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[Stellaria]

OK, we have our Newbie order of Operations, but it is geared toward fighters. Non-fighters that are new to the game and culture of Dagorhir, as well as longtime fighters that are new to the noncom scene, could probably use some direction as well.

What advice do our game's noncoms and semi-coms have for these newcomers? What are the important things to focus on?

This will probably end up being a "words of wisdom" (not Wisdom - he's not a noncom!) write-up rather than an order of operations, but I'd like to keep that helpful tone throughout, please

[Echo Woodsong]

I've been a noncom for coming up on six years now. I've never fought, never will, but have still managed to have a very enjoyable time during all of my time in Dagorhir. I've met some amazing people and like to think that some people may say that about me as well.

Know your place.

Yeah, you may have been around for a longer than some people, but it is completely different experience on and off the field. I may know the rules (even better than some of our new guys) but I don't butt in during conversations about the rules because it's not my place. I may be wrong about certain things, and I've found that a lot of people will just tune out the person talking about things they don't know about or don't have any experience about. I don't talk about how to make garb or armor because I have no idea. I will talk about what to expect at events, because that I actually do have knowledge about.

Find your niche. You like to sew? Sew for your unit! Sew on the sidelines while everybody is fighting so you aren't bored. Cook your camp really good meals everyday. Be a herald (though check with your Head Herald to see if they are okay with noncoms as heralds. Some may only want you to be a sideline or rez point herald. If that's the case, be okay with that! It is still helping out. I love being a rez point herald. I cheer on 'my' team and bring their spirits up. It's fun!) Be a water herald. Take pictures! Basically, do something.

Understand that a lot of time, the fighters will just want to talk about fighting. They won't care that you may have in interest or knowledgeable what they're talking about. You can't control other people, or stop them from doing what they enjoy at events geared towards what they are talking about. If you're bored, leave. Don't nag or try to change the subject into something you want to talk about. Ask questions if you want to educate yourself.

Be fun. Don't be annoying.

[Fayne Erving]

My wife is a non com. Never fought, never will sorta thing. She's taken to making pieces and designing garb. She isn't a seamstress, but she likes to draw, so she helps design weapons, shields, standards, garb, character backstories, etc. As a non com she's done two things that are completely and 100% indespensible-

-She takes pictures any time we are fighting or anytime we are all in full garb doing an RP event

-She helps inspire and improve people's characters.

Both of these, I see, are directly involved in the fighting culture of Dag without actually fighting. She doesn't sit on the sidelines with a camera, she's out in the field with a yellow tabbard getting closeups of people making derp faces when they're hit. She helps people get their characters developed and encourages them to be in character better or more, (of course if they are into that sort of thing. She doesn't try it with stick jocks or people who don't care about their characters of course) and encourages the less able actors when they are feeling shy.

It took her a while to find her niche as a non com, but now that we have a good unit and good characters, she arguably does more for the Order than I do!

[Stellaria]

I like what I'm seeing so far, and am looking forward to hearing from more people. Thanks, guys!

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

Pick up a weapon and fight, you contribute nothing to the game. No one cares how you cook or sew garb, or take pictures or herald or run classes, or help with various checks because you used to be a fighter but now you can't fight or how you bring water to the fighters on the field. You contribute nothing if you don't fight.

?

[Lady Krystal]

Echo said what I was going to say - verbatim! xD Finding your niche in the game makes it so you can not only contribute to the group but enjoy contributing to the group.

When I was pregnant and couldn't fight, I did everything I could to help out around the field. I helped pick up after battle/practice was over, I helped new folks sign waivers.. that sort of thing.

One of the biggest helps that non-coms can be, from a fighters perspective, is the face of the practice/group. Sure, everyone on the field is awesome and I'm sure there are plenty of big names to be found out there.. but are they going to want to break out of the big battle going on to talk to some curious bystander who's wandered up to the practice site? Of course not. They're going to want to keep fighting. Nothing sucks worse than getting called off the field because Joe Newb showed up and needs a waiver - especially if you've got 5-10 people on the sidelines already.

Non-coms can be some of the best publicists for realms and units, because they can give play-by-play to the people walking up and asking questions. They can go over the basics while explaining what Dagorhir is - and when water breaks come.. they can point people towards the fighters to get a run-down on rules, weapons, and the like (if they're not comfortable doing this themselves).

[Rafiq's Slightly Used Camels]

I think the advice I have for non-coms (coming from a fighter who's lady is a non-com and ends up kind of bored at smaller events), is to congregate! Set up an area to hang out and bring different projects to work on or whatever you like to do at events if you don't feel like watching the fighting. Even if your area is just "this camp from noon-4" or whatever it might encourage those girlfriends and wives who go along but don't really do much to get out and meet people and have some fun.

[Swordbrother Haldor]

Couldn't be bothered to read through all these posts, but here's my advice.

Do research. Just like fighters that want a specific look for their garb, equipment, armor etc. need to research their theme (be it historical or fantasy), non-coms should research what interests them and come up with projects and activities that suite their persona. If you're a viking, look into tablet weaving, naalbinding, and all the handycrafts that make your kit and your camp look that much better. Many of these are also things you can do at camp in your free time. If you are fantasy, there is probably some kind of information on the culture of your chosen race and there are probably real world crafts that fit into it. So, do your research. You can make the experience more rewarding by making your experience as all-encompassing as possible.

[Cassius]

Be fun. Don't be annoying.

Probably the 5 most important words in this thread.

[Olos]

If taking pictures is your thing, fighters will love you for it.  We tend to be pretty vain.

But really, any sort of actually helping out, in whatever way, is all it takes to make a worthwhile noncom.  And no, being there and gracing us with your presence does not count as helping out.

[athelas]

Make yourself part of the culture of Dagorhir. Learn the game (even if you don't fight it). Our Stewards are all required to know and quote the MOA.
As has been said above, find your niche. Do what you enjoy that will add to the experience for everyone. Cook, decorate camp, sew, make armor, make weapons, volunteer for EVERYTHING (troll, medic, security).
The ambassador idea is also a good one. Be there to explain what we are doing to the passers-by. Grow the game.
Make sure that YOU have fun, too, but make sure to contribute in some way.

[Milo Baines]

Cook

This. You'll make a more memorable impression on the fighters than anyone they killed or died by that day.

Pretend you're a camp follower traipsing around after a nobles army while on the warpath. You make your money (i.e. fun/rep) by serving the needs of the soldiers. Cooking, cleaning, sharpening weapons and fixing armor or clothes, making sure the camp is as awesome as it can be. If you really want to do something cool make a battle flag and carry it to the field for your unit, or even better learn to pipe or drum and play them onto the field. I garuntee you'd make mucho cool points for yourself and your unit/realm by starting a trend of battle musicians.

More than that however you should just have fun. It's a camp out in costume, you don't HAVE to do anything aside from just be there enjoying the ambiance and friendly peoples...

[athelas]

And, PLEASE wear garb. Decent, passable garb. Don't give non-coms a bad name by showing up dressed incorrectly.

[Milo Baines]

And, PLEASE wear garb. Decent, passable garb. Don't give non-coms a bad name by showing up dressed incorrectly.

Shouldn't that be a given though? I know it's not, but shouldn't it be...

[hivemind]

My wife's also a non-com. We had, I think, eight non-coms in camp at Rag this year, out of a total of 33 in camp. We value our non-coms highly. They are the ones who do most of the cooking, the camp cleaning, the laundry, the shopping, the meal planning, the party planning... basically all the fighters have to do is show up and fight, because our non-coms have taken care of most everything else. Some of them sew, some do some leatherwork, and some just have good organizational skills.

This year, we did two things to make our non-coms feel more included. First, we established an official place in the Legion for them. They're now our Coven of Succubi. They all got masks to match the rest of the unit, and they have their own distinct belt flags of white linen with a black and pink iron cross on it. Every Ragnarok they attend, they get a chevron on their flag. It's not really rank, as such, but it helps establish their place in the pecking order, both amongst themselves and with the fighters.

Second, we made sure they had valuable, meaningful tasks to accomplish. Our Thursday night Soiree was all them. The menu planning was all them. Lots of logistical and operational things got delegated to them. This gave them something to do during the days, and a sense of purpose and belonging.

There are a few things, though, that Echo mentioned above that also are important. Non-coms should know their place, and not try and act authoritative in discussions of combat, weapons or tactics. They should be helpful and useful, failing that they should be unobtrusive and quiet. And above all: NO DRAMA.

Basically, we need them to "drink the Kool-aid", to want to be a part of the unit, as opposed to just someone's accessory or ****-pillow. There's a lot they can do without fighting, but they have to want to.

[athelas]

basically all the fighters have to do is show up and fight

This is what I have always told our Stewards. We do everything else so that the fighters get to just show up and fight.

[Silk]

While I've never like the idea that non-coms were there to serve fighters and that was that, I understand Hivemind's point of view. Someone who doesn't fight, especially if they never have and isn't qualified to at least herald, shouldn't be trying to be authoritative in matters involving combat. Dagorhir isn't just a place to come and hang out in funny clothes either, and if you're not adding anything to your group, the least that you can do is be unobtrusive and undemanding.

[Varadin]

I will say this is something that makes for awesome non coms.

Knowing when to let a Fighter get back on the field. Don't be afraid to cut conversations short or to just fill them in later. When you see that fighter itching to fight, please don't distract them. This can be bad at practice, and can slow down practice a lot. On the field at events it can easily get bad as well.

Im not saying don't talk, im saying don't make water breaks longer by keeping fighters off the field, fighters are simple people and are easily disracted by shiney things and attractive things.

Aside from that, Help out at the parts of events that are always forgotten about, help at security, medics and troll. Heralding as res heralds are fine, Stay out of heralding combat even if you know the rules. The difference in knowing the rules and knowing the rules as the are applied at combat speed gets messy. (if you want i can expand on this later).

No matter what you do though, have fun and help your people out.

[Tooka the Gangly Goblin]

No matter what you do though, have fun and help your people out.

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

Mind getting back on topic guys?


Or I can split this off and you can have at each other.

[Stellaria]

I think I'll be running with the "Welcome to Dagorhir, where there are no spectators. If you are here, you are in the game" angle. Then a list of points for consideration for ways to maximize enjoyment of and participation in said game.

Continue please I am enjoying the varied viewpoints.

[Stellaria]

A split-off would be appreciated

[Tooka the Gangly Goblin]

Is there any advice I should give my sister, who is intending to go to an event with me for a day to take pictures and support her big brother? She'll probably be blanket-bunnying hardcore, since she's only fought about 2 months, 5 years ago when I was in a highschool foam fighting group. I'm not going to make her "contribute" to the event, or herald. She's paying her fee, getting herself up there, and taking pictures which will undoubtedly end up on the forums for this event.

Should she just not come if she can't offer anything more than blanket-bunny status and spectating?

[Silk]

If she wants to be there and doesn't plan on being disruptive, then of course she should go!

Besides, if she wants to take photos that can only be good for your group!

[hivemind]

Most of my advice revolves around camping trips. Our non-coms don't generally bother with day events.

However, if they did, taking pictures would be a fine thing for them to do. If they want to contribute more, rez point heralding is easy. They can provide water. They can do outreach to other spectators.

Or they can just sit in a chair and stay outta the way. That's fine too.

[Syre Jari Kafghan the Dark Knight]

outreach to other spectators would be so amazing that I have no words for it.

[Dominick Stoneskull]

I'm of the opinion that if she  (or any noncom) is there to appreciate what Dag involves, and makes an effort to participate in the experience (by wearing minimum garb), she should be more than welcome. Noncoms shouldn't be expected to run camp, or repair garb, or take photos as a justification for their presence there. Now, if that's the niche they find themselves in, and they're happy with that, more power to 'em, because that really helps everyone out. But there's more to the Dagorhir experience than combat.

I'd advise a new noncom not to be afraid to try to bring in and develop non combat events and activities they enjoy. The hafla, the trading post, the fashion show, and the arts and sciences are all non combatant activities, but they enrich the Dagorhir experience for everyone.

[athelas]

Even fighters should contribute to the game as a whole. Please do not show up at ANY event and expect everyone else to do everything for you. Contribute, enjoy and add to the game for everyone.

[Maker Magpie]

I used to be a full-time fighter, but I've been becoming more and more of a non-com recently. I put in an hour or two of fighting most events (two or three hours at Rag this year), but I'm spending increasingly more of it doing other things. Rather than giving advice, I feel it may be helpful to list different things that I've done as a noncombatant (and I'd love to hear examples from others). At events lately, I have:

Volunteered to help with weapons check, heralding, etc. Provided a large amount of iced sun tea under a tent for fighters taking breaks in almost 100 degree weather. Taught new-ish people how to make chainmaille. Debated symbolism in the norse creation story as well as the potential interpretation of ragnarok as a cyclical occurrence related to the changing of the seasons. I've also spent hours at the barbarian trading post. At most events I merchant jewelry and brooches, and spend much of that time behind my table hammering on my jewelry anvil or making chainmaille. I also watched and participated in a garb contest. I've taken newer fighters under my wing and made a point of showing them the ropes and introducing them to people. I also meet other merchants and noncombatants and discuss things with them. Mirka is a noncombatant as well, and she spends much of her time spinning, weaving, tablet weaving, knitting, and (along with me) trying to learn naalbinding. She also plays music and helps merchant with me. We also will not leave our tent without being in the best garb we can manage.

I don't cook, I don't make things for my unit (I don't really have a unit), and I don't teach classes for groups of people, and I don't take photos, but I do feel fully involved in the event. I'm not there to serve anyone.

We are both looking for ways to encourage other noncoms into becoming a fully integrated part of the community. Fighting isn't the only way to have a satisfying event.

[athelas]

I officially love Magpie.

[Stellaria]

The way I see it, noncoms only need to be as "useful" as the people around them need them to be. The irritation toward non-fighters only happens when they do something that stands out negatively - not following garb conventions, causing drama within or outside of the unit, sitting and watching camp members do camp chores around them, mooching, etc.
When a non-fighter stands out as a disruption, that is what causes the fighting population and the volunteer-minded noncom population to question the place of such non-fighters within the culture of our game.

[athelas]

All that could also be said about fighters...

You bring drama and ugliness into my camp and you are no longer welcome. I do not care if you fight or do not fight.
Do NOT ruin my happy.

[athelas]

Totally not nice, but going to say it anyway:
If a non-com misbehaves or causes drama... it makes all non-coms look bad.
If a fighter cheats, cheeses or causes drama it only make him and his unit look bad.
Double standard much?

[Stellaria]

All that could also be said about fighters...

You bring drama and ugliness into my camp and you are no longer welcome. I do not care if you fight or do not fight.
Do NOT ruin my happy.

Very good point! Those qualities are not appreciated in ANY participant of Dagorhir.....which further emphasizes the "no spectators; all are players" viewpoint.

[athelas]

Damn, girl, you do realize that you just agreed with me for a second time. We must have cocktails at the next event to commemorate this
Miss you!

[Stellaria]

Lol! You may also have the unparalleled pleasure of meeting my own resident Ginger of Awesomeness. I hope that you may teach her many things.

[hivemind]

Totally not nice, but going to say it anyway:
If a non-com misbehaves or causes drama... it makes all non-coms look bad.
If a fighter cheats, cheeses or causes drama it only make him and his unit look bad.
Double standard much?

Fighters are the raison d'etre for Dagorhir. It's a fighting game, not a re-enactment game, or a costuming game, or a camping game.

Like it or not, Dagorhir is about the fighters. *shrug*

[athelas]

After the amazing things that your non-coms do, I am surprised that you would say that.
Want to go back 30 years and show up with just a yard pimple, no first aid kit and no food.
Go for it. I thought we progressed way past that years ago.

[Stellaria]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Hivemind as well. It may be a double-standard, but it is a double-standard with some merit. The game *would* happen without noncoms around (though it might not be as easygoing or enjoyable,) but it could not exist without the fighters.

[hivemind]

We did our first couple years, including Ragnarok, with no non-coms whatsoever. We had a great time.

However, we have a better time with our wimmins along. I love having them in camp, and I love everything they do.

But they're not necessary for the playing of the game of Dagorhir.

[Stellaria]

HOWEVER, I don't think this is actually an argument that any of us can seriously get involved in. We all know that none of Hivemind's guys sit on their butts and do nothing but drink, eat, and swing a stick all week, just like we know that any noncom associated with Athelas is never going to be someone that is a liability to their unit. Those with the strongest opinions on the subject are the ones that put in a lot of effort to further the aspects of the game that they find enjoyable.

[athelas]

I love you!

[hivemind]

I would be just as much in the face of one of my fighters who was not pulling his weight in camp as I would be a non-com that was not pulling hers.

Maybe more...

[athelas]

Hivemind, you have amazing non-coms. Keep them coming. Loved having you guys on the hill with us.

[hivemind]

Best thing we ever did was start bringing all of them. I can't wait to see what they do with the feast at Clash of Kings this year...

[Maker Magpie]

We did our first couple years, including Ragnarok, with no non-coms whatsoever. We had a great time.

However, we have a better time with our wimmins along. I love having them in camp, and I love everything they do.

Hi. Several times now -- not just here -- your statements have given me the impression that you consider all non-coms to be women. Stop that.

[hivemind]

Hi. All my non-coms are women, so I refer to them like that.

[Stellaria]

I do, too, as ours are too. Athelas won't, as she keeps a Ketch in camp, and several other camps have guys that are done with their fighting days as well.

Just as we generally refer to collective fighters as male, we generally refer to collective noncoms as female, because that is where the majorities lie. It's not sexist. That is the numbers in the game.

[hivemind]

Guys who are no longer fighting are not "non-coms" to me, they're retired fighters (like Blackhawk).

When I say "non-com" I don't mean someone who only fights a little, or used to fight but now doesn't, or can't fight due to injury. I mean someone who has never taken the field at an event, and never wants to.

In my unit, those are all females. My fighters are not necessarily all male, but my non-coms are definitely all female.

[Siguric]

I have a feeling that if for some reason Hivemind were to let a male non-com into the Legion, he'd still refer to the non-com as a woman.