volunteers are welcome, the job isn't terribly difficult and if anyone gets violent send them to me.

[Odran]

I also noticed some rather lax standards regarding footwear. I saw some people in flip-flops. I generally am not that picky about footwear, since shoes can be expensive. However, "tolerable looking" sandals can be found at most department stores for under $30. There really is no excuse or reason to be wearing flip-flops.

Regarding the corset top, I don't think garb gate can fail something for being too revealing unless it is indecent-exposure bad. While I think there are people of both genders who should be covering themselves more, the MOA does not regulate modesty beyond what is required by state & laws and campground rules.

[Ravus]

Thats another plus. I dont think i saw any garb checkers be anything but respectful and helpful. If any scrubs copped a 'tude, they were referred to rap who handled it like a pro.

[Stellaria]

Did anyone notice much of a problem with people trying to wear things sold on Merchant Circle that weren't ok? I only had to tell one kid to go ditch the steampunk goggles (worn on the forehead, not the eyes, in true steampunk fashion ) and he complied immediately, apologizing that he figured since he bought them at Rag, he figured they auto-passed. Just curious if that was a one-off, or a potential problem to be addressed.

[Rap the Space Drunk]

The steampunk gear was the only problem I had, and I addressed Simon about it. Next year there will hopefully be a sign or something advertising that those items aren't Dagorhir field appropriate.

[Lady Krystal]

I also noticed some rather lax standards regarding footwear. I saw some people in flip-flops. I generally am not that picky about footwear, since shoes can be expensive. However, "tolerable looking" sandals can be found at most department stores for under $30. There really is no excuse or reason to be wearing flip-flops.

I fully expected my flip flops to fail when I wore them to the field on Wednesday. I had no intention of wearing them to -fight- in.. just to wear down the gravel road and across Currie road before I took 'em off while I was arching. I was honest to goodness surprised when they just gave me a once over for passing stickers, checked my tag, and sent me through. They weren't even remotely muted flip flops either.. full on teal with sparkly beads on them xD I half wonder if it was just general "**** it" that got me by, or if the guy checking just didn't want to have the headache if he called me on it and anticipated an argument over my footwear (which I wouldn't have - but who's to say that he hadn't already had an earful from multiple others before me).

Regarding the corset top, I don't think garb gate can fail something for being too revealing unless it is indecent-exposure bad. While I think there are people of both genders who should be covering themselves more, the MOA does not regulate modesty beyond what is required by state & laws and campground rules.

Her nipples had to be x'd out with electrical tape because they couldn't be contained by the corset top. I consider that to be indecent-exposure bad. I might be in the minority on that one (and I'm glad to see it was addressed early in the week - mad props to you Rap for adapting as new stuff came up!) but if you can't fight or perform your duties on the field without threatening to put an eye out with your chest flopping around; it needs to be covered up.

Cleavage I can handle (and would be amiss to say I don't encourage when appropriate ) but full fledged flopping is a no-go.

[Briar Rose]

I agree. Ragnarok is a garbed event. Being a non-com is NO excuse. I wore linen during some very hot days and was comfortable. If you don't want to make it, buy it. We have some very nice vendors with garb in a range of prices. Even little kids are running around in nicer garb than some of the adults.

Payless recently had a BOGO sale and I saw plenty of sandals for men and women. I paid all of $10 for my sandals. At the end of the summer there will be extra sales on sandals and at the end of the winter there are extra sales on boots. You don't need to go all Catskill Mtn. Moccasins for passing footwear.

I had no trouble walking through the gates, being given a once-over for garb, and being checked for Rag Tag. It seemed to go quite smoothly and I was glad to see the gates with more than one poor soul stuck with the job.

[Tater the wine maker, sword unit of K'lar]

I do not like the way i look in sandals, but I wore leather dress shoes the whole event. dark brown and black. would that have been considered marginal garb or just acceptable? I'll be shopping for more appropriate shoes in the future

[Stellaria]

That is acceptable. For shoes, "unobtrusive" is the word.

[Thrud]

Stay tuned for an upcoming Garb Challenge. In the helpful spirit of the $20 garb challenge, I will be hosting a Feminized Tunic garb challenge, complete with prizes.

Did you just say feminized Tunic garb challenge? You can probably expect me to enter.


Anyways, though I couldn't make it this year due to family emergencies (fortunately, my grandfather ended up living and is recovering much better) I am disappointed to hear that the women are the ones lacking passing garb which, as a woman myself, I find that very unfortunate.

[Stellaria]

Glad to hear that you will participate! And yes, I would have to say that the female population, both fighter and noncom, were my biggest source of disappointment garb-wise.

[Kaonna McAvoy]

You mean I can't go out in a sportsbra and leggings anymore? You Nazi's! How dare you ruin such a time honored tradiation!? :sarcasm:

[Sváva The SpaceWolf]

Copied and pasted straight from facebook.

So I'm rather puzzled by gals complaining that it's hot out and they should be able to skirt (see what I did thar?) the rules to get on the field. This is what I wore on the field every day except Saturday:


Two linen-look tunics, I think rayon pants, wool leg wraps, a gambeson, and chainmaille. And yet thanks to proper hydration I have lived to tell the tale! In that particular photo I'm wearing a sports bra and bright, bright, bright neon orange thigh high socks, but my garb is legal because you can't see that stuff.

This is what I wore on the single day that I fought without my chainmaille:


This is a bra cover- up that I made out of a t-shirt I got from GoodWill:


This is a self-supporting choli I then changed the above into, which I have worn in place of a sports bra at a few battles (including a few days at Rag) with no ill effect:


This is a Bog dress that I made and can fight in that I made out of 3 or 4 yards of cheap-o muslin:

This is a sari I made out of 6 or 7 yards of cheap-o muslin, but I never tried fighting in it:


Everyone, you have a year. In fact, you have more than a year since we're moving Rag a week later in 2013. So save up those pennies and dimes and talk to Ilsa (http://www.tailoredtunics.com/) or Kevät (http://badassgarb.com/) about ordering garb. Or make some of your own, and let me know if you need help.

In addition to all of that, I'm going to try to teach a basic hand sewing class at every event I go to and the organizers will let me. The first one will be at Maethodoron's next event (https://www.facebook.com/events/290316417703731/).

Come on Dagorhirrim, you can do it. I have faith in you!

[Thrud]

Yeah, I was actually suprised because you think that woman usually like to dress up more than the guys do and are more likely to have some sewing ability or can learn how to sew easier because they do not have the social stigma that men often have to face when learning how to sew.

If any of you women need inexpensive garb, I will also be more than willing to help.

[Forkbeard Rex]

No more modern hats. Goddamn it.
fb

[Whisper Moonson]

Her nipples had to be x'd out with electrical tape because they couldn't be contained by the corset top. I consider that to be indecent-exposure bad. I might be in the minority on that one (and I'm glad to see it was addressed early in the week - mad props to you Rap for adapting as new stuff came up!) but if you can't fight or perform your duties on the field without threatening to put an eye out with your chest flopping around; it needs to be covered up.

Sounds like someone had a very poorly fitted corset, and it probably wasn't even Italian Renn or Tudor/Spanish.

I do not like the way i look in sandals, but I wore leather dress shoes the whole event. dark brown and black. would that have been considered marginal garb or just acceptable? I'll be shopping for more appropriate shoes in the future

Leather dress shoes are miles beyond sneakers, a big step above work boots, just shy of Wellingtons or chukka moccs/desert boots, and about halfway to turnshoes. In other words, you're good.

As for the feminized tunic garb challenge - YEAH! I look forward to seeing some sexy Bockstens, bias-cut adaptations, and bliauts with or without sideless surcoats.

[Raven Ghost]

Cow....boy.....hats.

[Stellaria]

Oh, and after the Feminized Tunic challenge....a HAT CHALLENGE!

Svava, I'm with you on the "WTF are you ladies bitching about" front. I heralded all day Wednesday during a heat/ozone/uv advisory in a full-length long-sleeve linen gown and heavy cotton tabard. Kept my head and neck covered and cool with a linen wimple. If I had worn less, I would've FRIED.
I always forget how much wool over linen, long sleeves, and head coverings make a difference when dealing with blazing sun. I have to force myself to put the stuff on, and then want to kick myself for not having done so sooner.

[Rap the Space Drunk]

Don't worry, cowboy hats and other conductor and straw contraptions will not be allowed on.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

Don't worry, cowboy hats and other conductor and straw contraptions will not be allowed on.

But it was fun trying to shoot them off their heads.  Along with the sunglasses...

[The Dread Pirate Tempest]

Rap and I went to WalMart and bought matching brown flip flops on Tuesday. There is nothing wrong with earth tone flip flops on the field, garb-wise.

[Rafiq's Slightly Used Camels]

Most the people I had show up to the gates in flip flops told me they were going to take them off to fight.

Shoes are also one of my last concerns on the main field because the grass is always a bit high.

[Stellaria]

Garb Challenge thread: http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php/topic,25569.0.html

[Rap the Space Drunk]

Awesome, Stell.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

No more modern hats. Goddamn it.
fb

Why were so many cadet caps allowed on the field?  I ****in' hate those things.  I dont care if they are leather and studded, they look like cadet caps.

Thrush
berserk

[Sarus]

Garb was leagues beyond last year. I didn't see any Rag t-shirts on the field, which made me happy. The big thing I noticed were shoes, hats, and underarmor, as aforementioned.

This gives me an idea: why doesn't someone open up a shop at Rag where they sell custom leather ghillies or huaraches to people without period footwear? Or better yet, sell the kits and teach people how to make their own? If you sell each one for 20-30, you'd make a tidy profit and improve the game at the same time. Could also sell simple cloth caps, like Phrygian or petasos caps that look sharp and take less than 10 minutes to make. I figure not every Dagorhirrim reads these forums, and even fewer are familiar with the garb discussions going on here, so it's worthwhile giving them a cheap alternative on site.

[hivemind]

Things I'd love to see addressed for next year:

++ All sunglasses
++ Modern print bandannas
++ All hats with a modern profile

Man, if those three things got gone, I'd be so fecking happy...

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Things I'd love to see addressed for next year:

++ All sunglasses
++ Modern print bandannas
++ All hats with a modern profile

Man, if those three things got gone, I'd be so fecking happy...

I actually don't give much of a **** about shoes...  and I have 180$ Viking boots now...  As longs as they aren't neon colored, they have never bothered me much.  But what Hivemind said...  **** YEAH!

Thrush
berserk

[Thrud]

Could also sell simple cloth caps, like Phrygian or petasos caps that look sharp and take less than 10 minutes to make. I figure not every Dagorhirrim reads these forums, and even fewer are familiar with the garb discussions going on here, so it's worthwhile giving them a cheap alternative on site.

I actually do make and sell tudor-style caps which are not only really easy to make yourself, but are also inexpensive.

I would also love to do that shoe idea, except... I don't have good cobbling skills.

[Stellaria]

I think the only thing keeping someone from offering simple shoes is coming up with accurate sizing. Trying to get shoe and hat merchants into Merchant Circle was something mentioned last year, as well.
Red Falcon carried ghillies the first year we were at Cooper's Lake, but closed them out completely by the next year :/

Also, agreeing with Hivemind COMPLETELY about the bandanas. The rest of it, too, but especially the bandanas.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Sunglasses and cadet caps bother me most of all, followed by bandanas.

Thrush
berserk

[Nichtmar]

I'd like to apologize for my outburst at the garb gates.   It seemed a little silly for a half-inch of black non-logo under-armor  collar, but what do I know.   

I totally agree everyone should look the part, but checkers were being overly critical.   My Non-Com wife was sent back to change and she was wearing earth-tone stuff she blended just fine. I always thought spectators didn't need to be garbed?   


Nichtmar's Suggested Rule:
If you look the part from 10 feet,  go fight! 

[Briar Rose]

What I don't get about bandanas is that they're just cloth...so why not choose a more appropriate cloth? Wrap some linen or cotton around your head instead if you don't want a hood. Keep a scrap from when you're making tunics.

Thrud, I'd like to know more about the caps. The ONE place Eep got burned was her scalp (bad me). One of her dresses came with a cap, but it never fit right. Haldor's little one had a cap and it was so cute.

RE: shoes, I was also very happy that the Pillaged Village had some simple Chinese shoes for sale in two different styles and various colors and fabrics. They're not for everyone, but it was definitely a start.

Stell, did Red Falcon specify that it was the sizing or was there just overall not the market desired, too? If someone sold leather and instructions per Sarus' suggestion, people could (if they were industrious enough) go back to camp and make shoes. Ljuda made her shoes for the fashion show on site (I think it was your pattern). I wouldn't cut the leather til it was sold, even, giving the merchant the ability to use it for something else if it wasn't needed. That would get past the sizing. Or offer to cut and punch the holes for an additional fee?

Garb gates and sunglasses - I heard someone ask "Are those prescription?" and the person said "yes" and that was all. What was the definition of prescription? That the person has an eye condition or is just legally blind? Either way, you could go a step further and ask the person to bring a doctor's note or for the blind bit, just ask them to take them off for a quick look. If the world looks like an M.C. Escher drawing, you know they are custom. Not that I wore mine on site this year but my sunglasses will quickly give anybody without bad vision a headache and it's a simple test that won't hold up the gates.

Nichtmar, speaking as a non-com, I disagree. I'm not sure who told you that spectators didn't need garb at Rag, but they mislead you. Ragnarok is a garbed event for all. We all pay the fee and we all attend simply by walking around the site. Even small children are in garb. If your wife wants tips on how to dress (I don't know what she was actually dressed in), she can certainly ask. We want to make it a better experience for all, and there are some simple, comfortable ways a woman can dress for a camping event. When I walked through the garb gates, I got the same once-over as any fighter and I feel that was perfectly appropriate. It's not their job to determine if I'm "just watching" and frankly, even just watching I'm still participating in the event. I suggest that she invest in some linen if her goal is comfort. It can be layered, worn solo, dressed up or down and even with long sleeves and long skirts it is very comfortable in hot weather.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Yep, the only time you are technically allowed to be out of garb at Rag is coming or going to the site from the outside world.  This has never been enforced, and now we are having to fight 26 years of bad habits.

Thrush
berserk

[Stellaria]

Nichtmar, time to get your realm informed. Ragnarok is a garbed event. If you go, you need garb. Garb is clothing that looks like it would be unobtrusive on an extra in a medieval fantasy movie. Garb is not hippy music fest gear, or a tank top and long skirt, nor is it the stuff you would wear any day with a tabard thrown over. Combatant or noncombatant, every Ragnarok participant is expected to be garbed anywhere on the grounds save within the confines of your own camp.

Briar, the shoe-sizing issue was separate from the Red Falcon closeout. I have no idea why Red Falcon stopped making shoes. All I know is that accurate sizing for shoes is why any leatherworker doesn't just sit down and whip up a bazillion ghillies. Ljuda made her shoes after sitting through a 2-hour class and making a shoe pattern from scratch from a tracing of her own foot. It's a simple process, but crafting individual patterns does take time and testing to get the fit right, which is why custom shoes made at Rag would be unfeasible.
There are several Renn Faire shoe vendors that DO have their sizing figured out, though, and it would be wonderful to get them to set up at Rag.

[Stellaria]

Know what does count as garb? A knee-length tunic.

[Olos]

Chicks in chainmail = super hot.  Just thought I'd say that.


I'm making it my main goal to get rid of my retarded looking straw hat and find a new solution.  The awesome felt hat I have from stell unfortunately overheats me rather quickly, though it was certainly nice at Olympics this year.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

I'll be selling non modern print bandanas next year on the cheap, If I have room in the van, I'll bring scraps of linen in a bin with a pair of scissors for people to make their own on the spot, this should solve the bandanna issue for good. Linen bandannas would be a hell of allot better at keeping fighters cool in the heat anyhoo.

[Rap the Space Drunk]

Hive- you're gonna like next year, then. Modern paisley bandanas are still on review. If I can get a metric ****ton of fabric scrap squares to just have on hand in a box, it can be a super smooth transition.

Nichtmar- this is a ****ty job, no bones about it. Especially when it's friends you've known for years. As pointed out above, we have 26 years of bad habits to break. Get your boys (and girls) in garb and you guys can take the field as one of the top tier units in Dag that I know you guys are.

Briar- sunglasses were to either be ANSI/OSHA specced safety glasses, transitions, or have a doctor's note. Twinkle and Nitszche are the only two people I know of who had notes and backing from the medics, everyone else was to have safety glasses. I'll get my people more on board with that standard next year.

[Siguric]

"Failing" someone's garb for a t-shirt collar showing UNDER a tunic is step 1 in turning the douchenozzle up to 11.

[hivemind]

I'd argue that we're already at 4 or 5 on that scale, the way you're measuring it. I think it's excellent.