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[Gwenaelle]

Rafiq, I understand your point and it does suck that people would lie.  I would hope that it would not be a significant number.  Again, i am not opposed to those on the field having to wear the "uniform".  I agree that should be enforced.

But the "garb gates" could be moved.  In OH, they were directly at the field.  You had to pass through them to get onto the playing field.

Also, heralds could remove people who blatantly were is disregard of the rules.

[Raven Ghost]

Civil war re-enactments are very different. Correct me if im wrong, but many spectators are not members of the reenactment and many 'battles' are open for public viewing correct?

You are very correct (or at least last time I checked). Non-spectator events were called "tacticals." All events included walk through of camps for visitors so we had everything not period. You did NOT get on the field unless you were 100% correct. I saw guys catch hell for not wearing hats because Civil War soldiers never took the field without hats.

But on the big battle days, 100s of spectators and their children came to watch. And paid to get in. Non-combatants watched from their own reserved area. They were usually in period clothes.

[Sváva The SpaceWolf]

Why are certain people so passionate about what spectators wear?
I am not being a smartass with my question, I am seriously curious to know why mundane clothes on the sidelines bother some people.
I honestly don't get it.

BECAUSE DAGORHIR DOES NOT HAVE SPECTATORS

There is no one up in the bleachers, no one off the "field of play", no one in the cushioned seats watching the plot unfold.

 You may not be fighting, but you ARE a participants, and you ARE involved in making Dagorhir a Medieval fantasy world. You entered into a social contract to conduct yourself in the manner appropriate for Dagorhir. We host a private event that you have to pay to get into that is shut off from spectators. If some one does not want to follow the rules they don't have to come and waste their vacation time and money.

You want to use the football game comparison? Think this one over, are you allowed to show up at a high school football game in a G string thong and nothing else? No, no you are not. You will get thrown out. Are you expected to show up appropriately dressed? Yes. In the same vain, I wouldn't show up to a Red Wings V Flyers game in a Steelers shirt. It would be weird, and I would get a metric ton of crap for it.

For the love of all things Holy, why can't people get in garb? Are you guys afraid that during our organized pillow fights where we play pretend we're elves and vikings killing each other you'll look a little nerdy? Or are you that determined to pee in someone else's campfire and be a sour puss because there's not a fake sword in your hand? It is clearly important enough to be the first thing the MoA covers and important enough to other Dag folk (You know, your friends) that these rules exist. Why does anyone want to spit in their collective face like that?

We not being period police, we're asking people to cover up their mundane clothes with garb that can be made in 5 minutes with some staples, a bed sheet, and rope.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

Why are certain people so passionate about what spectators wear?
...I honestly don't get it.

Yes, you don't get it.  We don't care what you wear at home, or to your local practice or battles.  But at Ragnarok it is different because it is an event where garb is required at all times when you're outside of your camp.  As others have pointed out, you agreed to that when you checked in, and the event organizers and the RWC have strongly endorsed that policy.  If you disagree so strongly, feel free to bring the issue up in your chapter for discussion - your chapter has a right to voice it's collective opinion too. 

Even spectators are participants at Ragnarok.  This is not a Renn Faire where you pay to be entertained by the people in funny clothes, or a historical reenactment open to the public for edification and/or amusement.  We are all participants, not voyeurs. 

Us being in costume creates an atmosphere, one where we can step away from being Bill and Dave and Robin and Allison, and be Gwenaelle and Kyrax, etc.

[Whisper Moonson]

If you're a participant at an event, and the ground rules for the event say you have to be in garb, then you have to be in garb if you participate in any way, including just watching. Ragnarok is such an event.

If you happen to go to an open, public event and want to watch, you can wear whatever you want. If you want to participate (fight, herald, etc.), you have to wear garb.

[Gwenaelle]

It's not personal people.
It's supposed to be a discussion.
Not trying to "piss on your wheaties" or "ruin your medieval experience".
Wow.

[Gaul]

I think we're going about this wrong.  These are people who don't want to be seen as real dorks, possibly because of confidence/masculinity issues.

Under-armor is for WIMPS.

As for garbless spectators, what are you doing at Rag if you don't have garb?  What are you doing in mundies if you have garb to wear instead?

[Siguric]

Until you start actually kicking people out of Rag for not wearing garb (which no one is ever going to ever ever do - they lack the true cajones for such a thing), it's really only a "Garb-Strongly-Encouraged-Unless-You're-Fighting-On-The-Main-Field" event and not a "Garb-Required" event.

Let's not fry bacon and call it turkey burgers, here.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

Until you start actually kicking people out of Rag for not wearing garb (which no one is ever going to ever ever do - they lack the true cajones for such a thing), it's really only a "Garb-Strongly-Encouraged-Unless-You're-Fighting-On-The-Main-Field" event and not a "Garb-Required" event.

Let's not fry bacon and call it turkey burgers, here.

I like that analogy and will add, this:
Strongly recommended throughout the event, but REQUIRED on the battlefield, even as a spectator. If you need to thumb your nose at the man, do it on the way to the bath house and see Stell blow a gasket. You wont get kicked out, but i do see a cadre' of hecklers in our future.

[Stellaria]

Knee length tunic, dammit!

[Siguric]

MOA only states crotch length.

[Kaonna McAvoy]

If I can see your hang-dang flip-flopping around i'm making it my target in every battle. Just sayin 

[Magnus]

Knee-length tunic is not period for wealthy mid-late 14th century knight! And 4th-century Greeks soldiers' chitones and exomides only come down to mid-thigh....IF that.

[Stellaria]

Knock yerself out. I'm talking about walking to the shower.

[Tooka the Gangly Goblin]

Until you start actually kicking people out of Rag for not wearing garb (which no one is ever going to ever ever do - they lack the true cajones for such a thing), it's really only a "Garb-Strongly-Encouraged-Unless-You're-Fighting-On-The-Main-Field" event and not a "Garb-Required" event.

Let's not fry bacon and call it turkey burgers, here.

I like that analogy and will add, this:
Strongly recommended throughout the event, but REQUIRED on the battlefield, even as a spectator. If you need to thumb your nose at the man, do it on the way to the bath house and see Stell blow a gasket. You wont get kicked out, but i do see a cadre' of SNIPERS in our future.

Fixed.

Silk said she needed more backs to shoot at, I think we can kill two birds with one stone, just sayin'.

[Atalan]

If someone looks like they put some genuine effort into their garb, they should pass.

Kneef... you need some modifiers to this, because I can put a lot of effort into Vietnam War era infantry garb and that should not pass at Dagorhir.

Let's try: "If someone looks like they put some genuine effort into creating a medieval or medieval fantasy persona with their garb, they should pass."

[hivemind]

Let's try: "If someone looks like they put some genuine effort into creating a medieval or medieval fantasy persona with their garb, they should pass."

Entertainingly, if that was our only garb rule, we'd essentially have the same standards as the SCA.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

But Magnus, people in StickDork need to feel like they have some power over someone.

This is why we don;t let 99% of people help with Security, they don't get that our only power is calling 911, they htink we get to be rent a cop bouncers...  We wish we had nothing to do all week, that's why we do it.  When someone comes Paul Blart goose stepping into our camp and is like "I WANNA PUNCH NERDS!!!!"  We're like... you don't get it...  gtfo.

Thrush
berserk

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

I don't see the point in denying a "tank top hippy skirt" wearing person (not only women now a days, by the way) from watching the game.  Excluding people does not build the sport (IMO).

Neither do non coms, IMO, and if they at least have good garb I can ROLE PLAY that I play a game where EVERYONE participates in what, TO ME, it's all about: combat and lookin' sexy.

Thrush
berserk

[Silk]

TO ME, it's all about: combat and lookin' sexy.
Thrush
berserk

And you're so good at both.

How's that six pack coming along, by the way? We never see you without a tunic anymore.

[Stellaria]

Let's try: "If someone looks like they put some genuine effort into creating a medieval or medieval fantasy persona with their garb, they should pass."

Entertainingly, if that was our only garb rule, we'd essentially have the same standards as the SCA.

Oh god. I know it's not like this in most places, but around here the SCA has just as much of a problem with **** garb as Dagorhir as a whole does. Our local dag population has far better Viking kit than the whole of the local SCA "Viking" house.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

TO ME, it's all about: combat and lookin' sexy.
Thrush
berserk

And you're so good at both.

How's that six pack coming along, by the way? We never see you without a tunic anymore.

Not as well as I'd like...  If I get pix i'll post...

Thrush
berserk

[Sváva The SpaceWolf]

Let's try: "If someone looks like they put some genuine effort into creating a medieval or medieval fantasy persona with their garb, they should pass."

Entertainingly, if that was our only garb rule, we'd essentially have the same standards as the SCA.

Oh god. I know it's not like this in most places, but around here the SCA has just as much of a problem with **** garb as Dagorhir as a whole does. Our local dag population has far better Viking kit than the whole of the local SCA "Viking" house.

Yeah, that's the thing, almost everyone that throws "THIS IS DAGORHIR NOT THE SCA" up as a defense for not wearing minimum passing garb has never dealt with the SCA directly. They go off of rumors about evil Laurels chasing everyone around as period police. My barony has a dude that wears jean, a white t shirt, and a crappy tabard at everyone event because he enjoys irritating people. He's kind of a douche overall However, there's really nothing anyone can do about it.

Guys, listen to me, The SCA does NOT have garb rules. It has rules about armor and fighting. The garb, in most cases, looks good because this group of adults understands the expectations that come with playing a Renaissance and Medieval game. One of those is looking the part.

Besides, having fantastic garb can help legitimize the look to our game. When it's painful obvious to everyone around you that you pour time, effort, and resources into something it indicates that thing is worth spending time, effort, and resources on.  If you look like a slob people tend to think you're not respectable.

 

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Besides, having fantastic garb can help legitimize the look to our game. When it's painful obvious to everyone around you that you pour time, effort, and resources into something it indicates that thing is worth spending time, effort, and resources on.  If you look like a slob people tend to think you're not respectable.

ding ding ding

Thrush
berserk

[Raven Ghost]

In SCA you have to be historical, right?..no elves or orcs?...I am really asking..not trolling

[Magnus]

Yes, the SCA is a history-based society. That being said, Pennsic, at least, features a number of non-historical fighters, most visibly the Tuchux, who take their inspiration from various generic elements.

[Sváva The SpaceWolf]

In SCA you have to be historical, right?..no elves or orcs?...I am really asking..not trolling

In theory, but I've seen more well done elves at Pennsic than I have ever seen at a Dag event. Remember, The Tilted Tavern folks are from the SCA. Then you have the Tuchuxs that do that fantasy barbarian thing, which is cool.

[hivemind]

In SCA you have to be historical, right?..no elves or orcs?...I am really asking..not trolling

No one's going to call you out on it, if it's well done. But the cool kids are knights. Or Vikings. And so that's what most people aspire to. The actual rules state words to the effect of: "All participants must make an attempt at pre-18th century garb." So, effectively, their "period" ends at 1699.

I might be off by a century, but you get the idea.

[Raven Ghost]

So they wouldn't chase off a Gondorian or a Haradrim?

[hivemind]

They wouldn't chase off anyone. People can (and DO) attend events in boots, jeans, and a tabard. It ain't pretty, but there's no rule against it.

But if you look like ass, and don't care, don't expect them to be terribly welcoming or friendly towards you. At least not once you've shown that you don't care to put any effort in to your garb.

[Cormac BAMC]

I think of it like this. It's a big costume party, and if you don't show up in a costume, why are you at the party? Find another party. I mean, sure, it's a free country, but what good is showing up at a costume party in no costume? It's not that we don't love you, it's that we're having fun with it and not doing it implies that you aren't having fun.

[Tater the wine maker, sword unit of K'lar]

I think of it like this. It's a big costume party, and if you don't show up in a costume, why are you at the party? Find another party. I mean, sure, it's a free country, but what good is showing up at a costume party in no costume? It's not that we don't love you, it's that we're having fun with it and not doing it implies that you aren't having fun.

this wording should be in the rag guide

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

I think of it like this. It's a big costume party, and if you don't show up in a costume, why are you at the party? Find another party. I mean, sure, it's a free country, but what good is showing up at a costume party in no costume? It's not that we don't love you, it's that we're having fun with it and not doing it implies that you aren't having fun.

Huzza!
Well said.

[Shiiva The Red]

I think of it like this. It's a big costume party, and if you don't show up in a costume, why are you at the party? Find another party. I mean, sure, it's a free country, but what good is showing up at a costume party in no costume? It's not that we don't love you, it's that we're having fun with it and not doing it implies that you aren't having fun.

Huzza!
Well said.

Agreed!

[Odran]

Until you start actually kicking people out of Rag for not wearing garb (which no one is ever going to ever ever do - they lack the true cajones for such a thing), it's really only a "Garb-Strongly-Encouraged-Unless-You're-Fighting-On-The-Main-Field" event and not a "Garb-Required" event.

Let's not fry bacon and call it turkey burgers, here.

I like that analogy and will add, this:
Strongly recommended throughout the event, but REQUIRED on the battlefield, even as a spectator. If you need to thumb your nose at the man, do it on the way to the bath house and see Stell blow a gasket. You wont get kicked out, but i do see a cadre' of hecklers in our future.

QFT. If you can be on the battlefield as a non-com without garb, then there isn't even a point of requiring garb at all at Rag. Likewise, garb can't practically be required when walking between camps and the like.

<sarcasm on>
BTW, if you really want to annoy the garb National-Socialists, I would suggest wearing an early 18th century British army uniform, and shouting "God Save the King" at everyone wearing a kilt.

[Sváva The SpaceWolf]

Svava, where did you get your sleeveless chain shirt from? Made it? Bought it? Converted it?

Oh hey buddy, missed you in the comments. My King bought it off of ebay and cut the sleeves off of the chain and cut it at the waist too. I traded for the bottom half of his chain and turned it into my Tutu of Doom^tm, then I later bought the remaining top half off of him too.

[Brennos]

It's not personal people.
It's supposed to be a discussion.
Not trying to "piss on your wheaties" or "ruin your medieval experience".
Wow.

This is a touchy subject. We (us, team Garb) want people in garb all the time because we like having an atmosphere that is a few steps removed from the 'real' world. It's pleasant, it's relaxing. I can be Brennos the Gaul and not have to worry about all the **** Frank the Minnesotan has to do when he gets home on Monday. People running around the site in normal people clothes chips away at the distance between Ragnarok and all the **** I have to do when I get home. I like that distance. It's a huge part of the reason I come out to Rag.

As many people have pointed out; There are no spectators at Rag. There are participants at Rag. You might not be participating in the fighting but you are participating in the camping, the parties, the culture, all the weirdness that makes Rag awesome. If you're not a participant then you're either one of the Coopers, or you're about to have security called on you.

I'm not here for a 'sport'. I'm hear for a LARP game. Live action role playing. The role I play is 'Brennos'. Brennos is a lot like me. But he's not quite me. I don't want to be Frank in a silly costume. I want to be Brennos, just for a little bit. Folks watching the battle might not be combatants, but they are part of the LARP. If there are spectators watching the fighting in normal clothes then I'm just some dorkass in running around in a dress. I might as well switch it out for a jersey and call it a day. But if there are peasants and squires and ladies and thengs and snaga sitting around watching the battle I can go right on being Brennos and worrying about how to take out that big Orc with the glaive instead of whether I paid my cable bill.

[Gaul]

Would it be too uncouth to assemble some kind of roving heckling squad with a barrel of mead on a cart?

Edit: offering compliments and drinks to well-garbed folks as well.

[Stellaria]

You mean like Merc's Row on Friday night, only mobile? I'm in.

[ljuda]

Why are certain people so passionate about what spectators wear?
I am not being a smartass with my question, I am seriously curious to know why mundane clothes on the sidelines bother some people.
I honestly don't get it.

When I try to tell people at the office what Dagorhir is all about and they assume that it's like a Renfair, I correct them: "No, we don't do this for spectators, we do this for ourselves." In fact, as a (non-com, because I was pregnant) participant for Rag XXI, I personally guided a couple of folks, who had wandered in, away from the fighting because they were not part of the event, had not signed waivers, and it was not right for them to be there.

That's why spectators need to wear garb - because they are participants - not spectators. My two cents.

[hivemind]

I just watched some videos.

Thrush is right: we need a complete and utter ban on all hats with a forward-facing brim. These cadet caps are f'ing ridiculous, and all of you wearing them look ridiculous.

BAN.

[Aros]

You mean like Merc's Row on Friday night, only mobile? I'm in.

I'm all for this, we can also ride around with arrows to pelt people who think we are just kidding.

[Rap the Space Drunk]

Agree on the cadet caps, lot of them were on the field. UV advisory means nothing next year.

[Gaul]

You mean like Merc's Row on Friday night, only mobile? I'm in.

I'm all for this, we can also ride around with arrows to pelt people who think we are just kidding.

I can supply several gallons of cider.  If I can't get a suitable vessel by next spring, I'll be looking for someone who has one.  I'm not going to heckle garb while drinking out of a big blue plastic jug.

[Briar Rose]

Alric sells some wonderful jugs. Whoever does this (and please offer non-alcoholic cider or other drink as well as meade, etc.) should get some from him.

Mundane clothes bother me for similar reasons as Ljuda. If I wanted to go camping in a tshirt and shorts, I would stay closer to home, maybe rent an RV, etc. Not wanting to wear garb just doesn't make sense. If your sig. other doesn't want to dress the part, why is he/she there? Find something else to do together. If you're only there to swing a sword wearing jeans, this is not really the hobby for you, either. It's like we've built this little city/society and in comes a touron. Meh.

[Gwenaelle]

It's not personal people.
It's supposed to be a discussion.
Not trying to "piss on your wheaties" or "ruin your medieval experience".
Wow.

This is a touchy subject. We (us, team Garb) want people in garb all the time because we like having an atmosphere that is a few steps removed from the 'real' world. It's pleasant, it's relaxing. I can be Brennos the Gaul and not have to worry about all the **** Frank the Minnesotan has to do when he gets home on Monday. People running around the site in normal people clothes chips away at the distance between Ragnarok and all the **** I have to do when I get home. I like that distance. It's a huge part of the reason I come out to Rag.

As many people have pointed out; There are no spectators at Rag. There are participants at Rag. You might not be participating in the fighting but you are participating in the camping, the parties, the culture, all the weirdness that makes Rag awesome. If you're not a participant then you're either one of the Coopers, or you're about to have security called on you.

I'm not here for a 'sport'. I'm hear for a LARP game. Live action role playing. The role I play is 'Brennos'. Brennos is a lot like me. But he's not quite me. I don't want to be Frank in a silly costume. I want to be Brennos, just for a little bit. Folks watching the battle might not be combatants, but they are part of the LARP. If there are spectators watching the fighting in normal clothes then I'm just some dorkass in running around in a dress. I might as well switch it out for a jersey and call it a day. But if there are peasants and squires and ladies and thengs and snaga sitting around watching the battle I can go right on being Brennos and worrying about how to take out that big Orc with the glaive instead of whether I paid my cable bill.

Thanks Brennos, that was a well put decent answer.
I can respect this feeling but I just disagree with it.  I would prefer people to dress atleast part of the role, but if they don't it's never ruined my good time.  I do my thing and move along.

If I ever had to fight someone in blue jeans (the worst thing I can think of to use as an example), my first thought would be "Why on earth would this person want to wear blue jeans?"  They are the most uncomfortable bottoms to wear to fight.  My second thought would be "I wish he wasn't wearing blue jeans."  But ultimately I would fight him and move along.  I would never think or feel he "ruined" my good time by wearing blue jeans.  It simply wouldn't bother me to that extent.  And I find it hard to understand people that would allow something so meaningless (in my eyes) to effect their good time.  If you take pride in your garb, wear good garb.  I appreciate it when I see something nice, as do others.  But to let bad garb or lack of garb determine the time you will have seems sad.

All in all I've come to a conclusion about myself during Rag and by getting back on the boards.  Something I didn't realize....I'm a stick jock.  I just want to fight.  I don't care what you are wearing.  I just want to fight.  I didn't know this about myself.  And as my husband pointed out to me it is odd because on a personal level I don't get along with most stick jocks.  But it seems on a political level I'm their ally.

So there just seems to be two camps, those who find garb dear to their heart, the end all be all and those who just are happy to see people with clothes on.

My hope would be that the two camps could find a comprimise as to not alienate the other.

[Gwenaelle]

Also, everything I hear about garb standards have to do with things being historically accurate.
I understand this for period human characters.
I myself am a French Cathar from around the 1100's.
I am working towards garbing as close as a can to what that character would wear.  It's gonna be a long process, but hopefully i will get there.
But...
I used to be a mermaid.
And there are many other fictional characters that have no historical basis.

So, I suppose my question would be how does enforcing historical human garb rules on a make believe character wash?

i.e.  As a mermaid I had a modern tank top that was greenish scale colored like.  Which would be appropriate for my character.  But under the "no tank top" rule I would not be allowed to wear it.  Even though it was perfect for my "costume".

How would this work itself out?

[Olos]

These guys aren't quite perfect on garb yet(collars, showing kneepads, and cowboy hat), but they're getting there, and I challenge you to find a group more focused on stickjock-ery.

[Ravus]

There are other games with more lax garb standars and a stronger "sport" contingent. There is no need to water down what makes dag what it is. If someone is  so opposed to garb rules (note:not not guidelines or suggestions) perhaps another game would be a better fit.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

I used to be a mermaid.
And there are many other fictional characters that have no historical basis.

So, I suppose my question would be how does enforcing historical human garb rules on a make believe character wash?

i.e.  As a mermaid I had a modern tank top that was greenish scale colored like.  Which would be appropriate for my character.  But under the "no tank top" rule I would not be allowed to wear it.  Even though it was perfect for my "costume".

How would this work itself out?

Your mermaid, or someone else' ancient Klingon character would have to fit within the general Dark Age/Medieval/Fantasy Literature genres and periods that Dagorhir sources from. 

So no, the silly tank top isn't perfect as a costume, it's uninformed or lazy.  The only thing appropriate about it could have been the color. 

We get it, you don't really agree with the garb requirements.  That's your opinion, and you've a right to hold it.  But as a group we've all, through our chapter reps at War Council, voted overwhelmingly in the other direction.

Garb isn't an end all and be all, there's a lot of other things that come together to make Dagorhir what it is.  But this is a discussion of Garb and how Garb Gates worked this year, so of course the focus will be on that topic.  As for a compromise - I feel that our current rules are based on that compromise, with a fairly low bar to attain to meet the requirements.  Further, any event host is welcome to apply the garb rules just on the field or at the event in general based on how they choose.  Ragnarok clearly chooses to apply the rules to all participants at the event, even those not swinging a weapon.