Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[GreybeardAbbot]

I would like to propose a "What if" discussion on the issue of the sacred cow-- "minimum garb". It's going to sound like I'm arguing for no-rules... and I kinda am... but not because I really want that. It's just that I want a better reason for what I do want. Something better than... "That's the way I like it."

No hidden agenda here, pro or con... I know this is HOT BUTTON for some of you. what I really want to know what is so important about wearing or NOT wearing garb? What is the real issue?

Many of you know me as Greybeard The Abbot of Aethenu, who in mundain life is also a Lutheran pastor. In the church we have a similar Hot button issue we call worship wars. With similar insistance on following the rules and traditions reguarding what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, rites and practices including minimum garb requirements.

So I ask what would change about Dagorhir IF--- IF--- there where NO Minimum Garb requirements? Would the Game "Grow?" Would it appeal to people who it curently does not appeal to because of the sigma of "dress-up"? And if the Game did grow in numbers, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Should that even be the goal? To Grow the popularity of the game? I hate to compare to "mission and out-reach" but isn't there a componant of that in any sport/game? That the goal is to involve people in the game and grow the popularity of the sport? Or SHOULD it be exclusive to select group of players?

Is the game of Dagorhir "essentually" a game of dress-up? (Not intending to be pajorative, because I do appreciate good garb.) Isn't the fantasy aspect the TRUE reason the game exists... or is the ACTUAL COMBAT the essential componant. And if it is... what difference does it make what someone wares?

Yes this is the battle between the stick-jocks and the fantasy freaks... and perhaps the game is not DAGORHIR with out both???

Maybe Garb is equivolent to a uniform? Most sports have a standardised uniform... with very little allowance for expressions of individuality... But the Church folk would also like to insist on a "Uniform" for example "You must wear a suit" or "You must cover your head" "No shorts" "No sandles" exetera...but there are also those church folk who say... "come as you are"... As a young mans said to me once... "These people care more about what I'm wearing, than the fact that I'm actually here!" Sometimes it feels that way at an event... don't you think?

It almost seems like the the folks that complain "You have to wear good garb to events!" are in like mind to the the religious fanatics that insist that kid wears a suit to church. They care more about what is being worn that the fact they they come to events???

How odd that when it comes to something as important as religious practice, the rules are now able to be changed... you don't need a church building, you don't need to dress up, you don't need to sing the old songs... ect.
But when it to something trivial like Dagorhir... YOU NEED to DRESS they way we say... YOU NEED to embrace the fantasy... You need to be in conformity.

Hummph...
The more things change... the more they remain the same. It's just the names that change. the object of worship that moves.

THOUGHTS?
REACTION?

[Ravus]

It almost seems like the the folks that complain "You have to wear good garb to events!" are in like mind to the the religious fanatics that insist that kid wears a suit to church. They care more about what is being worn that the fact they they come to events???

How odd that when it comes to something as important as religious practice, the rules are now able to be changed... you don't need a church building, you don't need to dress up, you don't need to sing the old songs... ect.
But when it to something trivial like Dagorhir... YOU NEED to DRESS they way we say... YOU NEED to embrace the fantasy... You need to be in conformity.

Hummph...
The more things change... the more they remain the same. It's just the names that change. the object of worship that moves.

THOUGHTS?
REACTION?

You know the neat thing about both Religion and Dagorhir? There are always alternatives. If you don't like the practices and tennets of a faith, you can seek out another one. So too- if you don't like dagorhir's garb rules (or combat rules, or weapon styles, etc etc) There are other games that will cater to your tastes.

[Silk]

Also, not everyone agrees that religious worship is as important as the freedom to choose their religious practice (or lack thereof).

As for the garb rhetoric, if there were no garb requirement I believe that we would look like a bunch of goobers.
In garb I am often asked if I'm in a play or going to the Ren Fair. That kind of thing elevates us from kids swinging foam at each other to people creating an alternate reality in which to pretend that they are someone else that is involved in "real battles"

[Varg Bloodeagle]

You should try being a filthy, filthy pagan.  Then you can wear the same clothes to Dagorhir that you'd wear for religious observances, voila, problem solved.

[Arrakis]

Let's put it this way:

When new people walk up to our practices in one of the parks we fight in and stand around looking awed for five minutes at the far edge of my vision, then finally work up the nerve to come closer and talk to somebody, do you think they walk up to one of our un-garbed non-coms, one of our sweats-and-a-tabard fellows, or me/Antonis, in full viking or samurai or middle eastern fighting garb/14th C. cotehardie and hosen?

That's right: they walk up to the guy who looks like he's invested the most time and energy in this hobby.  He clearly cares a lot about what he's doing; he was willing to invest time and energy and money getting a nice outfit together and then put it all on for a practice.

It's partly about demonstrating your give-a-damn. 

It's also partly about not looking like a bunch of scrawny nerds in cutoff sweats and old t-shirts and dirty sneakers (you've all seen what a lot of guys wear to the gym, and those guys are by and large more concerned with appearance than your average Dagorhir fighter).

[hivemind]

THOUGHTS?
REACTION?

First National Boards Post Report Card

Content: 4/10. Interesting because it's a current hot topic, but clearly you are behind on current trends and research. No new information presented or new theories posited.

Presentation: 5/10. At least you know how to use a paragraph break, but the stream-of-consciousness style is amateurish and poorly-developed.

Spelling and Grammar: 3/10. Entire post is legible, but rife with misspellings, grammatical errors, and fantasy punctuation.

Effective Trolling: 4/10. It's a solid start, but with much room for improvement. Next time, try and offend more people, or belittle the dearly-held principles of a few more folks at once.

Overall: 4/10 would not read again.

[GreybeardAbbot]

It's partly about demonstrating your give-a-damn.

That's IT! That's the answer! Good job! Thank you!
That's the central issue that we can all agree on. those that WANT to ware Garb AND those that don't want to be bothered with it. Because BOTH care, but both are defining "demonstrating" giving a damn diffently. So... who get's to define the terms? The traditionalists? or the non-traditionalists?

So Ravis's solution is the only one that applies... and yet another sect is formed.
how do we reach unity without demanding uniformity?

Mia Culpa Hivemind.
I can't run spell check on my phone... and I wish a cared more about correct spelling but I don't. believe it or not, you can a doctorate without it.
and this post has nothing to do with belittling anyones charished beliefs, and more to do with itching a nagging idea in my mind.

thank you to those who help scratch that itch.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

So I ask what would change about Dagorhir IF--- IF--- there where NO Minimum Garb requirements? Would the Game "Grow?"

No, no the game would not grow.  I've been watching other games appear around the country over the years, and the ones involving foam weapon fighting that succeed are all ones that require or encourage some kind of costuming to fit the swords and so on genre.  Multiple times I've seen something pop up that doesn't, whether out of lack of money, or a desire to be more "sport-like", and while they may exist for a while they eventually peter out and die. 

[Sváva The SpaceWolf]

That's right: they walk up to the guy who looks like he's invested the most time and energy in this hobby.  He clearly cares a lot about what he's doing; he was willing to invest time and energy and money getting a nice outfit together and then put it all on for a practice.

It's partly about demonstrating your give-a-damn. 

I think this point should be made more often. Demonstrating that you've put time and effort into a hobby makes that hobby look WORTH spending time and effort on. It shows that you take pride in what you do, and it lends respectability to what you do.

If you roll in looking like you could be playing ultimate frisbee you just look silly and awkwardly out of place.

[Janwin]

I read a couple lines into your post, then gave up because it was filled with spelling and grammatical errors and I assumed that, being as the original poster couldn't even take the time to run a spellcheck, the original poster couldn't put together two coherent thoughts and it wasn't worth my time.

Then I read some replies from respectable members of the community, which caused me to go back and actually have to read the post.

I wish I hadn't.  I would like my 5 minutes of trying to translate into English back.

The only statement of yours that I found worth replying to is the following:

How odd that when it comes to something as important as religious practice

...

But when it to something trivial like Dagorhir...

I'm sorry, but I would argue that you have those backwards.  Religious practice is quite trivial in comparison to something important like Dagorhir.

After all, there is one strong commonality among all Dagorhirrim: they play Dagorhir.  Not all Dagorhirrim share the same religion.  Thus, it can only be derived that Dagorhir is considerably more important than religious practice.

[Milo Baines]

That the goal is to involve people in the game and grow the popularity of the sport? Or SHOULD it be exclusive to select group of players?

We should be striving to involve like minded individuals into our game. That way lies true and sustainable growth. Assuming we drop all garb rules and assuming the game grows (I'm inclined to belive Kyrax that it wouldn't.) then those of us who desire a garb heavy game will leave and do something else, thus diminishing the number of folk who play.

[Whisper Moonson]

Living the fantasy is the core reason for Dagorhir's existence. Fighting is a huge part of that, but it is a subset of the fantasy. The idea from the phrase "Hobbit Wars" was to have events where you felt like you were taking part in a battle scene in a fantasy novel or movie. It's what attracted me in the first place, and without it I would drift away to SCA or western martial arts.

Without the garb requirement, Dagorhir probably would not exist today. It probably would've collapsed before I even joined in 1979. None of the other foam fighting games would exist, either, although different ones probably would've been founded, and the ones that survived would have garb requirements. It's just the nature of the beast. Even in the western/historical European martial arts community, the participants sometimes dress up and have period style feasts. Swords and medieval pageantry and garb just work together. Without the dress-up, it's just dorks hitting each other with ugly foam sticks.

[GreybeardAbbot]

The only statement of yours that I found worth replying to is the following:

How odd that when it comes to something as important as religious practice
But when it to something trivial like Dagorhir...

I'm sorry, but I would argue that you have those backwards.

I thought some might. I was speaking in generalities. In general the practice of religion (whichever one you happen to choose) is taken up with life sacrificing gravity.
In general I don't believe most Dagohirim would lay thier lives down for the game. (Just saying)

[Janwin]

Yup.  I'd have to agree with Kyrax, Milo and Whisper on this.

If it weren't for some sort of rules making people put in even a bare minimum of effort to make it so that the field looks like a battle instead of a bunch of kids running around in shorts and t-shirts, I'm pretty sure I also wouldn't be around.  Because without the look, that's all it is.  A bunch of kids hitting each other with fake swords.  With the look, it's a bunch of medieval warriors hitting each other with swords.

One draws far more and much better attention than the other.

Look at it this way:

Would you have enjoyed Braveheart if it was just a bunch of guys in jeans and t-shirts on the field?
Would you have enjoyed Lord of the Rings if the hobbits were 5'9" tall wearing sneakers and shorts?
Would Kingdom of Heaven felt as real if, instead of being dressed for the crusades, Orlando Bloom and the other actors had been dressed like they were walking down the street in Santa Monica?

It's the same idea.  When we look the part, it's far more enjoyable for everyone, and it LOOKS much more interesting.

I thought some might. I was speaking in generalities. In general the practice of religion (whichever one you happen to choose) is taken up with life sacrificing gravity.
In general I don't believe most Dagohirim would lay thier lives down for the game. (Just saying)

I'd lay down my life sooner for Dagorhir than I would for religion.  And no, that's not an invitation, people.

[Stellaria]

My opinions:

The game is not Dagorhir without both focuses - fighting hard and looking the part.
Whether or not the game would "grow" if we no longer required that fighters look the part is immaterial. Dagorhir isn't a "fill the seats" situation. IMO, it is better to continue playing Dagorhir with all it's components than it is to get more people on the field.
This is not a question of eternal salvation, this is a question of entertainment. The state of nobody's soul depends on whether or not they choose to participate in Dagorhir. Either they like the whole package and choose to join in the fun, or they don't like it and go elsewhere for their fun. No worries over here.
I think it would be great to have Dagorhir consist only of people willing to accept the whole package with open arms. We've had events with ONLY people like that. Know what was awesome? THE WHOLE DAMNED EVENT. We kept looking around us, thinking "Holy crap this is SO COOL!" and the fighting was that much more fun for everyone there because of it.

So no, I do not think the game would benefit in any way from tossing out minimum standards. I think it would suffer, and become watered down, and less fun for the ones who got into it for the full package deal.

[Ilyas ibn Yahya]

My opinions:

. . .

This is not a question of eternal salvation, this is a question of entertainment. The state of nobody's soul depends on whether or not they choose to participate in Dagorhir.

. . .

Although good garb is a sign of rectitude.

[Reverend]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

I would rather have 10 ****ty fighters who are in garb than 1,000 amazing fighters who aren't in garb.

I'm stick-jock as they come. I fight so that I can hit people with sticks and get better at hitting people with sticks. I train new people how to hit people with sticks.

But, I won't waste my time on someone if they aren't willing to put forth some effort into complying with the rules. You want to learn from me? You better be in garb. Even my non-practice training sessions, you better be in garb or you aren't swinging sticks with me.

I practice the way that I play and I play in garb.

[Milo Baines]

I practice the way that I play and I play in garb.

That's a motto to get behind.

[Blk]

The most difficult and time consuming part of Dag was my first (and still only) set of garb.  That said, it is a huge part of the experience.  I think it would be cool if a first time fighter was given some leeway, but after that first event you should have your act together.  But I also think that if you have been doing this for 10+ years your garb should blow me away with its amazing quality and detail.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

Dagorhir was founded by theater people who wanted to taste real combat without the risk of injury. The players were acting out death scenes, talking in bad British accents, grunting like orcs goblins and the like. And swinging heavy weapons at each other in an effort to "KILL" their enemy. The combat went with the histrionics of the whole experience, if you wanted, you could immerse yourself so deeply that you would get an adrenalin rush as if you were truly fighting for your very life. The dress is an important part of that immersion, when you are fighting a man who looks like a viking, you can imagine he is trying to kill you much easier than if you are fighting someone in jeans and a t-shirt. The point is that you need the idea in your head that this is strange, I am not on my way to my cubical, I am in the dark ages and this guy wants me dead. Not this a sport, or silly stick tag.

I would argue that the people who don't understand the reason for garb are like interlopers in a game they don't understand. I truly feel bad for them as they are surrounded by nerds and they seem to be trying not to be nerds themselves. It is an uphill battle when they would get so much more out of it if they simply embraced this lunacy known as Dagorhir and try to 'kill' someone instead of trying to win a sporting event.

Dagorhir is different things to different people. Wearing garb is not a hardship, it does not hurt in any way. So if you are not into the immersion of the game, why would you deprive someone else that part of it?

[Milo Baines]

So far everyone has said why we should be wearing garb and enforcing garb rules...

I like that.

[warwell]

No, no the game would not grow.

I don't think this is necessarily true. It seems that loose garb standards have helped the game grow dramatically here in FL. We now have a large number of cross-over players from another game because we haven't insisted on garb. I remember when an event with 20 people was a LARGE FL event, but now we are regularly getting 100+. I personally love dressing up but I'd rather have numbers.

I think the FL experience may be different than other regions of the country, but loose standards have worked for us.

YIS,

Rufus of Dragon Coast

[Tooka the Gangly Goblin]

So far everyone has said why we should be wearing garb and enforcing garb rules...

I like that.

[Raven Ghost]

1. Does "Worship Wars" include foam fighting? Because then we should have them come to Rag.

2. It COULD be said that the reason that some people look sideways at a person who wears sandals and jean shorts to church, is because the other people view it as being disrespectful to their worship service and indicates that the person doesn't even care enough to dress up......so, in Dag, if you don't dress in garb...aren't you saying that garb is not worth it and the people who do iwear garb are the problem??

3. "As a young man said to me once... 'These people care more about what I'm wearing, than the fact that I'm actually here!' "....did you explain to him that the congregation didn't think it was about him? He wants a medal for coming?? These people attended the service to try to connect to what they see as the most powerful force in the Universe, an almighty creator and hear the words passed down to them over 2,000 years from the entity they believe can save their immortal souls...and they should stop to give this guy a cookie?  You got to be kidding.

4. "Sometimes it feels that way at an event... don't you think?" What, that we ask you to participate in our hobby the right way??? I have only been doing this since March. I WANT to fight the LOTR! I am not playing archery tag, wrestling or fencing. I am playing what I was sold as Dagorhir.

Many of the people griping about garb have no clue how high the standards are in other hobbies. I re-enacted Civil War TWENTY YEARS AGO and they had security escort you off the field if your jacket wasn't wool! Or you musket was a short barrel musket!!

Yes, I am the new guy here, but damn it. I like garb...and good garb. If I want to get beat up in street clothes there are bars both in the city and country where I can do that with the application of a few choice words.

Garb makes it all worth it. The games is a fusion of both. And I don't understand why people keep acting like one is a trade off of the other.

[Hundrsut]

My opinions:

The game is not Dagorhir without both focuses - fighting hard and looking the part.
Whether or not the game would "grow" if we no longer required that fighters look the part is immaterial. Dagorhir isn't a "fill the seats" situation. IMO, it is better to continue playing Dagorhir with all it's components than it is to get more people on the field.
This is not a question of eternal salvation, this is a question of entertainment. The state of nobody's soul depends on whether or not they choose to participate in Dagorhir. Either they like the whole package and choose to join in the fun, or they don't like it and go elsewhere for their fun. No worries over here.
I think it would be great to have Dagorhir consist only of people willing to accept the whole package with open arms. We've had events with ONLY people like that. Know what was awesome? THE WHOLE DAMNED EVENT. We kept looking around us, thinking "Holy crap this is SO COOL!" and the fighting was that much more fun for everyone there because of it.

So no, I do not think the game would benefit in any way from tossing out minimum standards. I think it would suffer, and become watered down, and less fun for the ones who got into it for the full package deal.

i remember that event.....probably the best I've been too.....kept just turning my head and seeing garb ...and garb

[Fayne Erving]

I see this issue from both sides.

One the Pro-garb side I see it as a necessary ingredient in making Dagorhir more than just a sport. Without the usual dribble of comparing us to nerds, unless we're dressed up, there are lots of sports all over the country that only have a few thousand people interested in them either because the sport demands a specific skill set, or the financial barrier is too high, or just not enough people know about it. I See Dagorhir as more than a sport, it's a culture, and it IS a culture because we require minimum garb standards. That requirment has a hidden, deeper meaning and it isn't "are you willing to look like us" it's more, "Are you willing to join the community?" Dagorhir is a community of medieval and fantasy buffs, the majority of whom enjoy a strenuous outdoor activity.

However, on the Anti-garb side, I see the garb standard as an arbitrary hurdle. Indeed it does turn away many starting, potential fighters. When I first started dag, I hated the garb standard. I thought it was a bit selfish for someone else to expect me to spend money on a costume I don't want to wear so I don't risk "ruining someone else's medeival experience." (Which, btw, never sell the garb minimum with this phrase. It's exceedingly arrogant) I wore my karate gi and told myself I was just there to fight. After a while though, I found I -wanted- to be part of the community, and I made some real garb.

To me, the minimum garb standard doesn't, at least for me, help people immerse themselves into the community. I believe it creates an obstacle that many potentially good dagohir can't get over and thus never commit. Take my friend Billy, for example. The man is an exceptional fighter, athletic, has a great concept of the letter and spirit of the rules. But he simply refuses to come to events with me because he doesn't want to dress up. I feel if he were able to come in plain clothes, after a while he would be influenced to want to make his own garb and join the community too.

However, I don't have a better solution than the current one in place. I've heard in other games that there is no garb standard and that they are as well garbed as they are because they have a lot of respected people in good garb setting good examples. Dagorhir clearly has no lack in that department, but one is left to wonder if the minimum standard helps or hinders that goal. I see the intent of the rule, and I wholly agree with it, but one has to wonder how effective the method really is at achieving the goal.

[Hundrsut]

I got a friend "steve" doesn't like taking leg shots.

if only steve could come to an event and be around people who have amazing leg shot taking ability than i think he could learn to accept leg shots.

this game is awash with people trying to make it something it is not.

if we turn away 500 people who didn't want to play Dagorhir that's fine.

every time i hear the argument well we are turning people away I just think yeah....

so would chess club if you tried to sink their battleships.
the game is what it is . It should not change.
plenty of other hobbies out there

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

In short, I want to look like this:

not like this:

Which one grows the game again?

[Magnus]

I too want more Dagorhir fighters wearing metal helmets.

[Odran]

In short, I want to look like this:

not like this:

Which one grows the game again?

Ironically, the game in the lower image probably has higher "on paper" garb standards. The question is why the top game attracts people who build good kits, while the other game doesn't.

One reason is that the top game has higher entry costs, due to the safety gear (aka armor requirements.)  This, obviously, causes those who can't afford garb not to join the top game. That, in turn, creates a culture in which everyone wears good garb, which causes most fighters to wear good garb.

Another reason is that the top game tends to encourage late medieval/Renaissance plate armor, while the bottom seems to encourage various fantasy garbs. To the typical person, someone in full plate armor looks cooler than a historically accurate peasant or a monk, which in turn look less uncool than an elf or a vampire. Even a properly done vampire, dwarf, elf, or wizard looks quite nerdy to the average person. The top image wouldn't be nearly as cool if everyone was garbed as vampiric elven sorcerers instead of 15th century men-at-arms.

[Kyrax the Hobbled]

No, no the game would not grow.

I don't think this is necessarily true. It seems that loose garb standards have helped the game grow dramatically here in FL...

Nice selective quotation Rufus, now go back and READ the whole thing. 

I've started more than a few chapters and learned the hard way that if you don't set expectations properly, you'll have a harder and harder time making the transition to the actual rules of Dagorhir.  This goes for weapons, garb, rules of play, etc. 

Sure at home you can, within reason, play how you want to.  But the first time your new guys head to an out of chapter event, they'll hit a brick wall when they can't fight in what they thought was okay garb (or their weapons fail if you're "flexible" there also).  That's when the manure hits the oscilating wind device and your formerly motivated guys are all tweaked at being jerked around at the Dagorhir event. 

Don't get me wrong, I know how hard it is to get a chapter going, and I'm psyched at the apparent growth we see in your state.  That's wonderful and I hope it continues to grow and expand, Florida's a big place that was until recently completely underserved by Dagorhir. 

[warwell]

But the first time your new guys head to an out of chapter event, they'll hit a brick wall when they can't fight in what they thought was okay garb (or their weapons fail if you're "flexible" there also).

All in good time, sir. We are SO far away from long-standing Dag realms that we don't really worry too much about going to out-of-state events yet.

YIS,
Rufus of Dragon Coast

[Gaul]

Read about half the thread.  Please excuse me, it didn't look like it was going much of anywhere.

  I'm not against a zero-RP garb-optional fighting game.  I'd probably even play it.  But I'd probably prefer going to Dagorhir events.  There are a number of things about dag that filter out the lame dorks from the cool ones.  Most of these things are related to equipment acquisition.  Getting into Dagorhir is not so expensive that you can't do it without a lot of extra money, but it takes enough time and money that a certain class of lame misfits (as opposed to cool misfits) are put off.  Those lame misfits and another class or two of jocks would flood a game with no garb.  I'd have fun on the field in a situation like that (still in garb because it's better in the sun than my mundies), but it would lose the atmosphere that I love about Dagorhir events.  The lame misfits can go crappify some easier LARP, and the jocks can dick around with frisbees instead.

[Spiderling]

Another reason is that the top game tends to encourage late medieval/Renaissance plate armor, while the bottom seems to encourage various fantasy garbs. To the typical person, someone in full plate armor looks cooler than a historically accurate peasant or a monk, which in turn look less uncool than an elf or a vampire. Even a properly done vampire, dwarf, elf, or wizard looks quite nerdy to the average person. The top image wouldn't be nearly as cool if everyone was garbed as vampiric elven sorcerers instead of 15th century men-at-arms.

Highest worldwide box office grossing movies of all time:
#3: The Avengers (comic book movie)
#4: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2 (wizards)
#6: Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (swords and armor, elves, wizards)
#12: The Dark Knight (comic book movie)
#13: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (wizards)
#15: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 1 (wizards)
#17: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (moar wizards)
#18: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (yet m0ar wizardz)
#19: The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (swords and armor, elves, w!z4rd5)
#22: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (I put on my robe and wizard hat)
#23: Spider-Man 3 (comic book movie)
#25: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (wizzle, yo)
#26: The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (swords and armor, elves, anyone for wizard staff?)

Can we stop wringing our hands about looking "nerdy" to the "average person," yet?

[Ilyas ibn Yahya]

Another reason is that the top game tends to encourage late medieval/Renaissance plate armor, while the bottom seems to encourage various fantasy garbs. To the typical person, someone in full plate armor looks cooler than a historically accurate peasant or a monk, which in turn look less uncool than an elf or a vampire. Even a properly done vampire, dwarf, elf, or wizard looks quite nerdy to the average person. The top image wouldn't be nearly as cool if everyone was garbed as vampiric elven sorcerers instead of 15th century men-at-arms.

Highest worldwide box office grossing movies of all time:
#3: The Avengers (comic book movie)
#4: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2 (wizards)
#6: Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (swords and armor, elves, wizards)
#12: The Dark Knight (comic book movie)
#13: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (wizards)
#15: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 1 (wizards)
#17: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (moar wizards)
#18: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (yet m0ar wizardz)
#19: The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (swords and armor, elves, w!z4rd5)
#22: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (I put on my robe and wizard hat)
#23: Spider-Man 3 (comic book movie)
#25: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (wizzle, yo)
#26: The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (swords and armor, elves, anyone for wizard staff?)

Can we stop wringing our hands about looking "nerdy" to the "average person," yet?

Not until after The Hobbit comes out.

[Stellaria]

Also, I really wish that people would stop using SCA as a proof that dropping garb rules somehow magically creates a proper peer-pressure system to make good garb happen.
Have you BEEN to SCA events? They have the same problems with crummy, half-assed not-really-appropriate garb as we do. Ymmv based on location, of course, but up here, Dag looks better than SCA on the whole.

[Arrakis]

Also, I really wish that people would stop using SCA as a proof that dropping garb rules somehow magically creates a proper peer-pressure system to make good garb happen.
Have you BEEN to SCA events? They have the same problems with crummy, half-assed not-really-appropriate garb as we do. Ymmv based on location, of course, but up here, Dag looks better than SCA on the whole.

And an even worse problem with "Ooh this 18th C. Victorian/19th C. Persian/19th C. Japanese thing looks awesome and it's from farther back in history than last Thursday!  That means it's garb!  I'll go make a ****ty version out of polyester and little plastic gemstones and wear it ERMAGERD ERVRYWHERRR."


Plus, in REDACTED, they have really lax garb rules and even laxer garb enforcement and their fields at even large regional events mostly look like a bunch of guys with part time jobs on their way to the gym and hobos.  Like, seriously.  It's bad.

[Raven Ghost]

 The top image wouldn't be nearly as cool if everyone was garbed as vampiric elven sorcerers instead of 15th century men-at-arms.

Or.....WOULD THEY???:

[hivemind]

Stop comparing us to the SCA. The garb I saw at Ragnarok this year was, on average, FAR BETTER than the garb I've seen at various SCA events this year. Yes, photos from wars look cool. They look cool because there's hundreds of them in shiny metal helmets. They look cool because you only ever see pictures from far away, or of the cool people.

Here, case in point. Pax Interruptus in Thescorre last weekend. Aethelmearc war practice. Both teh king and the crown prince were in attendance, so you'd think people would put their best foot forward. But for every guy in great harness and garb, there's a scrub in uncovered pickle barrel or sneakers. Just watch:

http://youtu.be/IKcQnzI536s

There are dudes that look awesome, and there's the dingleberry in white sneakers and a purple tie-dye tabard. Seriously.

The SCA is NOT, on average doing it better. Their "better than us" people are a LOT better, but their "worse than us" people are a LOT worse.

[Raven Ghost]

I too want more Dagorhir fighters wearing metal helmets.

Rules change: Only metal helms stop arrows.

Problem solved.

[Raven Ghost]

Can we stop wringing our hands about looking "nerdy" to the "average person," yet?

Hear! Hear!

Beside...have you hung out with average people?? They are as boring as crap!!

[Thrud]

I would rather have 10 ****ty fighters who are in garb than 1,000 amazing fighters who aren't in garb.

Coming from someone who is not the greatest fighter, but puts an effort in making and wearing garb, it makes me very happy that you would prefer me over the amazing fighters without garb.

[Raven Ghost]

Coming from someone who is not the greatest fighter, but puts an effort in making and wearing garb, it makes me very happy that you would prefer me over the amazing fighters without garb.

Where is the Valkyrie garb you promised??

[Thrud]

It's on the backburner right now. I'm too afraid I'm going to look too much like She-ra.

[djemps]

http://youtu.be/IKcQnzI536s

Wow. Place your hand across the top half of the screen and just watch the legs n feet. 

[hivemind]

http://youtu.be/IKcQnzI536s

Wow. Place your hand across the top half of the screen and just watch the legs n feet. 

But then you don't get to see my greataxe going up and down vigorously!

Seriously, yes. Do this. It's ridiculous.

[Fayne Erving]

I got a friend "steve" doesn't like taking leg shots.

if only steve could come to an event and be around people who have amazing leg shot taking ability than i think he could learn to accept leg shots.

this game is awash with people trying to make it something it is not.

if we turn away 500 people who didn't want to play Dagorhir that's fine.

every time i hear the argument well we are turning people away I just think yeah....

so would chess club if you tried to sink their battleships.
the game is what it is . It should not change.
plenty of other hobbies out there

Not even close to the same thing. While you can play the bare bones version of Dag when you're not wearing garb, you can't play any version of Dag if you're not taking your shots.

I understand your point, regardless of your poor analogy. Playing Dagorhir without garb is playing without the soul of the game. It's trying to make Dag into a lesser version of itself. No garb dag is a dag with no soul. I get it. Trust me. On my own field, I don't allow people to become official members of the chapter until they have garb, weapons, and a working knowledge of the rules.

But you know what? I wouldn't have anyone if I told every bystander that walked up "Oh you're interested in giving it a shot? Well put on this tunic and these scrub pants, take off your sunglasses, and I'm gonna need you to go barefoot cuz those white sneakers might ruin our photo shoot"

No. I let people come, fight in their mundies, even two or three practices in a row. But if they really want to join the culture, really want to become a full fledged member of Dagorhir, I require them to have garb and weapons.

Now of course I only encourage this lax enforcement for new guys. As I've said, I don't have a better solution to endearing the culture of Dag in a setting without garb standards. So I work with what I've got.

http://youtu.be/IKcQnzI536s

It's amazing how headshots dramatically change shield to shield combat.

[Hundrsut]

practice vs events.

i dont care what happens at anyones practices ever .

at an event even new people should be in garb "gasp"

[Gaul]

http://youtu.be/IKcQnzI536s

There are dudes that look awesome, and there's the dingleberry in white sneakers and a purple tie-dye tabard. Seriously.

There's also a certain amount of body-body and shield-body contact.  I was always under the impression that it was disallowed in SCA fighting.  What's going on here?

[Varadin]

Gilarc thats actually a pretty calm press, thats mostly shield-shield contact, which is fine. Shield to the body isn't allowed but a lot of the video is someone throwing their body onto a shield. Its fine.

But thats a very standard looking Sca line. Seriously The guy in purple with white shoes? thats 1-10 guys out there. The fighting is about being safe, not about being in good garb.