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[mac]

My first question regarding this is why the **** do I have to go to a stupid archery class every rag just so I can pick a bow up? In 6 years not a damn rule has been added except a few dimension rules on arrow construction which is not even covered in the class. I think it is necessary for new people but it is kind of ridiculous that I have to waste my time going to the same class every year for no reason. Can we please come up with a way to make it so I dont have to do this every year, some kind of card or something that states I know all the rules and that I dont have to qualify until a rule is changed. I am not some special flower here I am sure that there are plenty of people that are sick of having to go to the same class every year at only one event like for some reason I forgot the archery rules in the time between gates of fire and rag. If however I am the only person thinking this to be stupid than by all means let me know and I will shut up. As stated I believe an archery class for beginners to be a brilliant and needed thing. Its just for me to have to do it every year when no changes have been made is  a waste of mine and your time.

The next question I have is: why in the hell do we have a archery class but no red class for beginners. In my opinion archery is proven to be way safer than red in all aspects of this game, except potential danger and lets face it I would rather face potential danger than proven danger any day. I just find it counterproductive to spend all this energy on an archery class to make sure people are safe from archery and have no time spent on trying to make people aware what not to do with an 8 foot weapon. Especially when in my 6 years I have seen no evidence of arrows being anything but safe and have seen so much evidence of reds being dangerous. I know that silk is the go to person for archery safety and spends alot of time and effort making sure people know and abide by all the archery rules and common sense rules that arent stated in the moa I think it is time we find a go to red person for the same thing, I dont know who that person is but im sure there a few out there who could do the job.

[Stellaria]

Very good points, both of them.

[Disirregardlessly hivemind]

Agreed, on both counts. I think once you've taken it once, there's no need to take it again unless a rule has changed.

[Varadin]

im all for making an authorization standard for all weapons styles.

[Devaryn]

Totally agree, and this would go perfectly with the idea I'm spearheading for next year with authorization to become a RWC-licensed weapon checker.  Once you take the test, it remains in effect until a rule changes, and it would be a huge benefit to have an ever-growing pool of authorized people to draw from for help.  It just makes sense to me that a brand new person SHOULD go to a class to learn how to use a weapon...

All of this smacks of increased nationalization with RWC being the central point of focus.  I'm all for it, but I'm not sure how well it'll go over with certain other groups.

[Inextirpable Kyrax]

While I kinda agree with both points, this is silly v.v.

im all for making an authorization standard for all weapons styles.

Sorry, this isn't Pentwyvern and Ragnarok is too big and there are too many people and weapons styles.  It would be a logistical nightmare.  If you had to test every Ragnarok, like the archery system, someone who multi-classed would spend all week certifying.  If it were an ongoing system of certification, someone would have to maintain the records, etc.

A further concern would be that if we extend a certification system across weapons styles, we are by extension implying that the "authorized" person is safe to use that equipment. 

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

kyrax i was about to say something similar but you beat me to it

[Devaryn]

I disagree with the counterpoint that Ragnarok is too big to do this.  The SCA does it.  But otherwise, yes, weapon-use authorization would be hard to do.

That's why I'm more interested in just doing a weapon-check authorization to start out.  Baby steps.

[Disirregardlessly hivemind]

I disagree with the counterpoint that Ragnarok is too big to do this.  The SCA does it. 

Actually, the SCA requires that you be authorized in the weapon styles you want to fight with BEFORE you go to war. There are no authorizations at war.

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

And hivemind - what does authorization require? Just curious here.

[Syr Olaf]

Mac.....One year we did have a red class on a wed because people were being dumbasses how to use a red

Dev.... Laithe and others tried to start a weapons check guild to gain consistency through training. Big uproar started. I mean how dare he try to help out and train others make weapons check better. Now I cant imagine making some one or a group in charge, Authorizing and make people take test to check weapons. Damn Kids in their radical ideas

[Tater the wine maker, sword unit of K'lar]

how long is this archery class? Am I correct that you only need to take it once during rag?

[Whisper Moonson]

And hivemind - what does authorization require? Just curious here.

It varies from kingdom to kingdom, but you pretty much have to demonstrate to a senior marshal (their equivalent of our heralds) that you know the rules and you know how to use the weapon safely. Some places, it's a rubber stamp process. Other places, you need to KNOW the rules and demonstrate some real control even when pressed hard. Guess which one I favor.

how long is this archery class? Am I correct that you only need to take it once during rag?

It's about 1/2 hour, and you only need to take it once. It's offered daily, just before weapons check closes.

The only problem I see with allowing experienced fighters to opt out of the archery class (or red class, should one be introduced) is this: you still have to get the wrist band from the class leader, so what verifiable credentials could you present in order to opt out of the class? Short of coming up with an entire authorization system with cards and everything (not that I'm strongly opposed to such), I'm not sure how it'd work. To me, it's a hassle, but it's worth a sacrifice of 1/2 hour one morning at Rag to be sure that everyone else with a bow has at least heard the rules recently, even if I can already recite them by memory. It's that, or rely on an authorization system that'll be too haphazard in its enforcement to really be useful at Rag.

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

Mac.....One year we did have a red class on a wed because people were being dumbasses how to use a red

That was a funny day.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

Silk wrote all our names down with our Rag tags, I wonder if she could just bring the list with her to next Rag and just hand us our archer bands without us going to class. She could just do an abridged version to let us know if there are any changes to the rules, or how they are interpreted. Silk is so damn knowledgeable that she was able to tell people what the difference is from their realm and Rag interpretations.

[Stellaria]

Silk *could*.....but oh man, the headache. She would need minions for this.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

Silk *could*.....but oh man, the headache. She would need minions for this.

I'm pretty good at recruiting minions.

Weapons check certification was one of the ideas I had for last year that didn't pan out. I have some new ideas for next year on this. One is to commission belt favors from Kevat for people who I deem certifiable. And by 'I', I mean the head weapons checker for Rag, the certification going forward would be by the Rag head weapons checker, whomever that may be. The current idea is that a person wanting certification would stand a post with each Head checker, Olaf, Laith, Varadin, Viccar, Silk, each would have a token or something to give the person certifying that person had satisfied their tutelage. When a prospect gathered all of them, I would present them with a belt flag showing that they are a  certified weapons checker. I would hope this system would keep favoritism down as each prospect would have to satisfy multiple checkers from multiple realms.

[Disirregardlessly hivemind]

And hivemind - what does authorization require? Just curious here.

It varies from kingdom to kingdom, but you pretty much have to demonstrate to a senior marshal (their equivalent of our heralds) that you know the rules and you know how to use the weapon safely. Some places, it's a rubber stamp process. Other places, you need to KNOW the rules and demonstrate some real control even when pressed hard. Guess which one I favor.

Around here, you have to demonstrate that you can use your weapons safely; show that you can launch safe attacks, and defend yourself when pressed.

[Dust & Bones]

Silk didnt give it once a day. On the days i was at armor check i saw her giving it up to a half dozen times out of the goodness of her heart for the jerks who couldnt schlep themselves to class on time.

I'd like to see everyone from this ragnarok be waived of testing next rag, maybe even the next two rags.

[Magnus]

And hivemind - what does authorization require? Just curious here.

It varies from kingdom to kingdom, but you pretty much have to demonstrate to a senior marshal (their equivalent of our heralds) that you know the rules and you know how to use the weapon safely. Some places, it's a rubber stamp process. Other places, you need to KNOW the rules and demonstrate some real control even when pressed hard. Guess which one I favor.

Around here, you have to demonstrate that you can use your weapons safely; show that you can launch safe attacks, and defend yourself when pressed.

Also that you know the legal strike zones, know what qualifies as a hit, and that when you die you can do so in a safe manner.

Though sometimes you don't have to formally authorize; I authorized by just fighting at practice and then Icefalcon came up to me afterwards and said "find me next weekend and I'll sign your form, you're good to go."

[Disirregardlessly hivemind]

Though sometimes you don't have to formally authorize; I authorized by just fighting at practice and then Icefalcon came up to me afterwards and said "find me next weekend and I'll sign your form, you're good to go."

That's essentially what I keep getting, then no one has the damned correct forms.

[mac]

I dont know what the solution is im just an idea guy willing to help with the solution when someone comes up with one. I just think a class for red users would be beneficial to everyone on the field. Very simple class with someone who has used red a lot and can let people know some very basic common sense thing that may not be in the moa but still should be adhered to on the field. Like a shield breaking hit is just that a hit in which you use a lot more force than you would on someones knee. Straight downward swings are useless for anything but hitting people in the head and that a 45 degree swing is just as effective but way less dangerous. When coming up on someones back while they are engaged you dont need to hit them like you would while trying to fell a tree. When you get tired from swinging your red take a break because you get sloppy with something that long and heavy after a while. There are certain battles that using a red is just not worth it, such battles being when you find yourself only being able to throw straight downward shots go pick something else up. I am sure there are more knowledgeable people on using a red safely out there with more ideas on what should be taught but those are the ones I try to abide by when using an eight foot weapon that in my opinion is the most dangerous weapon on the field and has in our history caused the most injuries.

The weapon check cert is a good idea but I find people knowing how to check a weapon to be totally different than knowing how to safely use said weapon on a field. That is what I would like this topic to be about teaching people how to properly use weapons on the field in ways that are less likely to injure people, I fought for 2 days this rag and got hit in the head so many times by reds using downward swings that I thought it is a big enough issue that it needs to be addressed by someone with more knowledge on the subject than me. I thought a class was the best suggestion but maybe something else will work.

[Cancer]

you get sloppy with something that long and heavy after a while.

I have that problem.

On-topic, I think any kind of authorization past archery is going to be too cumbersome for Ragnarok. Personally, I would be in favor of an SCA-style auth requirement at the local level, something I enforce a version of when training new fighters. That said, a lot of areas in Dagorhir lack the...respect for hierarchical authority necessary for such a system to work and beyond that, the logistics start to get problematic when we get down to the smaller, newer groups. I think it's something to work toward, but much like Blackhawk's goal for consistent weapons check standards across the sport, it's not going to happen in a year.

[Varadin]

While I kinda agree with both points, this is silly v.v.

im all for making an authorization standard for all weapons styles.

Sorry, this isn't Pentwyvern and Ragnarok is too big and there are too many people and weapons styles.  It would be a logistical nightmare.  If you had to test every Ragnarok, like the archery system, someone who multi-classed would spend all week certifying.  If it were an ongoing system of certification, someone would have to maintain the records, etc.

A further concern would be that if we extend a certification system across weapons styles, we are by extension implying that the "authorized" person is safe to use that equipment.

wait wait? your telling me...that Rag is too big. man ill go tell the SCA that they must doing it wrong.

Im not talking about testing **** at Rag, im talking about making a standard test to make sure people are safe with weapons styles before we allow it on national fields.

Your right, without some type of actual system for registered dag fighters, and a form of record keeping this would be almost impossible. It be nice if we as an orginization could set that up. Its a long way off, but I do believe its the right path to take. First I think we should start with an archery auth and keep that that on record, set up a national position that is responsible for it, keep your legal name, persona name, the date you auth in at and where, and put in a system that if you dont attend x events in such a time it lapses.

Yes im asking people to be responsible and someone to step up. I gladly would do this but Im sure someone much less.... arguementative would be a better suit for a national position.

If this doesn't happen within the next ten years ill be suprised honestly. I feel we are well on the path to it we just need some form of structure for it.

[Magnus]

Varadin, I definitely agree in principle with your point. In \\Structure\\Content\\Brand%20Resource%20Center\\Content\\Home{{Tab%3AView}}]the other game I play, players have to be registered with their group and the national body in order to be allowed onto the field, for all kinds of reasons (insurance, record-keeping, and many more) and people do it. It makes sense. It would make sense in Dagorhir, but I really do not believe that Dagorhir, as it is currently organized and given the level of effort the average participants puts into it, would be able to implement such a system.

Consider the following:

1 - There are far too heralds at Ragnarok. Fighting units (you know which ones) show up with 20-30 fighters and provide no heralds, and we don't really do or say anything about it. Dagorhir needs to enforce its own rules for running Ragnarok fighting before we introduce new ones.

2 - Dagorhir chapters are subject to barely any supervision from DBGA, Inc. (a/k/a Aratari) Even the current contract was, apparently, too strict for some people. In my view, Dagorhir chapters--including Aratari--wouldn't react well to an imposition of such a formalized structure dictating who can and cannot fight.

3 - A system like this would take a lot of resources, both on the part of the larger organization and the individual chapters. It would require a lot of effort to certify people from EVERY chapter to administer fighter authorization tests, and a lot more effort to get fighters to show up and authorize. Dagorhir is a low-effort game, and while there are people who do put a lot of effort into it, very little effort is required to get involved (see: $20 garb contest!).

If we did implement a system like this, the organization would become smaller. That being said, the garb gates this year--and the fact that, in my opinion at least, they didn't cause very many people to decide not to fight--suggests that if we gradually (VERY gradually) raise the standards for Ragnarok, and by extension Dagorhir, then we may indeed be able to have a system that ensures people know what they're doing when they pick up a foam sword and hit the field. Assuming such a system is required, that is.

[Silk]

Having a "good to go" for people that have taken the class from one year to the next would make my life easier, most certainly. However, I would prefer that there were some kind of written test. Online even would be nice. It's not like a person couldn't have the rules in front of them. The point of the test is to know that they have read and understand the rules. Where a class requirement doesn't test that at all. So even if they had the rules in front of them, they would have to read them to find the answers.

That way people could do the test, bring their printed certificate or whatever and I could hand them their band. They would still have to do this each year, but it could be done well in advance and would save a lot of time. I would only have to remind them of a few things, mark their tag number and give them a band.

We would still have to have an option for people who didn't do it online though.

[Tannhäuser.]

Mac,

When the archery class was first implemented (about 8 years ago) it was because archery was a proven risk - MANY hospitalizations occurred from arrow-related battlefield injuries.  The class has worked, turning archery into a 'potential problem' now instead of a proven one.  Our archery instructors have done a fantastic job.

Archery instructors,

The last few years I was head herald, I had the Monday archery class go a slightly different way.  There were two instructors - one 'normal instructor' who gave the 1/2 hour safety class to all new people.  Veterans (2+ ragnaroks of archery qualification) could go with another instructor Monday to get reminded of updates to the archery rules, go over danger areas with the castle or unique scenarios for that year, talk about any bad habits they've seen in their realms, and get their wristbands.  Took about 10 minutes, nobody was grumpy afterwards.  Is it possible to do things this way again on Monday?  Veteran archers who arrive later in the week could assist in teaching that day's class maybe, or just get a short 'heads-up' from the instructor and their wristband?

[Dominick Stoneskull]

I am now noncom because of brain damage sustained when a reckless red user tried to reach over me and break the shield of the guy behind me with a downward swing at Rag XXVI. Brought both of his fists straight down on my head. (I had sustained other concussions previous to that one, to be fair.)

If someone experienced with reds wants to run a red safety class, I am more than willing to help out in any way you need.