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[Garkoth]

I've recently started doing pell practice with our local SCA fighters, and I've been learning a lot about fighting in general from them. When they talked with me about crossgaming, I originally thought "Whatever, fighting is fighting." But now that I've tried learning their techniques, I really see what they're concerned with.

Aside from the whole headshots issue--which I'm honestly not concerned with--these guys train to use their body much more than I ever have. I get fussed for not rotating my hips, I get fussed for moving my shield when rotating my hips, et cetera. This particular clique of SCA fighters approaches their game very much like a martial art.

Now, trying to take these techniques back to Dagorhir, I'm so much slower than I'm used to. Just swinging with my arm is faster and hits hard enough for people down here. When I try to use some of the SCA shots, I also find that there's just not enough weight to my weapon for the shot to work. There's a series of "torque" shots I've been taught which put the fulcrum of the shot on the weapon itsself, and there is definitely not enough mass to my 12oz weapon to score sufficient force.

Do you think I'm doing it wrong, or I should try fighting Dagorhir with more heavy (and still safely padded) weapons? Do you think the balance point of the weapon could affect it's weakness with torque shots?

[Nessie-Pop With the Temper]

I'm always the first guy to advocate using heavier weapons in Dagorhir, so I say yes to that, regardless. It's a theory of mine that every shot thrown in stick-fighting sports has ratio of arm-to-hip, in regards to the origin of the primary force of the shot. Some fighters have higher or lower ratios, based on their individual style and hit calibration. SCA fighters tend to have more hip on their shots, due to the weight of their weapons and the force required to actually count as a hit in heavy combat. Dagorhir fighters (this is in general, and is in no way an absolute statement) can get away with a little more arm because of a lower sufficient force requirement and lighter weapons. I use a fairly heavy sword (~26 oz.) and I find I don't need to use as much force with many of my shots as I do with a lighter weapon, so that could have something to do with the disparity you're seeing. Have you tried any of these "torque" techniques with heavier weapons? How different are the techniques you're being taught from the way you usually fight?

[Ryees]

Did someone say realistically weighted weapons? Because I like not fighting with big long toothpicks. 

[Kelmain]

It depends on your goal.  If your objective is to be the best Dag fighter on the field, your crossgame technique will not serve you particularly well.  If you don’t care about that, do what feels right to you.

I carry a heavy shield and a relatively heavy sword and don’t throw any shot that I can’t deliver with a real sword.   My blows land solidly, but I’m proportionately slower than the ‘best’ fighters on the field.  My style has been described as “old school” and doubtless it is.  I can live with that and my enjoyment is not diminished by the challenge of manipulating the battle flow to give me openings rather than being faster than my opponent.

[Varadin]

Just swinging with my arm is faster and hits hard enough for people down here.

First, the shot calibration is too low down there. Start calling light on limb wristed bull****.

When I try to use some of the SCA shots, I also find that there's just not enough weight to my weapon for the shot to work. There's a series of "torque" shots I've been taught which put the fulcrum of the shot on the weapon itsself, and there is definitely not enough mass to my 12oz weapon to score sufficient force.

You are doing it wrong. My guess is on your follow through, Most likely the heavy weight of your Sca stick is carrying a shot through. You aren't swinging through it the shot you are just letting the weapon carry itself. In otherwords... you are doing it wrong and it will travel slower because of it.

Good hip motion into a shot will make it travel faster and harder, but it is a hard thing to learn after just arming shots for a while.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

Heavier weapons will serve you well. In Dag the shorter stroke denser foam shots can feel like full force hits to the unarmored fighter. The sting produced can mask the relative lack of actual force on the shot. Many of the lighter weapons are able to use all blue and some other inferior foams due to their relative lack of force (mass being one of the multipliers of force). When using the correct stroke and body mechanics, the heavier weapon will always deliver more force than lighter weapons. The misconception that swing speed on a lighter weapon will be so increased that the force will be identical is woefully accepted by many in the game. A proper shot from a heavy weapon will be going the same speed as it's lighter counterpart at impact. The other misconception is that you can throw a shot with a heavy as quickly as a light, it can look that way due to the fact that a heavy user is forced to learn the tells of opponents and start a counter-swing long in advance of the reactive swing of a light weapon user. This is not to take away from the quick reflexes of a block strike enthusiast, the lighter gear allows them to wait an extra beat and decide on their retaliatory strike a hair later, giving them more options.

While lighter gear fighters can rely on muscle memory and lightning responses to shots at contact, the heavier gear fighter must play a more chess-like mental game to be effective. Waiting until contact is made to decide on the counter, results in an inability to overcome their opponents speed advantage, the heavy user has to see the shot coming and already be countering long before contact is made. In a nutshell, the heavy fighter has to be thinking one move ahead of his opponent or he will rarely be able to best a good light gear speed fighter.

[Alric]

Is it possible that the balance on your lighter swords is different than the SCA sticks they were using to teach you shots?

A properly balanced heavy sword can keep up with most Dag fighters. And a poorly balanced 12oz sword can be hard to use. Proper balance in this case means being balanced in a way that allows the weapon to be swung hard and fast with minimal effort. Check out the first video by Peter Johnsson here for a discussion of how blades should be balanced: http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=23706&pid=223115&st=0 .

[Olos]

Using your hips properly should absolutely not slow down your swing speed.  The reverse, if anything really.  It can take a bit to learn how to incorporate it into your swings without thinking about it, but definitely pays dividends in the end. 

[Dane]

It's easier to get sufficient force with a heavier sword. If you're using your body properly (sounds like you aren't), you shouldn't notice much of a difference in the speed of your shots. The difference between a 12 oz. and a 20 oz. for someone who knows what he's doing is how much his opponent complains about how his gear should fail.

[Magnus]

Better body mechanics should be producing faster shots that are also harder. If you are not achieving both of those things, then your body mechanics have not improved.

The best fighters in a game with no weight minimums, which I've fought in a few times, power all their shots from their hips and trunk, and hit harder with 8oz sticks than most Dag fighters do with 20oz sticks--because they have better body mechanics.

Garkoth, next time I see you at an event, please ask me for some pointers. I'd be happy to explain/demonstrate this area to you.

[Arrakis]

I've recently started doing pell practice with our local SCA fighters, and I've been learning a lot about fighting in general from them. When they talked with me about crossgaming, I originally thought "Whatever, fighting is fighting." But now that I've tried learning their techniques, I really see what they're concerned with.

Aside from the whole headshots issue--which I'm honestly not concerned with--these guys train to use their body much more than I ever have. I get fussed for not rotating my hips, I get fussed for moving my shield when rotating my hips, et cetera. This particular clique of SCA fighters approaches their game very much like a martial art.

Now, trying to take these techniques back to Dagorhir, I'm so much slower than I'm used to. Just swinging with my arm is faster and hits hard enough for people down here. When I try to use some of the SCA shots, I also find that there's just not enough weight to my weapon for the shot to work. There's a series of "torque" shots I've been taught which put the fulcrum of the shot on the weapon itsself, and there is definitely not enough mass to my 12oz weapon to score sufficient force.

Do you think I'm doing it wrong, or I should try fighting Dagorhir with more heavy (and still safely padded) weapons? Do you think the balance point of the weapon could affect it's weakness with torque shots?

First, realize that a lot of SCA techniques come from the same place a lot of Dagorhir techniques come from: From what people found "worked" for them against other fighters in their game. 

Those torque shots?  They're great shots against SCA fighters, when you're using a really heavy piece of rattan and when you're trying to time a shot into a defense at a much higher calibration.  Not so great when you're trying to get a solid thump on a much faster target.  SCA is very much about timing and hitting around armor.  I can't throw a lot of the forearm snipes and other shots that get in by pushing people around or slipping through holes in wards in the SCA because the armor and the sword baskets stop them; they bounce off of one piece and there goes my power, enough that it won't hit hard enough.

As far as mechanics, back up from the pell a quarter-step and tell your SCA buddies that you want to work mostly on fighting from range.  A lot of the in-fighting game in the SCA focuses on short-sticked snaps to the head, high wraps, and torques and other goofy crosses that don't work so great in Dag.  Learn the longer-range wraps (the rotate-your-wrist-to-turn-your-sword-over-at-the-last-second wraps) and then let them teach you the full-arm I'm-right-next-to-you-range wraps, but leave off any of the ludicrously looping, over-head kind of shots that are a lot of their bread-and-butter, if they're anything like most SCA fighters.

Do pell work with old Dag swords, too.

[Garkoth]

Yeah, I'm I'm just starting to fight with them, and I'm at the very least comfortable fighting when it comes to Dag. Last Dag practice I learned that most of the snaps and wards they taught don't work very well in Dag. I was able to put their "post block" ward to good use, tough--maybe that's only because I was fighting newer players last Friday, though.

I'll do some experimenting with my body mechanics and try to get some close supervision on my technique with bot Dag and SCA weaponry. It's very possible that my body mechanics are the issue, and it's also very possible that I've just built up habits that interfere with me trying to properly utilize my body when 'actually' fighting.

I like the suggestion of doing pell work with old Dag swords. Thanks, Arrakis.

Roughly where do you like for your weapons to balance?

This is a simple Image I whipped up. Past the red line is illegal, and the brown line is roughly where the fulcrum of the torque shots I was talking about is. Feel free to download this image and draw a line where you believe the ideal point of balance on a sword is.

Individual replies:

Have you tried any of these "torque" techniques with heavier weapons? How different are the techniques you're being taught from the way you usually fight?

I haven't. I'll try (*slowly*) throwing some of the shots with my min-red; I can competently fight slower, newer players with it in one hand so I think I can safely try throwing SCA shots with it.

The techniques are pretty different. I mean, I knew the basic wrap they taught me (which they call the thumb-lead), but I never really had thought to differentiate the shots I throw by nomenclature. For example, these guys have three different types of shots based on the point the attack pivots at (Weapon, Wrist, Body). I do think my fighting game will benefit from SCA practice no matter what, because prior to this, I didn't do pell--my coordination and accuracy will benefit regardless of whether or not specific techniques transfer.

It depends on your goal.  If your objective is to be the best Dag fighter on the field, your crossgame technique will not serve you particularly well.  If you don’t care about that, do what feels right to you.

At this point, I'm feeling it out. To be honest, swinging heavier stuff around feels more real. In the end, I'll probably go with what's most effective, but I will also probably end up taking something from this training even if I abandon it as a discipline.

First, the shot calibration is too low down there. Start calling light on limb wristed bull****.

I don't know, man. I'm not saying I'M DA STRONGEST or anything, but people called my shots when I was at Ides of March, and I've definitely gotten stronger (and better) since then.

When I try to use some of the SCA shots, I also find that there's just not enough weight to my weapon for the shot to work. There's a series of "torque" shots I've been taught which put the fulcrum of the shot on the weapon itsself, and there is definitely not enough mass to my 12oz weapon to score sufficient force.

You are doing it wrong. My guess is on your follow through, Most likely the heavy weight of your Sca stick is carrying a shot through. You aren't swinging through it the shot you are just letting the weapon carry itself. In otherwords... you are doing it wrong and it will travel slower because of it.

Good hip motion into a shot will make it travel faster and harder, but it is a hard thing to learn after just arming shots for a while.

I believe your assessment here, and I'll try to pay close attention to correcting my poor habits if they exist and are hampering me.

Heavier weapons will serve you well...
While lighter gear fighters can rely on muscle memory and lightning responses to shots at contact, the heavier gear fighter must play a more chess-like mental game to be effective. Waiting until contact is made to decide on the counter, results in an inability to overcome their opponents speed advantage, the heavy user has to see the shot coming and already be countering long before contact is made. In a nutshell, the heavy fighter has to be thinking one move ahead of his opponent or he will rarely be able to best a good light gear speed fighter.

This is kind of what I was thinking. If I can learn to "keep up" with heavier gear, then ultimately decide to be an ultralight stickjock, I'll have done nothing but benefited from learning to fight with "the heavy disadvantage."

Is it possible that the balance on your lighter swords is different than the SCA sticks they were using to teach you shots?

A properly balanced heavy sword can keep up with most Dag fighters. And a poorly balanced 12oz sword can be hard to use. Proper balance in this case means being balanced in a way that allows the weapon to be swung hard and fast with minimal effort.

That is a strong possibility, Alric. And it's one I'm going to investigate next time I'm swinging their sticks around. My 12oz swords are essentially 'perfectly' balanced at the lowest possible point. It was a coincidence, not my intention. I've just used them that way since that's the way they came out. (See the image I posted, if you're feeling particularly helpful.)

And I'm afraid I don't have time to watch those videos, as long as they are. I also wasn't hearing any sound when I tried to watch them.

Garkoth, next time I see you at an event, please ask me for some pointers. I'd be happy to explain/demonstrate this area to you.

Thanks, Magnus. I saw you at Ides this year, but you were always busy giving someone pointers when you were off of the battlefield. I didn't want to interrupt. XD

And, Arrakis, I'll take all of your suggestions to my SCA friends. It might seem silly to brag on them, but I'm confident they are among the best SCA fighters. People are getting upset with the knight (who is always hosting for me) I'm working with for winning too many tournaments--and he fights florentine. He and his squire are certainly the best fighters I personally know and can vouch for.

[Meager]

My 12oz swords are essentially 'perfectly' balanced at the lowest possible point.

They use swords in GTG?

[pquick]

My 12oz swords are essentially 'perfectly' balanced at the lowest possible point.

They use swords in GTG?

lol

[Dane]

This is kind of what I was thinking. If I can learn to "keep up" with heavier gear, then ultimately decide to be an ultralight stickjock, I'll have done nothing but benefited from learning to fight with "the heavy disadvantage."

Your gear has to be obscenely heavy to put you at a disadvantage.

[Blackhawk The Apollyon]

Dagorhir has often been described as a game of rock paper scissors. Differing load outs are best for defeating each other, as are differing fighting styles. Currently the predominant (and most successful) load out is medium weight gear (about 1/2oz per inch of overall length). And the style is quick reactive strikes that rely on muscle memory. Moving u to 1oz per inch requires a full change of styles while medium weight can still defeat light weight with the same style as long as you are able to ramp up the power.

[Alric]

Some thoughts (larp phsyics, here): your forearm weighs about 40oz, and your hand about 14oz. You're swinging all of that when you swing a sword. So when you swing a 24oz sword instead of a 12oz sword, you aren't doubling the real total weight that you're swinging. You're actually adding less than the weight of your hand. Of course, the physical forces involved are really complex (I don't pretend to understand them) and depending how that sword is balanced you might have to do a lot more work to move it. But I wonder if the way we talk about swords in isolation - as objects on a table, rather than as extensions of the arm - causes us to overestimate the difference that a few ounces can make.

Source of arm weight: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_does_a_human_arm_weigh

[hivemind]

I think (also LARP physics) that since the sword is much farther from your elbow and shoulder than your hand, small increases in weight there will have a much greater impact.

[Arrakis]

Both of y'all have relevant points.

This is probably a good place to start if you want to explore these ideas more rigorously: http://www.amazon.com/Theory-Applied-Robotics-Kinematics-Dynamics/dp/1441917497/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1343845771&sr=1-1&keywords=robotic+kinematics

Otherwise, PM me and set up a time for me to teach you the basics of 3D robotic linkage kinematics via tinychat or Skype or whatever.

[hivemind]

I am content to wallow in my ignorance.

[Bro'gar]

Alric, awesome video
For anyone who wants to skip to the balancing bit, its at 49:50

I just made my first swords with 1/2" fiberglass rod on 4# box and I was wondering if I had over-weighted them.
My 34" blades (OAL) are at 3" from handle and by the video have a good balance with a pivot at the tip
But I have a ~30" blade that I balanced to bottom of the blade and now I know for sure it has excess weight in it. I made a pair of maces that I tried to counterweight but I found out pretty quick that they were worthless as a balanced weapon. So it made me wonder how much or if I was over-weighing my swords and thanks to the video now I have a trick to know how

The whole thing kind of makes me wonder how people even fight with a "balanced mace" or if they just pretend its a sword.
When I fight mace I like to use the force of the hit to knock my opponent, its not anywhere near "sword play".

My new swords have definitely helped me appreciate blades though, they feel like dedicated killing machines Its crazy how you can actually "parry" with a blade instead of just blocking lol.

Finally made 1.25" blades since the rules dropped (Thanks Magnus!)
Definitely would prefer blade to sword, but I still have my chance to get tested against ultralight flip-sticks.

(Here's a pic of my new blades)

[Fayne Erving]

Ah ha! Alric that video you posted about pivots and balance was really helpful.

I made a buncha loaners bout of sch 80 .5" pvc, and a loaner red out of sch 80 3/4". I also have a twin set of fiberglass blues for when I feel like two sticking, and a power tool of a red made from kitespar that's my main weapon.

 The loaners and my fiberglass have about the same balance point, give or take a few centimeters, and the reds have nearly the same balance points. But for some reason the loaners always felt way too blade heavy while the nice ones feel perfect.

After I watched Peter Johnnson's vid, I went and wiggled my swords and sure enough, the nice kitespar red pivots right on the tip if held at the guard while the loaner reds pivot a good 8 or 9 inches back from the tip. The pivots on the blues are similar, with the loaners pivoting much further away than where he demonstrated in the video that a good single handed sword would.

That of course doesn't mean balance counts for nothing! He mentioned that a blade balanced at the hilt is essentially a useless sword while one that balanced at a good point in the blade made for a much stronger weapon.

Good resource! I reposted it on the BoR

[Ragefire]

Hmm. Maybe that's why I haven't adjusted to my new red as well I'd hoped. It's 4.5 lbs but the balance point is right at the hilt. I'm gonna to go mess with it.